Do you ever find yourself...

... reading through newspaper stories about articles recounting incidents vaguely resembling the one/s you feel guilty about; then, reading all the comments to try to work out how harshly the public would judge you? I do this a lot and while it is probably a lot more meaningless than actually asking people outright about the degree of guilt you should be feeling/ whether you have passed the 'moral event horizon', I still do it.

The recent case I've been obsessively reading about is particularly upsetting (and probably triggering for some) is the Nattalie Muir murder case from a couple of years back. Basically, she was a 21-year-old who got pregnant from 15-year-old boy and then decided to have an abortion. He and two friends then murdered her. This site claims Muir was the kid's teacher, but I'm not sure if this has been confirmed. The boy would have only been a year or two younger than my girlfriend (16/ 17) when I was 21, so I guess I associate myself with Muir when reading.

http://thestir.cafemom.com/in_the_news/125010/15yearold_boy_kills_girlfriend_for?next=1#comments

While I understand that a 15-year-old categorically cannot consent and that the 21-year-old was thus sexually exploiting/ abusing him, doubly so if she was in fact his teacher (although at 21 I'm not sure - maybe she was a classroom assistant) and so this is a case of a victim victim killing his rapist, I'm not sure if I believe that the murder was justified by the 6 years age gap, if the relationship was non-forcible or coercive. I can understand the boy's anger and I certainly feel it is reasonable that he was only sentenced to a few years, but *so many* of the commentators have expressed pleasure that Muir was killed and that it was wholly deserved.

I know I am in the situation where my ex-girlfriend (of more than 5 years back) does not consider our relationship to have been child molestation and is not distressed after the fact, but I still suspect that many of the 'Cafe Mom' readers would also take pleasure in my own death and argue that I do not deserve to live. I find it hard to dismiss this stance because who am I to say they are wrong?

I don't know. Do you guys feel that Muir deserved to be killed? Where do we draw the line concerned who deserves death when it comes to statutory rape/ non-forcible rape? Does every perpetrator? Does that mean that someone in Madagasca who is sexual with someone under 21 should be killed since that is the age of consent in that country? Likewise, Tunisia at 20.

Maybe it depends on the experience and feelings of the victim as to whether such an act is justified. That said, all crime and abuse is necessarily a social act, so the victim is not just the individual directly affected, but every member of that society. It is so difficult to know when opinions vary and there seems to be no objective truth on that matter.

I have definitely had similar experiences to what you're describing. I have read through the comments on articles about things that might somehow be similar to things I've done and I've worried how those ppl would judge me. And I always feel like CRAP afterwards, and I've wondered whether I deserve to go to jail or die. I do think it's important to remember that most comments on anything on the internet are usually extremely insensitive and often downright evil no matter what the topic is. Reading comments on just about anything can make you depressed.

Anyways, I just wanted to say that I don't think a sexual relationship between a 20 year old and a 16 year old is wrong. It doesn't automatically become evil if the person you're involved with is below the age of consent where you live. If you had your relationship in Canada (where I live) or one of many many many other countries in the world it would have been perfectly legal. It's an utter fallacy to think that something is evil simply because it is against the law based on some technicality. There are many countries where homosexuality is illegal, demonized by society and even punishable by death. Do gay ppl in those countries deserve their horrible punishment simply because that's what the law says where they live? ###$ no.

Does the person in the article deserve to be killed? No. And I feel I can say that with absolute certainty. Do you deserve to be killed? Absolutely 100% no. No no no no no no no no no no no (I can't state it emphatically enough). If anything anyone else says makes you think otherwise, they are ignorant. If any sane, moral person knew your situation and knew what kind of person you are, they would never say that you deserve to die, or anything close to it.

Your former girlfriend is fine and thinks you should be able to move on. Why should you be punished by the legal system or society when your girlfriend, the only person relevant to your supposed "crime", is fine and doesn't want you to be punished? Hers is the only opinion that matters. I wish I could just flick a switch in your head with my words and convince you that everything is okay, but I know I can't. So just take my word for it that you deserve to be able to move on with your life.

