For guys who can't get dates

encourage men to be wusses

I'd like to know what this exactly means. My guess is, you're saying that a man who can express emotion and be able to cry is weak?
If this is what you're saying, then herein lies a global problem.
To be able to show emotion and cry shows strength, not weakness. The only reason men stop themselves from expressing their feelings and crying is because they're afraid of judgement. That's fear, not strength (fear is synonymous with weakness). All the STUPID people who historically said, 'a man MUST NEVER cry' have not only killed the passion that human beings are made of and forever seeking, they have, as a result, removed a man's ability to identify his own feelings. To do so means that society is creating insensitive zombies, which let me tell you...is REALLY SCARY. I can't tell you how many men I've met (platonically through work etc, not dating) that are SO removed from accountability of their actions because they've become mutated, that it borders mental psychosis. You only have to look to some of the CEOs who have destroyed companies like Enron and Onetell to see what I'm talking about. Enron, particularly: their whole ethos was based on pushing workers beyond ethical boundaries, based on a man who lost all feeling and rationality as a result, which ended an entire city of workers.

Not being able to identify feelings and then show them, is not only poison to the soul, it's dangerous

barely any tips for guys out there

No one needs tips. It's all #######4. The best tip is "be yourself".
Ask yourself, how would you like to be treated? Take your answer and apply it to others. It's so simple it's embarrassing if you ask me.

Interesting about what you've said in relation to "nice guys". From what you've written, it seems that you're saying you're not stable based on the fact you were a 'nice guy' for 10 years. Right? Lol

Seriously, people are baggaged in all sorts of ways: nice, not nice, whatever. Those finer details don't come out until you spend time with someone. AND, don't forget that sometimes, baggage only occurs because of how you've treated the other. Your behaviour may well be the root of their baggage. The MOST important question I think that everyone should ask themselves when in relationships (during and after) is, "how did I contribute to that outcome?"

NEVER assume that you didn't contribute in some way. To do so is total delusion.

sweetcheeks wrote:

some genuine nice guys they don't have the courage to ask a girl out.

That's a shame, but they need to GET OVER IT!

I can only speak for myself naturally, but I bet I represent global sentiment on this one. Weak men are unattractive for a couple of reasons:

1. If they can't ask you out, then they sure as hell won't be able to proactively contribute to the nurturing of the relationship. By that I mean, making decisions on where to go for dinner, taking initiative in telling the girl how they feel and generally, taking the reigns. Women are the ones who bring children into the world and raise them. They DO NOT want their partner to be an additional child.

2. If a man is weak, then he'll be equally as weak should he get seduced by an 'outsider' should the opportunity arise. THIS is the NUMBER ONE factor for me. If a guy has no balls, then he doesn't know what he wants, which means he has little, if any, resistance to the things that can damage the relationship. This one IS KEY for me, and I'll bet for many, many women.

Most women are actually, really strong creatures, so the LAST thing they want is a weak man. Weakness = problems, uncertainty, subserviency, and a list of negative behaviours that lead to negative OUTCOMES.

You know the old saying..."NO PAIN, NO GAIN".

It was devised for a reason.

Some cannot 'get over it' by themselves. Ever stop to wonder why their confidence is so low? Didn't think so because people don't care. That's the problem: PEOPLE DON'T CARE!! They only care about themselves. One can't get up one morning and say "I'm going to have confidence! I'm going to have self-esteem." No it doesn't work that way.

Their confidence is low because of the way they've been treated in their lives. They need help boosting their spirits and the way to do that is to reach out to them. Let them know it's ok to be human beings. We all have feelings and emotions right? If you do that their self-esteem will increase. But if you can't be bothered, then don't tell them to "get over it". It will only make them feel worse.

This is why murders and suicides happen. Not because they're "crazy" or "selfish" but because they've been denied one of the most important basic human needs: companionship.

sweetcheeks wrote:

encourage men to be wusses

I'd like to know what this exactly means. My guess is, you're saying that a man who can express emotion and be able to cry is weak?

barely any tips for guys out there

No one needs tips. It's all #######4. The best tip is "be yourself".

