Anyone else stay up all night, distressed...

*trigger warning for statutory rape*

... reading things that make you feel even worse?

I've just spent the last couple of hours readings all the arguments online about how all child molesters should be executed (many throw in detailed descriptions of torture).

I guess people don't think in terms of case-by-case or specific ages. Just all child molesters should be tortured or killed. I find it deeply frustrating (to an extent that it almost makes me feel as though I am drowning... it really wasn't so many years ago) that if I had slept with/ statutorily raped (I don't know if I want to get into a debate as to whether someone underage can ever consent and, if they cannot, how are they able to in another state if the two states are culturally similar enough that social and mental development proceeds at the same rate?) my 16/ 17-year-old ex-girlfriend before 1989 (say we were of the previous generation) then I wouldn't have committed child abuse since it was in 1989 with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child that 16 and 17-year-olds legally become children, rather than minors. It is really bizarre to think that if I had performed precisely the same actions a couple of decades previously (at the same ages) I would not have ever sexually abused (or, indeed, ever interacted sexually with) a child.

Also, of course, if my ex had lived in a different state or we had slept together a week and a half later (!! ~ yes, I don't know why, either??) then my behaviour and relationship would be considered many thousands of times less criminal and serious.

Of course, it's all wish fulfilment - it is what it is. But, I need to stop reading these things online.

*Trigger warning for incest and abuse*

I know a lot of you in the 'Remorse' forums interacted sexually with a younger sibling when you were yourselves children and I also think it's absurd that people might think that a 12-year-old child molester (if that is even a fair descriptive) should be sentenced to death.

Perhaps some of these commentators are thinking mainly on middle-aged adults preying on those under 14... but I don't think everyone, or even the majority, makes those kind of distinctions. Personally, I don't feel like I am as reprehensible as someone who, say, molests their 8-year-old daughter, but at the same time, I do not feel like I am in a position to make that kind of value call. It is really confusing.

Yes, this is something that happens to me. My worries are peppered around the site, but it boils down to this -

Did I have something bad in mind whilst bouncing a baby by the seat of her nappy, seven or eight years ago?

The answer is, and has been for nearly three months (since the apparent memory of it appeared), 'I don't know'. Immediately, I set out online to find out what would count as all those big words - molestation, abuse, assault. I don't even know how true the memory is, but there I am, reading people's opinions on abuse and getting very scared.

I've also been trying think of other things to feel guilty about. You mention sibling interaction, and, though I've never explicitly had any sexual contact with my siblings, this did come to mind and worry me. A brief, mild physical sensation whilst playing around with my brothers when I was 12 or 13 - a normal part of growing up, something harmless to be filed away and forgotten as I move into adulthood, or technically child-on-child abuse? If I deliberately hugged my brother in such a way as to trigger the sensation, was I sexually abusing him? You could paint it all sorts of ways, with all sorts of words - power, dominance, preying. Or - harmless, innocent, curiosity. Puberty is a confusing time, but did I overstep some line if I used my brother to achieve a sensation? When I phrase it like that, it sounds like it. But if a child hit his sibling, and caused pain, would that be carried on into adult life as an example of assault? No.

It's just because this is centred on sexuality, I think. That's why I'm so anxious. No real-world issue is as simple as black and white, but reading people's views on anything with the word 'sex' in the title implies that plenty disagree.

I don't want to belittle sexual crime, or give myself any leeway (and I've felt very, very guilty over these worries), but I've wondered whether my researching all of these precise legal terms, and checking to see how people feel about juvenile offenders, is like Googling about brain tumours when you've got a headache. Nobody out there in the world is or was harmed by my actions - is that enough, and are these just hazy memories I should let go, or might still I be guilty of some crime? I know there are people who, if I opened up to them with my worries, would get pretty reactionary and gladly see me hurt. There's the infamous example of a riled-up group burning down a paediatrician's house because they mistook his title for 'paedophile'.

As for your own issue, I'll just say this - here, in the UK, the age of consent is 16. I know a 19/20-year-old girl who, until recently, was in a sexual relationship with a 15-year-old guy. She's certainly lost no sleep over it. I'm not giving this as a model for your own attitude, I'm just bringing an example to the table. You seem a very considerate man, and the person you consider your victim has assured you that all is well. Maybe that's just how life works, sometimes.

I struggle with the same 'moral event horizon' worries, though. Did I cross it eight years ago without realising? I'm never usually deontological about stuff, but was there something contained within my actions (even though I don't know what one of them was) that's tainted my identity for the rest of my life? I don't usually go in for any of that mystical-sounding lark, but being on the inside of a worry like this gets me considering all sorts of things.

