People who genuinely want others to burn in Hell scare me

I'm not really much of a Christian - I go to Quaker meeting fairly regularly, but I'm agnostic. I know a lot of really decent Christians, who I consider far, far better humans than myself. But it really scares me the way that *some* Christians take such relish in their belief that non-believers and sinners are going to burn in Hell for eternity. I can understand, somewhat, when this gleeful hatred is directed towards sex offenders, since sexual offences are deemed such a loathsome transgression (although, as mentioned here before, it frustrates me that many people seem to have violated age of consent laws/ grabbed someone's breasts or genitalia 'humorously' without asking / pushed, coerced, or emotionally blackmailed their partner into sex / etc. and fail to see themselves as a sex offender) that the notion of eternal torture is perceived as just.

Yet, however heinous the sufferings and traumas that one human being might callously impose upon another in their own lifetime (whether through sexual, physical, or emotional abuse) this surely pales in comparison to the eternity of suffering of Hell. Even if a person tortured someone for 10 years... what's ten years compared to 10,000000000000000000 years?

Also, one would imagine that the sufferings imposed in Hell would be infinitely greater than those imaginable here on Earth, since the suffering would not be bound by the capacity of the brain or body to feel pain. It would be infinite suffering, while all suffering on Earth is strictly finite.

As such, the fact that I've seen lots of people review Sam Raimi's Drag Me To Hell express the belief that the female protagonist deserves her eventual punishment of eternal damnation for denying a loan extension to further her career and, later, killing a kitten, really troubles me. These are both hideous acts within the context of the film, but the idea that someone should suffer forever for such actions seems ludicrous to me.

Now, of course, if Hell and God exist, then there's really no point making like Gob and complaining about the injustice of it all. God sits outside of human judgement. He can damn anyone to Hell for whatever reason He so fancies and wouldn't care if all the people in the world voiced their indignation! But I'm not really talking about people who believe this to be the truth, but rather, people who want this to be true.

I think the Buddhist believe is preferable. Hell is just another cycle until rebirth. It may take thousands or even millions of years, but it isn't eternal. Redemption is always possible, but it's hard-won.

Insofar as I understand the Christian axioms about sin and Hell - I make no claim to represent the after life beliefs of other religions as I have not studied them.

Christian/ Judaic beliefs in Hell start from the premise of a just, loving and omnipotent God. The omnipotence is crucial to an understanding of a deity whose word brought the universe into being. By initiating creation, He made the possibility for destruction. By saying 'these things are good and fair' he implicitly created the premise of evil. By assigning us free-will to obey or disobey, he sets up a paradigm wherin we are perfectly free - free to follow or not. Kierkegaard said that 'hell is the ultimate complement to free will'

Ironically, by not being a totalitarian God and forcing us into line by taking our free will, we are allowed to disagree with God and possibly to eventually 'uncreate' ourselves by doing so. What this ultimately means is we have a universe where god's 'Yes' is absolute (the definition of omnipotence) and the temporary paradox of free will is resolved upon death (where those who say yes are ok and those who don't are assigned to hell). Hell is like an implicit part of creation. And one should not blame God for hell burning anymore than a child should blame a parent for sticking his hand in a fire after being warned not to do so. It is, pardon the levity, like observing gravity sucks. Hell isn't so about God wanting to hurt us, it is more like a physical law or constant. And that Hell's punishment is eternal is an unfortunate side effect of an intended blessing (the immortality of souls created in God's image)

Reading this website, and seeing so many painful stories and so many people wanting justice, and not recieving it illustrates a further point. The absolute nature of right and wrong. Hurting another person is always wrong. There is never any excuse or justification for doing evil.

Eternal punishment for finite crimes. About as far from any conceivable notion of justice one can get!

Many Christians (and Muslims I presume) see hell as a metaphor for a state of mind absent of God.

In fact, any clear, precise description of the whole burning/eternal torture thing after death, as a means of punishment for sin, is strangely absent from the Bible. People need to stop listening to their church ministers and strict parents!

Hell is nothing more than people's imaginations running wild.

As you mentioned there are people who aren't necessarily religious, yet have such a cynical view regarding rehabilitation or curing sicknesses of the mind, that they would rather see someone eternally punished for something that we do not yet know was completely under their control.

The advocation of eternal punishment doesn't surprise me - this is just an extension of the retributive mindset which is in of itself curiously irrational, given the evidence (and this is crucial) of what causes crime and what leads people to do harm.

Given a proper examination of the evidence, the only reason I can think of that people would want someone to be tortured, for any amount of time, is to make themselves feel good in some way. It is a way of satisfying some very primal impulses that have been somewhat suppressed (rightly) by modern civilisation. To cover this lust for blood, the retributionist may contend it's "to make the victim feel better" or to "deter crime" - well, I don't buy it, sorry.