Huh? Why are you judging me and calling me unstable? I was agreeing with you.

The guy you typically described as WEAK in your last post are what people call "nice guys." I'm not saying anything that has to do with be able to be a normal well adjusted human being with feelings. You've never apparently been with a nice guy then. The guys who walk around pretending to be gentlemen but are unable to lead and deep down have an axe to grind and think of women as bitches. That's what society unknowingly refers to nice guys typically.

Admitting my past faults and weakeness makes me soulless wtf?

Be yourself is badly misinterpreted. Women give the worst dating tips to men so I understand why you think like this. The idea behind being yourself is to be genuine that I agree. But men shouldn't get tips? That's stupid. At what point does receiving tips and bettering yourself stop making you, who you are?

You're being counter-productive to your own argument you realize that? The type of quality men that your'e describing as opposed to the weak men in your posts, are basically what I'm saying men should learn to become. Do you like real men who takes it by the lead or not?

Every person has to grow as a human being. Not everyone is socially gifted in this world, especially brilliant men. Tips, or self-help books, material and all that help level the playing field for men. There's nothing wrong with them except your judgementalism. Stop acting like a know it all . Men are only trying to become better to please YOU women so why put them down for trying?

One can't get up one morning and say "I'm going to have confidence! I'm going to have self-esteem." No it doesn't work that way.

O.K...first things first: I'm not trying to offend you guys, and writing never, NEVER really gets meaning across. In fact statistically, people only gain 7% meaning from written words. The rest comes from body language and tone. So sorry, not meaning to offend anyone. Crap, should've known that was coming. First things first...

Quote above: I disagree totally. You CAN get up and say, O.K, today I'm going to have confidence. We ALL have historical cob webs, and I have some stories that are doozies about my childhood, but I will NEVER use that as an excuse to stop growing. In fact, the quote above is exactly what I did about 1.5 years ago. For those of you who aren't bored shitless with my story, or who don't know it, here is one small snippet.

I've wanted the same guy for the last 22 years. He is a typical example of what you refer to: a guy who can't ask a girl out, well at least me. He couldn't do it 22 years ago, even though he initially let me know he was interested AND telling me he was attracted to me. When I responded, he back peddled FAST! He clearly panicked and pushed me away. AND even though he did reveal interest in me, instead of phoning me after having pushed me away, all he kept doing AND STILL keeps doing (22 years later) is ring me and then hang up. He uses other cryptic strategies too, but I'm not going into those. I wanted him so much, and all he has done is lead me on. There was a few years break and when I found him, I decided to go back and try. I've known all along that he has issues, blind Freddy can see it. However, out came the empathy, out came the caring and understanding part of me. AND SO...as scared as I was, I MADE THE DECISION to go to him and just smile. It worked, he responded : I then took it one step further. I decided to then talk to him, and so I told him I thought he was lovely. I can't emphasise ENOUGH how difficult that was for me. I was literally trembling as I said it. Well guess what I got in return? He went from the warmest and loveliest smiles to "arsehole extradinaire" He turned on me. For what? For telling him he was lovely? WTF???

And so my life has been full of many trembling moments, and you know what? At the end of the day, what is going to win? My fear or my getting over it? There is NO WAY I will surrender to a head full of #######4. No one gives a dam whether you're successful or not. No one will pat you on the back for having failed, but they WILL remember you for having tried and succeeded.

