Serious doubts ...I was 21, no baggage, didn't know better?

I was 21. No baggage, virgin, clean slate. Funny, ambitious goals, high self esteem and self confidence, high expectations of myself and everyone around me, believed the world was mine. Fundamentalist Christian deconvert. Completely clueless.

I was a young woman shopping for her man. I had been going on 1st, 2nd and 3rd dates with guys I met mostly online. Well after a few months of these random 1st 2nd and 3rd dates, I narrowed down my list to 2 men. One was my current bf, whom we'll call W, the other fellow we'll call G. W was actually shopping too, and he found me first.

Well, after one date with W I decided on G. And so G and I had a 7 month relationship that I ended because I couldn't communicate with him w/o hurting him. And he wasn't giving me any. Being with G made me feel like I had not an ounce of sexuality left in me.

Well, the whole G affair broke my heart, I went numb for a bit, couldn't feel anything. Then when I got over it I contacted W again and he said he'd been waiting for me and he knew that the whole G affair would end and that I would come back to him.

And so, it was me and W. Been that way for 1.5 years. Moved in with him a few months after we started dating. We fell in love with each other immediately; it was intense, passionate, and exciting.

But things started going wrong 6 months into it. Currently we are going to counseling and we are struggling with each other. We still have sex. Lots of sex. And its still really hot. So I guess it isn't THAT bad yet, because then I suppose the sex would begin to dwindle off.

Well, to get to the point, the reason I didn't go with W in the first place was because my first impression of him was pretty bad. He had this really old car with a really loud engine. And he looked poor as hell. He wore some clothes with holes in them. He gave me the impression of being an unambitious, dumb, poor idiot. And that was not cool.

Well, after I did get with W, I gradually came to realize that I was wrong about him. Although he didn't have a lot of money and was in fact poor, he was able to change jobs and get one with a slightly higher salary. And although he did like old crappy junk cars, they were comfortable to be in. And although he didn't graduate from highschool, he's still quite smart.

However, I feel like I have become a worse person while being with him. I feel trapped inside this cage that I have put myself in. I feel like I am surrounded by old dumpy cars and everything that is unclassy and ghetto. This is not what I had planned. I'm a college graduate who is struggling to realize her dreams, against all the forces now pushing against me. W has no ambitions beyond his short-term goals to work on his old dumpy cars. He believes that marriage is bad for men and would prefer not to get married.

I used to be much more ambitious about getting a higher education, career options and so forth, and I blame W for warping my thinking against college and career. Due to his preaching against education and career, I have come to see the education system as a scam, preying on students, convincing them that a higher education truly means something, when it really means barely anything. I have come to see career as something that sucks the life out of you and leaves you a dry, whithered prune. Thanks to W.

Instead of "I want to have children with you," he says, "You are the only woman I could ever imagine having children with."

Instead of, "Lets build a life together," its, "Lets see if this works out."

Instead of, "You are the woman of my dreams," its "You are the best one out there for me, though you aren't the woman I thought I was dating over a year ago."

Instead of, "Will you marry me," its "I can't trust you to stay, so lets wait."

Its been 1.5 years, and I'm not happy.

Before I met and started having sex with W, I was in shape and more toned. I was overweight but less than I am now; he convinced me to start a birth control that made me gain weight. Should I tell him to just use condoms and should I get off this birth control?

Where would I rather be right now? On a clear path towards my goals. With someone who shared the same dreams and goals that I do. Someone that wants to build a life together. Or, if not that, then I'd rather be in college and screwing 5 different guys right now. Maybe partying a little...

Here's a transcript of our AIM conversation last night. Sorry its so long.