It's been less than three months and it's as if my whole life has changed. I never, ever thought I'd be posting on psychology forums or visiting counsellors over worries that I've acted in a sexually abusive way. That does not tally with the person I thought I was. I even dread my counselling meetings because they make me feel worse. What happened to me?

It's very strange to consider that I might have another six or seven decades of life to go through. What if I'm stuck in this mode forever? I might never get back to how I was last year. That nobody has been harmed, or even made aware (I can't imagine the baby noticing anything different to a normal playful bounce, and my brother won't have realised that I experienced any sensation), by what I'm worrying about is the fuel, as it were, that gets me through each day.

-- Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:29 pm --

Oh, and I forgot to say - you've spoken on here of having OCD, I think. My girlfriend suggests that I seek a diagnosis, just in case I have the same - she feels it might explain my currently obsessive drive to find things to feel guilty over.

Do you speak to a therapist about your concerns?

This...

sprock wrote:Also, of course, if my ex had lived in a different state or we had slept together a week and a half later (!! ~ yes, I don't know why, either??) then my behaviour and relationship would be considered many thousands of times less criminal and serious.

...is the key point here. How arbitrary these laws are.

I was talking to my gf about something similar the other night. She knows a couple who had a child together - the guy was 20, the girl was 15. They, and their family, had to make a vow of secrecy over who the father is. Her then friend (who was also 15) had to stand in as the legal father to protect the biological father from prosecution. It's a complete mess, but why should it be?

My gf does not see what the problem is. They loved each other. It was not rape. She certainly doesn't think the father should be tortured or executed.

In my opinion the people who bleet on about hanging and flogging, regardless of context, are completely irrational, self righteous, reactionary and (here's the controversial part) need their instinctive violent urges satiated in some way. This is their justified outlet for such urges.

Bertrand Russell, one of the greatest rational minds of recent history, had a lot to say about these hard wired, violent urges in us all. We need to see the bigger picture - the nuances of life and human behaviour, the deep rooted psychological causes of what we humans call crime.

When we can rise above our animal consciousness, the thought of execution and torture should be utterly disgusting and anyone who advocates it needs to take a serious look at what kind of mind creates that lustful desire for vengeance.

I'm just thankful people like that have zero say in what constitutes justice in this country, and hopefully never will, as long as human consciousness continues to evolve.

sprock wrote:Of course, it's all wish fulfilment - it is what it is. But, I need to stop reading these things online.

Yes, you need to stop reading the rantings of emotionally unstable minds who see the world in black and white. These people have no real solution for the crimes for which they demand such cold retribution. They don't understand, nor do they care, how the combination of genetics and social environment ultimately creates the perfect conditions for such crimes to occur. They ignore all the scientific evidence that unravels the complexities of so-called criminal acts.

They believe in "good and evil" as objective truisms.

They don't believe people can awaken and change.

They believe punishment, as opposed to public protection and rehabilitation, is somehow a necessary part of our justice system, when countries like Sweden have shown us there is a better way, for both the criminal and society.

The truth is, their cries for bloody vengeance is nothing more than an opportunity for them to satisfy their primitive, animal lust for violence in a socially acceptable way. They would love to be able to take out their own pent up anger and insecurity on a "monster" who makes them feel better about their own, inauthentic, ego-driven lives.

I'm not blaming these people for their emotional outbursts. They are just slaves to that part of the mind. They let their emotions cloud their reasoned judgement.

We can only hope they either awaken to and accept reason and science as part of their notion of justice, or die out as a people, because frankly society has no place for such myopic and medieval concepts of retribution. We must evolve beyond that.

Sorry about getting a little self-indulgent in my reply, there. I only meant to relate to what you were saying, got a bit carried away.

One thing to remember when reading vitriolic online public opinion is that you can just as easily find comments calling for the torture and death of gay people. Or similarly charged racism and sexism. It's best left well alone.

Agreed - leave them to vent their hatred in a safe way (on the internet). Remember that a lot of it is just that - venting.

bakert - I know you were replying to Sprock but your post didn't come across as self indulgent. It does seem like you're thinking this into something much bigger than it is. The mind can be cruel! I've found, with my own personal feelings of remorse, when the unhelpful thoughts arise, just step back from them and try to observe them without judgement. Easier said than done (it requires practice). We often need to remind ourselves that they are just thoughts. Like you said, nobody was hurt. What is left? A thought.