The only reason people withdraw from truth and strength is because of choice. You have two choices: be successful and happy, or be afraid, thus unsuccessful and unhappy. There are ONLY TWO choices. Which side you choose is your decision. Telling yourself that it's not easy is a cop out. It's an excuse to stay damaged. That I know, because I've lived it. You either sink or swim, there is nothing in between. Anyone who wants to keep telling themselves and others that you need to "go gently" is deluding themselves. AND, to further support this, I'll add the fact that I used to be a counsellor in the 90s and listened to hundreds of problems. Perhaps that's hardened me up to a point, but I used to hear the same sh** over and over AND OVER. Most of these people didn't want help, they wanted someone else to wave a magic wand and somehow miraculously heal them. Well guess what? Those who kept going down the path of ..."oh god, I need to go slowly, please be more empathic" NEVER changed! They stayed swimming in their own emotional #######4 because THAT was the choice they made. They didn't want to change, they wanted to swim in self pity, forever throwing verbal rocks at those who tried to help them. Sorry, but my life experience has hardened me up, not because I've run out of breath, but because I KNOW that change only happens when you face fear, and DO IT ANYWAY. There is no other way.


AND, as the my 22yr clayton's love affair? I'm at the point where I know I'm up against a brick wall. This guy clearly has the same opinion as the one's I'm reading here. I don't doubt for a minute that he too, is one who would think, " oh god...it needs to done slowly, I need to feel when the time is right: I need you to do X, Y & S so I can go to the next step." I've been so patient with this mindset, but I know that it's no better than those with whom I spoke in the 90s that NEVER actually wanted to change. They used the "please take it slow" excuse to remain damaged. It's a choice, and not one that I agree with. So, in a nutshell, I'm moving on from him, because I know that NO AMOUNT of empathy or being nice with him will work. He spits in the face of empathy, always! It's a win/loose battle for me.

I'll come back a bit later to add to the next post.

A great debate and topic I think. BTW, this is only my opinion based on my experiences. I'm NOT judging anyone, I'm reflecting. Perceived judgement is a fear. Given I don't know anyone here, how could I possibly be judging? AND even if I DID know you guys, I still wouldn't be judging.

Huh? Why are you judging me and calling me unstable? I was agreeing with you.

Hi Ken...I don't get it. I wasn't judging you, nor did I say anywhere, or suggest that you're unstable. I'm following "your lead" in the written conversation. This is the problem with writing alone: the message gets twisted and the REAL meaning isn't conveyed. How on earth can I say you're unstable when I don't know you from a bar of soap? It's not even logical.

I'm not sure that all "nice guys" are unstable, or "nice girls" for that matter. This is a different debate. There is nothing wrong with being nice, it's what we all want right? No one wants an arsehole or a bitch for a partner. That's ludicrous

It's interesting how people put their own interpretations onto what they read. And YES, I'm no exception. Perhaps I do this. Psychologists have a great trick they use during couple counselling. They ask Him & Her to sit opposite each other. The shrink then asks Him a question. He answers the question with detail. When the shrink asks Her to repeat back what He just said, guess what happens? She gives an entirely different perspective, thus totally incorrect interpretation of what He said. It's a great tool to show how much we choose our own pathologies over reality.

Whoops, need to run but I'll be back. This is a great topic.

sweetcheeks wrote:

Huh? Why are you judging me and calling me unstable? I was agreeing with you.

Hi Ken...I don't get it. I wasn't judging you, nor did I say anywhere, or suggest that you're unstable. I'm following "your lead" in the written conversation. This is the problem with writing alone: the message gets twisted and the REAL meaning isn't conveyed. How on earth can I say you're unstable when I don't know you from a bar of soap? It's not even logical.

I'm not sure that all "nice guys" are unstable, or "nice girls" for that matter. This is a different debate. There is nothing wrong with being nice, it's what we all want right? No one wants an arsehole or a bitch for a partner. That's ludicrous

It's interesting how people put their own interpretations onto what they read. And YES, I'm no exception. Perhaps I do this. Psychologists have a great trick they use during couple counselling. They ask Him & Her to sit opposite each other. The shrink then asks Him a question. He answers the question with detail. When the shrink asks Her to repeat back what He just said, guess what happens? She gives an entirely different perspective, thus totally incorrect interpretation of what He said. It's a great tool to show how much we choose our own pathologies over reality.

Whoops, need to run but I'll be back. This is a great topic.

I'm about to go to sleep soon and I"ll get back to this too. I just want to say, you fell in love with a typical, "nice guy."