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Me: will you leave me if you feel you can trust me 100% but you still feel like you have to walk on eggshells

BF: no

Me: ok

BF: I will walk on eggshells for as long as I can

Me: Will you leave me if you don't have to walk on eggshells but you can't trust me

BF: yes

Me: ok

Me: "for as long as I can" = leave me at some point

BF: assumption, which is also in conflict with the other thing I said, which means you must have ignored it

Me: it leaves open the option that "as long as I can" not = forever

BF: yes, I won't be able to walk on eggshells forever

Me: so your answer of no is in fact incorrect

BF: no, your assumptions are incorrect

Me: lol

Me: that answer means that you will be able to walk on eggshells until we die essentially

BF: no, it doesn't

Me: ok, I can't get a definitive answer from you

Me: So I will have to assume yes you will leave me

BF: you can if you stop assuming and start asking

Me: all I did was ask, then I clarified what the answer meant

Me: and got the opposite

BF: the clarification was an assumption

Me: I can ask you a straight question and get a non-answer

BF: you asked a straight question and got a straight answer

Me: which meant something else

BF: what?

Me: if u say no, then no is no.

Me: But then you say that there is a chance u will leave. which is a yes

BF: you asked 2 different questions, which had 2 different answers

Me: will you leave me at any point in our relationship, whether it be 3 years or 70 years, if you feel you can trust me 100% but you still feel like you have to walk on eggshells

BF: no; you assumed that when I fail to be able to walk on eggshells, that means I will leave

[18:56] Me: yes

[18:56] BF: which is a dumbass assumption

[18:56] Me: ok

[18:56] Me: well that’s your opinion

[18:56] BF: a blatant result of your paranoia and inability to trust me

[18:57] Me: I see it as a blatantly obvious fact

[18:57] BF: you see things that aren't there.

[18:59] Me: I make fundamental assumptions that make sense to me, not out of my paranoia; this is why I believe that if I sit still in a chair I will still lose. I can be 100% natural, 100% me, and make these assumptions which to me make perfect sense, and you will interpret them as paranoia and inability to trust you, which has the consequence of you postponing commitment to me. So just by me being myself, I am suffering the consequences because you continue to interpret it as lack of trust and paranoia. You refuse to accept me for who I am. How the tables have turned.

[18:59] Me: I like to know where I stand and where u stand so I can make fundamental decisions which affect my life. If that seems paranoid to you, that’s your problem.

[19:00] BF: normally you understand and agree that you are paranoid and have difficulty trusting. now you have magically changed your mind because it doesn't help your argument.

[19:00] BF: wanting to know where you stand is not paranoid; assuming that when the time comes that I can no longer walk on eggshells, I will leave you, is paranoid.

[19:00] Me: This particular time, I was not being paranoid or lacking trust in you. I was simple wanting to see where we stood.

[19:01] BF: you were making accusations and looking for reasons to be paranoid and unhappy.

[19:01] Me: I was asking you if, in the long-run, whether you would choose not to put up with the eggshell walking; which means leave

[19:02] BF: that wasn't the question you asked.

[19:02] Me: eventually you might get tired of it and then leave

[19:02] BF: "feel like I have to" NOT = "choose not to put up with it"

[19:03] Me: and this is why we cannot communicate--its implied

[19:03] BF: proof of un-trust: I tell you it does not mean leave, and you don't believe me.

[19:04] Me: I'm trying to find out where we went wrong in the communication; not saying I don't believe you

[19:04] Me: proof of why communication failure = you interpret as un-trust = you leave me

[19:04] BF: you keep saying it means I leave, I keep saying it doesn't.

[19:04] Me: No; now you aren't listening to me. I said it was implied and you ignored that statement.

[19:08] Me: Eventually our lack of effective communication might be the death of us because you interpret what I say as saying something else that contains a message of distrust

[19:08] Me: you see distrust where there is no such thing

[19:08] BF: you see me saying I will leave when there is no such thing.

[19:08] Me: yeah; that’s true too

[19:08] BF: so don't try to blame it all on me.

[19:10] Me: are you hungry

[19:10] BF: no.

[19:11] Me: did you already eat?

[19:11] BF: no.

[19:11] BF: I stopped being hungry when we started fighting.

[19:11] Me: ok

[19:11] BF: are you saying the discussion is over?

[19:11] Me: no

[19:11] BF: ok.