Thank you. That was kind of reassuring and it is good to know that I am not the only person who has trawled comments like that. It is hard for me to say (because it is so difficult to escape one's own brain) but I think that having OCD might be one of the reasons why I can't flip that switch, but it is really compassionate for you to say that you would if you could! Honestly, thank you!

It's odd because for the first couple of years my concern was far more about my ex-girlfriend but then when I got in contact and we emailed back and forth and she said she was fine and she didn't consider herself a victim of molestation and thought I was pretty young myself and that, while the relationship was a bad idea and she had felt uncomfortable, that I was taking it all way too seriously... for the rest of the evening after the email when she told me to move on, I felt lighter than air. But then, by the next day, I had moved on to thinking that it is what the public think is right and deserved that is important, rather than my ex-girlfriend specifically.

I think one of the problems is also that here in Britain at the moment (and for lots of last year) there have been a lot of grim, high-profile sexual abuse cases and I end up putting myself in the same category as some really vile offenders.

Damn brains are complex things.

P.S. I'm glad you also didn't feel that the young woman deserved to die. I think the relationship was probably wrong, especially if it started when the boy was 14 and I think a lot of the anger came from the idea of her being a teacher (not sure if that was true though) and the fact that a lot of the commentators must have been mothers with their own children. The public scares me though because it seems so unforgiving. But really, I know that "the mass" does not exist and that everyone is really an individual just trying to lead their own lives.

Thanks again.

-- Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:21 am --

*Trigger warning

Erg. I've just been reading obsessively about Gary Linton, a passenger injured in the 7/7 bombing who turned out to be a violent child rapist, having raped two girls in a horrible gang attack when he was 17, back in the 1980s. The Daily Mail and Sun and several other papers were understandably outraged that Linton had become the face of the victims of the bombing, receiving more than £100,000 compensation, despite having been rightly convicted of gang rape.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1198370/Rapist-lost-leg-7-7-blast-meets-Cameron-guest-honour-memorial-event.html

His victim, Sophie, was retraumatized by the courage and understandably angry that he was casting himself as a 'victim' and receiving money from what happened to him, when his own hideous crime (quite possibly more hideous than the bombing he fell victim to) had cost him only a few years in jail.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1503980/Justice-is-about-him-being-branded-as-a-rapist-who-robbed-me-of-my-childhood.html

I don't know if my crime was as vile as Linton's. To be honest, I'm not sure if you can usefully draw degrees or attempt to separate out sexual offences. Abuse is abuse and rape is rape.

I would hate to be like Linton. The main reason I stay alive is because my death would harm those close to me, even though I sincerely believe I do not deserve to live. The law would not sentence me to death, also. So, I believe I have some right to life. However, I am scared of being like Linton. I really hate any compliment or praise and make sure to gently, but firmly remind my partner that I am a child abuser when she calls me a 'nice' or 'good' person. Obviously, I have told the majority of my friends and relatives about my behaviour, but the fact is, there are so many people I meet on a day-to-day basis who do not know. When I am interacting with someone through work and they seemed pleased with my performance, or when I receive a smile from a cashier as they bag my food, or even a smile on the street, I am filled with such hatred and self-loathing, as I don't want to lie to all these people through omission. I hate the idea that these people are bestowing warmth or kindness towards me when they would likely loathe or maybe even want me executed if they knew about my crime/s.

I think the best think is to work humbly and quietly and try to keep my head down and live respectfully and compassionate with those who know about my behaviour but still continue to be my friends/ care about me. Sometimes I feel I should cut out all of these people from my life because I feel that it is morally wrong that I should have any friends or family, but I also know that caring about me and being part of my life is fundamentally their own choice and that, as long as they are fully informed, I should accept this, as much as I can.

-- Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:24 am --

I'm trying not to post too much, but if I am honest, it would be good to know people's thoughts. I'm going to try to help others on the board too when I can
(I find it hard offering advice because I'm so scared of putting myself in a position of a role-model or 'someone who should be listened to', but I also want to return some of the help people provide on these boards towards me) +

sprock wrote:I don't know if my crime was as vile as Linton's. To be honest, I'm not sure if you can usefully draw degrees or attempt to separate out sexual offences. Abuse is abuse and rape is rape.

You have to stop doing this to yourself. Seriously. The fact that you can compare what you did to this Linton fellow is telling of how traumatized you are over the ordeal. You and Linton are worlds apart in terms of intent and lasting consequences.

Linton's victim is still feeling pain and her attacker shows little remorse.

The person you had relations with has (from the sound of things) gone blue in the face trying to reassure you that she is simply not bothered. You have to acknowledge the difference that makes between your so-called "crime" and Linton's very serious crime.

Take comfort in the fact that you have not ruined someone's life. That, to me, has always been the key factor in determining a true crime and I'm thankful that the courts acknowledge "long term damage" as a major factor in sentencing.

Murder - long term damage, obviously for the victim but also the victim's families and friends who will never see that person again.

Rape - long term damage because the victim will relive the event for the rest of their life. Nightmares, depression, even suicidal thoughts.

Can you honestly say what you have does has caused long term damage to anyone? If not, then what is so reprehensible about what you did?

Who is REALLY suffering because of it? You are, my friend. And why do you suffer? Because you think you did wrong. But whether right or wrong, you caused no suffering. You caused no lasting pain.

Even if you had caused suffering, of course there are degrees of criminality. There are always degrees, even in the eyes of criminal law. That's why some people get sentenced to years in prison and others might have most of their sentenced suspended/on probabtion.

You did not commit a crime in any moral sense. There was no victim. Move on my friend.

Tell yourself over and over again "THERE WAS NO VICTIM".

Nobody's life has ended (physically or mentally) because of your actions. You have not caused any suffering. Be at peace with yourself.

That was kind of reassuring and thank you for the responses over the three threads. The fact that my ex is well and happy, seemingly, is wonderful and I am really glad that she seems to be having a fulfilling life from our brief exchanges a year or two ago. She's a great person and startlingly creative and I am really heartened to know she has moved on.

The thing I find hardest is probably the fact that I know there are some people who would never forgive me. The fact remains that statutory rape is a form of rape and the incident in which I touched her sexually after she said she wasn't in the mood to be sexual would, under the FBI's updated definition, probably be classified as rape - or at the very least, molestation. I think there was harm at the time due to that. She did seem glum and annoyed and I definitely think she felt pressured to go along with things. She has never said she felt raped or abused when I have opened up that conversation, but at the time she asked me later that evening, "What does everything have to end up being sexual?" which really indicated that she had just wanted to spoon. She didn't cry and seemed okay the next day, but I do think that speaks more to her fortitude and strength than anything about the seriousness of the act.

I don't know. Maybe more than anything it's the horror that I could do something so awful to someone I genuinely believed I cared about/ loved. Personally, I do not think I deserve death, but I also don't know what kind of life I deserve. It's a weird limbo.

EDIT: The main good that has come out of the relationship (in addition to my volunteering and activist work, perhaps, but it hardly makes up for things) is that I am now in a relationship with a young woman who suffered a worse version of my relationship with my ex i.e. it started online and she felt pressured and IMO was sexually abused and exploited, but found it hard to communicate that at the time because she wasn't used to being in a relationship and the guy was much older (late 20s when she was late teen). This guy doesn't seem remorseful at all, in fact, quite the opposite, sadly. However, because I can relate that relationship to my own past one, it has enabled me to be very careful and gentle and supportive and she is slowly working through the trauma and knowing that she can move on. That keeps me going.