Contrary to popular belief, a non-nice guy doesn't equal an asshole sweety. Nice and assholes are just usually two sides of the same coin :p. Do you think I date bitches now because I am bitter over nice girls?

A nice person doesn't mean they're good (for you). There's plenty of nice people in the PD forums, but we should all know how shallow the word "nice" is.

I go for women who are real, without being bitter themselves. I don't want them to smile, and agree to every thing that goes wrong. They're just holding it inside passively, only to fully aggress at you later and feel indignant that they're kindness wasn't appreciated. I'm sure you've been through it too.

Oh, O.K; now I understand what you were saying. Hmmm, is X a nice guy? Who knows.
To be honest, I still don't think he is the asshole that he wants me to believe. I think he is the opposite, and what I see when he freaks out, and pushes me away, is really a psychological dissonance. In other words, he grapples between wanting to be honest, but not knowing how. It's kind of like a ladybird stuck between a cobweb and a fly's front door. She doesn't know how to open the door to get out, so she battles within the cobweb, because she is stuck.

You know, we all have cob webs, the question is not whether we as women or men choose those who are real. I think we are ALL real, it's whether or not we love someone in the true sense to want to work through the issues. There is NO SUCH thing as "issue free" people, I don't think. We are all different with different experiences. The question is how we are prepared to deal with those issues. People need to get rid of their 'ideal' types. At the end of the day, it's all about chemistry. That is the most precious gift that life offers. Like any raw resource, we need to find it, dig it out and farm it before it's ready for use. The problem is...too many people expect to land themselves the perfect product: plucked, ploughed and packaged on the shelf, ready to purchase and enjoy.

You know, it's not television that ruins us, it's too many supermarkets if you ask me.
I'd love to know the psychology of the person who invented 'dried apples'. AND, who said sugar is really white?

Ciao.

sweetcheeks wrote:

One can't get up one morning and say "I'm going to have confidence! I'm going to have self-esteem." No it doesn't work that way.

O.K...first things first: I'm not trying to offend you guys, and writing never, NEVER really gets meaning across. In fact statistically, people only gain 7% meaning from written words. The rest comes from body language and tone. So sorry, not meaning to offend anyone. Crap, should've known that was coming. First things first...

Quote above: I disagree totally. You CAN get up and say, O.K, today I'm going to have confidence. We ALL have historical cob webs, and I have some stories that are doozies about my childhood, but I will NEVER use that as an excuse to stop growing. In fact, the quote above is exactly what I did about 1.5 years ago. For those of you who aren't bored shitless with my story, or who don't know it, here is one small snippet.

I've wanted the same guy for the last 22 years. He is a typical example of what you refer to: a guy who can't ask a girl out, well at least me. He couldn't do it 22 years ago, even though he initially let me know he was interested AND telling me he was attracted to me. When I responded, he back peddled FAST! He clearly panicked and pushed me away. AND even though he did reveal interest in me, instead of phoning me after having pushed me away, all he kept doing AND STILL keeps doing (22 years later) is ring me and then hang up. He uses other cryptic strategies too, but I'm not going into those. I wanted him so much, and all he has done is lead me on. There was a few years break and when I found him, I decided to go back and try. I've known all along that he has issues, blind Freddy can see it. However, out came the empathy, out came the caring and understanding part of me. AND SO...as scared as I was, I MADE THE DECISION to go to him and just smile. It worked, he responded : I then took it one step further. I decided to then talk to him, and so I told him I thought he was lovely. I can't emphasise ENOUGH how difficult that was for me. I was literally trembling as I said it. Well guess what I got in return? He went from the warmest and loveliest smiles to "arsehole extradinaire" He turned on me. For what? For telling him he was lovely? WTF???

And so my life has been full of many trembling moments, and you know what? At the end of the day, what is going to win? My fear or my getting over it? There is NO WAY I will surrender to a head full of #######4. No one gives a dam whether you're successful or not. No one will pat you on the back for having failed, but they WILL remember you for having tried and succeeded.