[19:11] Me: If you need to say more, feel free. I am pretty much done saying stuff tho

[19:11] BF: when I am no longer able to keep up the eggshell dance, I will simply start being more like myself. This will lead to more fights, but that will be preferable to constantly maintaining an act at that time. Some of the fights will be bad, but once I can trust that you will not leave me as a result of a fight, it won't matter any more. I will never leave you as a result of a fight.

[19:14] Me: ok

[19:22] Me: Do you believe I have anything of value or anything that is interesting to add to a conversation? Or will it be likely that whatever topic I happen to discuss will be something I have little knowledge of and no background experience to back up what I say?

[19:23] BF: I suppose that depends on what you choose to discuss.

[19:24] Me: Do you think that I am, overall, less mature than you?

[19:24] BF: that's a very complex question.

[19:25] BF: if this were Moment of Truth, and I were forced to give a yes or no answer, I would have to say.. yes. But I do recognize that there are certain areas in which you are more mature than me.

[19:25] Me: Do I meet your expectations for maturity level in a woman?

[19:25] BF: I think if I could choose, I would prefer more maturity.

[19:26] Me: but that was not the question; so that’s a no

[19:26] Me: Do I meet your expectations for level of general life experience in a woman?

[19:27] BF: not really. I have to explain a lot of things to you that I don't feel like I should have to.

[19:27] Me: Ok.

[19:27] BF: but, obviously, those qualities aren't super important, and I do recognize that there are plenty of areas where I don't meet your expectations.

[19:28] Me: true

[19:28] Me: The main reason why you are with me instead of someone else is because?

[19:28] BF: Because I love you.

[19:29] Me: The reason you chose to be with me 1.5 years ago instead of pursuing someone else and/or dropping your at that time current prospects is because?

[19:33] BF: we got along the best out of any woman I had ever been with or dated. I could say anything I wanted, be as honest as I wanted, and even if you got offended, you would not freak out or hold it against me for a long time.

[19:33] BF: we could go places and do things and it was fun.

[19:34] BF: you believed in fairness, and was willing to do your share in life.

[19:34] BF: and you have big boobies.

[19:34] Me: lol

[19:34] Me: “we got along the best out of any woman I had ever been with or dated.” -- is this still true?

[19:34] BF: no.

[19:35] Me: comparing to other long-term relationships, we fight more often?

[19:35] BF: only (name of ex-gf) and I fought more often than I fight with you currently.

[19:35] BF: though there is another difference... (ex-gf) and I fought that often almost from the beginning.
[19:35] Me: and currently only (ex-gf) and you lasted longer than you and I

[19:35] BF: correct.

[19:37] Me: “I could say anything I wanted, be as honest as I wanted, and even if you got offended, you would not freak out or hold it against me for a long time.” --is this still true?

[19:37] BF: not at all; it is now extremely different

[19:37] Me: “we could go places and do things and it was fun.” --is that still true?

[19:38] BF: not particularly. we pretty much fight every time.

[19:38] Me: ok

[19:38] Me: last one

[19:38] Me: “you believed in fairness, and was willing to do your share in life.”--is this still true?

[19:39] BF: that's a tougher one. You believe in doing your part, but you don't believe in people helping each other. that confuses me. Though I do see that that attitude is slowly changing.

[19:40] Me: So, it turned out that the woman you dated in the beginning was not the woman you thought I was, and you might be disappointed by that

[19:41] BF: yes, it is somewhat sad. I believe you are hurting yourself in the long run by having the attitudes that you do

[19:41] Me: attitudes that you did not see in the beginning?

[19:42] BF: I did not see the attitudes in the beginning.

[19:42] BF: I believe the way I saw you in the beginning was your "safe" front. you were being extra nice because you didn't know me well, and conflicts are easy to set aside in the beginning.

[19:43] Me: And so, as we got more and more deeply involved, more of the attitudes emerged

[19:43] BF: yes.

[19:43] Me: Had you known about the attitudes, would you have thought twice about pursuing me?

[19:43] BF: probably.

[19:43] Me: Would you have not dated me?

[19:44] BF: I can't be entirely certain. I think I would have

[19:44] Me: because of my big boobs? Lol jk

[19:44] BF: I still think you're better for me than anyone else out there

[19:44] BF: they sure didn't hurt

[19:45] Me: Do you truly believe that the attitudes will change to better suit you?