There is enough evidence out there (thanks to the more progressive nations) that shows us how to reduce recidivism, and punishment is barely a factor. In fact, elements of the complete opposite are often crucial in rehabilitation.

Someone once said in an article comment on prison reform: "If the evidence happened to show us that giving prisoners champagne and caviare every day reduced recidivism, then that is what we should give them". This is the rational way of thinking about crime reduction, because it compels us to look at the evidence rather than succumb to clouded emotional judgements that come from the more impulsive part of the brain.

Im not sure about the heaven and hell thing myself..I was brought up in a rather strict Catholic household..Alot of bad went down in my household,as did in this Catholic grade school I was forced to go to.Anything horrid could go down bad,ANY and PLENTY of abuse,but according to all hese people,as long as you went to church every week,you wouldnt go to hell,no mattter what..I figure the church wanted as many people possible at mass every week because they collected envelopes with money..Their manmade rules were fueled by greed.I have denounced the Catholic religion..and anykind of organiized religion years ago..I now consider myself a Spriritualist.I have a deep respect for nature, and the spiritual world.

We are energy.When we die,our energy seperates from our bodies and moves on.There is no form in the spirit world.No matter if you are a human..cat..dog..bird..cow..it is just a spirit,or energy.There is also no time in the spirit world.God or a higher source sends no one to hell.We govern where we go,which plane we end up on upon death,by our actions here on the earth plane..If you are a nasty abusive bully,you will end up with the likes of your own..If you are kind..compassionate..forgiving..accepting...you will end up on a higher kinder plane with the likes of your own.

Organized religion uses the heaven/hell card to cause and instill fear into people,as it makes it easier for them to manipulate and control....Unfortunately alot of people fall victim to their lies...

I hope evryone has a beautiful week.Wishing you all peace and light.XX

Why should any afterlife be 'fair'?

Maybe the recidivist evil prosper there as well as here.

verity wrote:Why should any afterlife be 'fair'?

That's an interesting point. Life doesn't owe us a pleasant or fair existence, why should the afterlife?

I suppose the demand for fairness in our afterlife stems from the feeling that we were brought into this world without will. At least if our life is full of suffering there is the hope it will either end or respite will be found after death (so the same thing really).

If God exists and is judging us, God is aware we have human brains. The notion that judgement will be served based on a "higher form of justice" that only God can understand is akin to a cat not understanding why you punished it for excreting on the carpet. For punishment to be of any worth, the sinner must at least be able to reflect on WHY they are being punished and they surely must be given the chance to reform. Otherwise they are tragically unaware of why their punishment is so severe.

This is how we can tell the notion of God as a vengeful God originated in a time of extreme barbarism, prejudice and a complete absense of science based reasoning.

"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the lowest abyss of darkness; so many magistrates liquefying in fiercer flames than they ever kindled against the Christians; so many sages philosophers blushing in red-hot fires with their deluded pupils; so many tragedians more tuneful in the expression of their own sufferings; so many dancers tripping more nimbly from anguish then ever before from applause."

"What a spectacle. . .when the world. . .and its many products, shall be consumed in one great flame! How vast a spectacle then bursts upon the eye! What there excites my admiration? What my derision? Which sight gives me joy? As I see ... illustrious monarchs ... groaning in the lowest darkness, Philosophers ... as fire consumes them! Poets trembling before the judgment-seat of ... Christ! I shall hear the tragedians, louder-voiced in their own calamity; view play-actors ... in the dissolving flame; behold wrestlers, not in their gymnasia, but tossing in the fiery billows ... What inquisitor or priest in his munificence will bestow on you the favor of seeing and exulting in such things as these? Yet even now we in a measure have them by faith in the picturings of imagination."

[Tertullian, De Spectaculis, Chapter XXX]

Not got anything particularly clever to add here but I am a christian and I believe christians should love and not judge. it is not our place to judge and we are asked to love our neighbour. Wishing eternal damnation on them does not to me sound very loving

Cracked

And, actually....would a God of love really do that to anyone?!?!?!????? (sounds like a very satanic thought, if I've ever heard one).

Well, that's assuming if there is a god that he/she/it is indeed loving.

There's no reason (or evidence) to believe there is a caring over-seer in the universe. Morality and justice comes from the minds of those who benefit from them.

But back to the original subject matter - I think those who wish eternal suffering upon people are themselves suffering from identification with their own mind-made issues. They can't see all that hatred for what it really is and where it really comes from. They attach themselves to it as though they created it, willed it into existence. No, hatred simply arises. It bubbles up without you having to do anything. You could say it's not your hate. Just like you don't make yourself hungry, horny or need the toilet.

The mind then puts into words what you're feeling and the ego naturally feeds off these words as something it can form an identity/story around - "Look everyone! Look how not a rapist/murderer I am! Don't hate me!".