The only reason people withdraw from truth and strength is because of choice. You have two choices: be successful and happy, or be afraid, thus unsuccessful and unhappy. There are ONLY TWO choices. Which side you choose is your decision. Telling yourself that it's not easy is a cop out. It's an excuse to stay damaged. That I know, because I've lived it. You either sink or swim, there is nothing in between. Anyone who wants to keep telling themselves and others that you need to "go gently" is deluding themselves. AND, to further support this, I'll add the fact that I used to be a counsellor in the 90s and listened to hundreds of problems. Perhaps that's hardened me up to a point, but I used to hear the same sh** over and over AND OVER. Most of these people didn't want help, they wanted someone else to wave a magic wand and somehow miraculously heal them. Well guess what? Those who kept going down the path of ..."oh god, I need to go slowly, please be more empathic" NEVER changed! They stayed swimming in their own emotional #######4 because THAT was the choice they made. They didn't want to change, they wanted to swim in self pity, forever throwing verbal rocks at those who tried to help them. Sorry, but my life experience has hardened me up, not because I've run out of breath, but because I KNOW that change only happens when you face fear, and DO IT ANYWAY. There is no other way.


AND, as the my 22yr clayton's love affair? I'm at the point where I know I'm up against a brick wall. This guy clearly has the same opinion as the one's I'm reading here. I don't doubt for a minute that he too, is one who would think, " oh god...it needs to done slowly, I need to feel when the time is right: I need you to do X, Y & S so I can go to the next step." I've been so patient with this mindset, but I know that it's no better than those with whom I spoke in the 90s that NEVER actually wanted to change. They used the "please take it slow" excuse to remain damaged. It's a choice, and not one that I agree with. So, in a nutshell, I'm moving on from him, because I know that NO AMOUNT of empathy or being nice with him will work. He spits in the face of empathy, always! It's a win/loose battle for me.

I'll come back a bit later to add to the next post.

A great debate and topic I think. BTW, this is only my opinion based on my experiences. I'm NOT judging anyone, I'm reflecting. Perceived judgement is a fear. Given I don't know anyone here, how could I possibly be judging? AND even if I DID know you guys, I still wouldn't be judging.

You are correct about the choices part. However, those who make the choice to withdraw, don't you even stop to think why they made that choice? Here's an answer: BECAUSE THEY'VE BEEN SHOVED OUT AND STEREOTYPED THEIR WHOLE LIVES. This is a fact.

You don't need to be a counsellor or a professional to know the facts. Reach out to this person and MAYBE they'll choose the other option. Oh for some they may not want help but that too can be chalked up to how they were treated before.

How we treat one another in society plays a huge role in how people live their lives. Some are strong enough to deal with tough situations while others are not able to. And for those who are not able, it's not their fault. Don't use those things against them.

sweetcheeks wrote:Oh, O.K; now I understand what you were saying. Hmmm, is X a nice guy? Who knows.
To be honest, I still don't think he is the asshole that he wants me to believe. I think he is the opposite, and what I see when he freaks out, and pushes me away, is really a psychological dissonance. In other words, he grapples between wanting to be honest, but not knowing how. It's kind of like a ladybird stuck between a cobweb and a fly's front door. She doesn't know how to open the door to get out, so she battles within the cobweb, because she is stuck.

Yes there were a couple of misunderstandings between the both of us that hope is ironing out.