[19:45] BF: I kinda doubt it.

[19:45] Me: Do you think the attitudes are currently changing?

[19:45] BF: some are.

[19:46] Me: it kinda sucks for you then, that you believe that in spite of all the fighting
we do and all the ways we conflict, that I'm still the best one out there for you

[19:46] BF: *shrug* I have accepted reality for what it is.

[19:48] Me: Overall, are you happy in the relationship?

[19:49] BF: most of the time.

[19:49] Me: Does the relationship average out to a negative or a positive

[19:49] BF: positive.

[19:50] Me: It sounds like I am not the best woman out there for you. But if another one comes along that looks like I did initially, its probably a front too

[19:51] Me: And if not, then obviously she would be the best one for you You, however, do not believe that she exists

[19:51] BF: correct.

[19:51] Me: And if she did, you would very likely consider leaving me for her

[19:51] BF: if I met her, I would assume she was putting on the front.

[19:52] Me: I, of course, believe that she does exist, and that there is a small chance she might show up one day where you work, and become your friend. Such a situation would greatly threaten us, but would ultimately be better for you.

[19:53] BF: likewise, I believe there are better choices out there for you.

[19:53] Me: Therefore, we are together due to a matter of convenience. We are both in love, no one else "better" has come along, and its just easier this way

[19:54] BF: only if your belief that there is someone better for me out there is correct

[19:55] Me: the best woman out there for (which is me) you does not meet all your qualifications/expectations....

[19:56] Me: which either means that there are too few quality women, or your expectations are too high

[19:56] BF: the way I think of it is "I expect things that don't exist". Also, my expectations don't work like yours do

[19:57] Me: as in, they are not requirements for the relationship?

[19:57] BF: correct.

[19:57] BF: they are more like preferences, with a wide range of how well that reference is met

[19:57] BF: there is no "minimum" that must be attained

[19:58] Me: ok

[19:58] Me: Well, I would like to think that I was the woman of your dreams, the woman that met all your expectations, the love of your life, etc, but its definitely sounding more mediocre than that

[19:59] BF: to be that woman, you would have to deny who you are. and that would be the biggest tragedy of all (not to mention unsustainable)

[19:59] BF: the same is true of me: for me to be the man of your dreams, I would have to deny who I am.

[20:00] BF: which I am sort of doing a little bit, with the understanding on both our parts that that is not going to last forever.

[20:00] Me: My requirement has changed. You don't have to be the man of my dreams for me to be excited about you, passionate about you, and totally committed to you (pending your commitment to me)

[20:00] BF: that has been the way I looked at it from the start.

[20:01] Me: so you are temporarily trying to be the man of my dreams

[20:01] BF: no. I'm just trying to be careful about hurting your feelings.

[20:01] Me: ok

[20:02] BF: it would feel deceptive to do any more than that.

Hi, aeroz20! Welcome to the forum. If you have so many doubts, maybe you need to take a little time off and try to figure out what to do. It seems to me like he can't really give you an answer about wether or not he wants a future with you. I guess he might be scared of commitment.
It's your decision to make, no one can do that for you. If you'd rather be doing something else, then maybe you should see if staying in this relationship is worth it.

He says he wants a future with me, and that he "sincerely hopes" that we can have one. Obviously this means he refuses to make a decision about it.

He says he's already committed to me. But he says that he can't promise me forever until he's sure I'll stay. Therefore, he is not really committed.

But when I say that to him he argues against it. I'm tired of disagreeing with him and arguing over basic concepts like "what is commitment?" We barely ever agree on the meaning of basic concepts. And he thinks he's 100% correct. And I think I'm 100% correct.

And in the few times that I am persuaded to his thinking, I feel degraded and like lesser of a person.

Just my two cents: I think that people should be accepting of each other, not trying to make each other 'conform' to what they want, for the relationship to work out the best it can. For example, a friend of mine from school is in a relationship where her bf is converting her from the "Goth" to the "Girly girl", even though (until now) she has always refused to conform. They argue a lot, over small things, and she is generally unhappy. Yet she still wants to merry him (they got engaged last month), despite EVERYONE ELSE telling her it's the worst mistake of her life.