Thanks, epiphany, that final sentiment has really helped me.

And sprock, I've learned recently that a friend with OCD had a relationship with a 16-year-old when he was 21. Though that's perfectly legal within these particular borders, he feels similarly remorseful - and he knows that this intensity of feeling is, in part, down to his OCD. He's also one of the most moralistic, friendly, patient, intelligent, and considerate people I know. A very valuable presence.

Some thoughts (well, questions) that came up for me last night when I was at my lowest...

Why do I torture my self?

Who is the "I" doing the torturing and who is the "self" being tortured? Why the duality?

Why do I torture my self?

What is my past, really, when I take off the tinted glasses and take a closer look?

Does my past stop me from just being in this moment?

What is stopping me from accepting and being at peace with my negative feelings, right now?

Why am I running away from or trying to resist the negative feelings when they arise?

Does resisting them make them go away?

What am I so afraid of feeling?

Why would a feeling scare me?

Is the feeling, in its purity, hurting me or is it my thoughts about the feeling that hurt me?

Can I welcome that feeling and accept it when it arises?

Can I let that feeling go?

Is the feeling me or am I simply witnessing, hosting, observing it?

Does the feeling, when it arises, have to be linked to some story? What happens when I take away the story?

Where does the story come from?

Where is the story unfolding?

What power does the story truly have over me right now in this moment?

I always reach the same point around here, like a singularity where the "laws of the mind" break down. There's a great sense of peace here. Not happiness. Not sadness. Just acceptance.

bakert wrote:I know a 19/20-year-old girl who, until recently, was in a sexual relationship with a 15-year-old guy. She's certainly lost no sleep over it.

This makes me think of 'if a tree falls in the forest and no-one hears it...'

Accordingly to UK law, the young woman is a child abuser and guilty of the UK-equivalent of statutory rape of a child. However, presumably neither she, nor the guy, label the matter in this way. How their label their relationship doesn't charge the legal fact of its illegality, nor of the fact that a 15-year-old is a child. However, if neither of them choose to frame the relationship as 'child abuse' then the idea that it is, will never enter public discourse. Decades from now, that woman will die and no obituary will call her a sex offender; there will be no articles in the press... but the crime is no less a crime for not being noticed or reported. I actually feel that a criminal who goes to jail should be afforded more forgiveness than one who doesn't; however, it is often the process of going to jail itself and being given the label of 'criminal' or 'sex offender' that causes the hatred and outrage rather than the act in and of itself.

Indicative of this, are the comments I see on articles on the age of consent in which posters cheerfully relate, 'Huh! When I got with my wife she was underage so I guess I committed statutory rape... there you go!' without having to internalise the fact that they are sex criminals. It's like when I was discussing child pornography with a friend and he said, 'Well having sexual pictures of 16-year-olds isn't illegal in Britain because it's the age of consent' and I had to inform him that 'no, actually that is child pornography and highly illegal'. He said this because he had sexual photos of his girlfriend from when she was 16. But instead of being disturbed by this fact or seeing himself as a child abuser, he just shrugged this off with a laugh.

How can these people who admit to having sex with a child (anyone under 18) or looking at sexual images of a child, then go on to live with themselves and no feel crushing guilt and horror and shame due to the fact every day of their lives?? It feels like there is a part of their brain in which they are able to make 'common sensical' exceptions for themselves (i.e. 'It wasn't really child abuse because...') in spite of the law.

Obviously, I don't think my friend or the commentators with younger wives are evil per se but the are - ipso facto - criminals and categorically the same as those who end up in jail for their crimes (if we take their admissions as truth).

Apparently the average age to lose one's virginity is around your 17th birthday:
http://liveeternity.blogspot.co.uk/2007/12/loss-of-virginity-world-map.html

That means millions and millions of people are having sex with children under 18. If they are under 18 themselves, I can understand how they can give themselves an exception ('I was a child myself') but for those over 18 who have sex with/ statutorily rape a child under 18 (and even saying 'I had sex with a child' doesn't sound good) I don't understand how they can push this to the back of their mind.

Do you speak to a therapist about your concerns?

She had a relationship with a 26-year-old when she was 16, so she doesn't really see the concern. Legal in Britain though so I guess she isn't a victim, legally speaking. It complicates the client-therapist relationship somewhat in this case.

Anyway, sorry for the rant and thank you for your insightful comment. It really doesn't sound like you committed any abuse yourself. I wouldn't say your behaviour was whatsoever sexual.