From what I understand right now is that you're choosing to help him...

sweetcheeks wrote:I know X would like to move forward, but I think deep down he feels stupid for all the calls and all his cryptic strategies to keep me 'alive' so to speak. This is NOT what he wanted, and of course neither do I. He doesn't know what to say to me, because there is quite a bit of toxic history WITHOUT ever having spoken about any of it. What he fails to see is that I don't give a rat's arse about the history or his cryptic attempts: I just want to get on with it. He pisses me off something shocking, but I still adore him. I always have and I probably always will. He WON'T give himself permission to "let go" of whatever the fear is. The ironic twist is that he probably fears rejection and judgement (the two things that we all fear underneath), but he CREATES it and never stops creating it. He pushes me away, because he probably thinks he needs to it before I do. AND, as for the judgement? I AM judging him right now, because he is showing me THE WORST possible #######4 side that any man could have. He is insensitive, manipulative, deceitful, cruel...you name it, he is IT! The pathetic thing is, if he REALLY was like that, he'd hide it, NOT deliberately keep showing me. Even though I don't think he is really the asshole he keeps showing me he is, he won't show me anything else. He WON'T let go of whatever his issue is.

We don't know what he wants. You can't expect orforce people to change. If your advice and help to him falls flat, then there's not really much else you can do. You know as well us that it's his choice and if he chooses to come around one day to you then he will. If not then just let him be. You sound like you're upset because the situation's out of your control. Pressuring people to change actually make most guys want to change even less, and get turned off by you even more.

sweetcheeks wrote:I don't deserve the pain that he causes me. I've had enough. The day he stops blaming, and makes a solid decision about what's important to him, will be the day he takes his first steps out of his emotional wheelchair.

Lol, you're playing as much as the blame game that you're accusing him of. No one is FORCING you to to be in pain over him. If you've had enough then move on from him. It's your decision not to. It's been HOW many years?

sweetcheeks wrote: You know, we all have cob webs, the question is not whether we as women or men choose those who are real. I think we are ALL real, it's whether or not we love someone in the true sense to want to work through the issues.

If you choose to love someone and want to work with their problems, great. No one is arguing with that. But why are you judging them and blaming them for faults that you knew you were going to deal with - that you chose to deal with - and then play victim over it?

sweetcheeks wrote: There is NO SUCH thing as "issue free" people, I don't think. We are all different with different experiences.

No one said anything about perfection. Asking for someone who's closer to your type isn't demanding perfection. Asking for a stable, non toxic relationship is healthy. It's called learning from experience and moving on from hurtful people to find people more suited to you. Sticking in toxic, abusive relationships is fine and dandy if that's your forte. You want to work it out cool, but stop blaming external incidents for causing you pain when you had the choice to move on from it for more than 2 decades.

sweetcheeks wrote: The question is how we are prepared to deal with those issues. People need to get rid of their 'ideal' types. At the end of the day, it's all about chemistry. That is the most precious gift that life offers. Like any raw resource, we need to find it, dig it out and farm it before it's ready for use. The problem is...too many people expect to land themselves the perfect product: plucked, ploughed and packaged on the shelf, ready to purchase and enjoy.

You're obsessed with this guy. You're making him your ideal here. There are over 6 billion people in this world, and you chose to stick it out with this guy all this time expecting him to change for you and you're upset that he hasn't. You're rationalizing your reason for investing such a long time in this guy, that frankly hasn't done you any satisfactional progress. But deep down you know it's not going to fold out like you wanted any time soon, but you don't want to admit it. It's OK to move on from a person. It's actually healthy. But again, if you choose to work on this guy, stop judging him on reasons that you KNEW are keeping you two apart and expect him to change it on his own for you. You'll have to find out on your own somehow and help him out of it. Most of all, be patient with him about it. Don't get upset and be pushy with him about, or you'll drive him away more. That, or you just need to accept that it's not meant to be.

Everyone is responsible to become the best they can be for themselves. You're not responsible for someone else's growth, since you can't make those choices for them. I don't go for little girls and form them into the type of woman I like. And I don't expect a woman to date me if I act like a little boy, so she help me become a man. I'd actually hate that, as most men do, and run from her if she tried to change me into her image of a man. And you're not the mother that raised them either, so the whole analogy raw resource, digging out and farming thing is kind of weird.

It's OK to have higher standards for yourself. You're not asking for perfection. There are lots of people out there who actually will give you a better type than you realize - right now your beliefs are too rigid and filled with egotism to admit that you may have been wrong all these years. It's ok to let go.

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