So, I guess what I'm trying to get at is this. You should try to find someone who likes you for who you are, not what your 'front' is. I wouldn't wast time with 'W' if (as it seems to me) he wants you to change who you are.

I think people need to feel secure when they are in a relationship, aeroz20. I would feel degraded if he treated me this way too.

I have less life experience and "maturity" because I grew up in a sheltered home where life was nearly perfect. I left religion at 19 and only recently have been subjected to the stresses of the "real world." He says that my dreams and goals are fantasies and that I don't do anything to try to make them happen, that I just sit around on my ass and complain about "reality."

But before I met him I did make efforts toward my dreams. I got an A.S. degree in College. I worked out more to try to get toned and lose weight. I actively tried to better myself as a person by reading philosophy, psychology, and educating myself. At some point I stopped doing all those things because I stopped believing in them. And I do blame W for it, though I do share in the responsibility for stopping all those things.

I would like to become the woman he initially saw--the woman that he thought I was--again. But I have to do it on my own terms. But I feel like if I do things on my terms, then I'm a total bitch who is disregarding his needs/desires/etc.

But then again, I've always thought of myself as a bitch. Its better to be a bitch than a pushover. The self-empowered bitch doesn't nag him to do it, she does it herself. How many women are like that? I used to be more like that, but I've lost my sense of self and purpose while falling in love with him. I have been confused for 1.5 years.

Time to get back on track again?

Do I stay with this guy? If I found someone else, wouldn't the same problems eventually emerge again? There's no guarantee that I would find someone "better." And I'm deeply in love with this man, I don't know that I would ever be able to get over him.

aeroz20, welcome to the forum. In a way, I was like you, didn't date until I was 23, upstanding young gentleman that succeeded well in school, talented, and had character. Then I got hurt and really came into knowing myself and not some mask.
At your birth, no one else helped you enter this world, you were chosen to exist by a force far greater than measurability and feasability. At your death, no one is going to die for you, just you. In essence, when it comes down to you, the only person that is responsible for you is you. Being connected to someone doesn't change the fact that you are still you and can decide for you regardless of feeling. Perhaps ou could look beyond what you have been taught, and the way you have been raised, and locate the depth of you and your pertinence? Perspective is good to have in this life.

I'm not sure what you don't get:

Instead of "I want to have children with you," he says, "You are the only woman I could ever imagine having children with."

Instead of, "Lets build a life together," its, "Lets see if this works out."

Instead of, "You are the woman of my dreams," its "You are the best one out there for me, though you aren't the woman I thought I was dating over a year ago."

Instead of, "Will you marry me," its "I can't trust you to stay, so lets wait."


This is a guy who lives in the moment, ONLY in the moment - and everything in his life in every way reflects it.

I want to quit school - this is too hard, boring, unimportant - so he quit, and that decision ended many roads and options he could have traveled and had.

He's not educated, which doesn't mean he's not smart - but he's not self-disciplined, ambitous, driven, with focus or vision for his life.

he's living right here, right now - moment to moment.

It might last a lifetime, if you live in the moment you're in. You're over here living "for a future" - honey, you're both together becuase you're just the same - in mirror opposite manifestation.

He lives only in the moment - you never do.

Neither of you know how ot live life on life's terms, while enjoying the present, but making it count for your future happiness, security and success.

So the reason why we are conflicting is that we are mirror opposite of each other...well that does make sense. Seems pretty obvious. Isn't there a way though to learn to appreciate our differences? I grew up being told that if someone is different they are wrong--so it will be harder for me to learn that lesson.

Is it a bad thing to not think about and plan for the future? Shouldn't two people be on the same page about what you said: "... making it count for your future happiness, security and success."

Hey, aeroz20! You don't have to make this work if it's not what you want. You have to think about what would make you happy.
Maybe if you tried to explain things to him a bit and tell him that you need to reach some kind of compromise, he'd understand.