Girlfriend wants an open relationship

xdude wrote:A sort of 90 degree take -

Again I go back to the dove vs hawk game theory

This is a good way of putting it, I like the game theory analogy. It doesn't necessarily have to be a 'non' vs. a 'disordered person' division, I agree with Quoth on that. But the willingness to cooperate, which is a positive trait from my pov, is being targeted here. However, had it not been accompanied by OP's weak boundaries and neglect of their own needs, the whole thing probably wouldn't have worked, despite their willingness to cooperate.

Quoth, you are missing a big point here.

Abuse is always the responsibility of those who levy it. It is in the hands of the abuser. Always. And abusers always deny their abuse. They love to blame others for it. And any person who is on the receiving end of it, is never responsible for it. This does not matter if this person is a non who possesses good traits, someone who has an innocent view of the world, someone who might be shy, or depressed or autistic. Abuse is never justified, ever.

It is not my role, or the role of any member of these non forums to make an argument that satisfies you. If you are not satisfied, do not post here. These are non support forums. Period. I do not have to convince you how wrong abuse is, that is self-explanatory.

Inferring that someone is naïve for how they were abused is beyond a reasonable point of view. And that view is not supported here.

shanzeek wrote:

xdude wrote:A sort of 90 degree take -

Again I go back to the dove vs hawk game theory

This is a good way of putting it, I like the game theory analogy. It doesn't necessarily have to be a 'non' vs. a 'disordered person' division, I agree with Quoth on that. But the willingness to cooperate, which is a positive trait from my pov, is being targeted here. However, had it not been accompanied by OP's weak boundaries and neglect of their own needs, the whole thing probably wouldn't have worked, despite their willingness to cooperate.

Yes, well the theory is complicated because doves need hawks too, but that's another story.

Yes also to I do think the OP would be doing himself a favor by focusing on how to set boundaries he is really comfortable with, but as is true of all of us, change takes time. We do play a role in our own outcomes, very true. That doesn't change that sometimes to get ourselves motivated to take action, we also need to see a rotten deal for what it is, rotten (and really get behind it emotionally, before we will do something).

To put that in personal perspective - having been in a lopsided abusive relationship, it was a rotten deal. I had already spent years trying to figure out what I could do to be more supportive of her, what I could do better, but I didn't really take action until I saw that nope, the problem wasn't all mine. It was just abuse. My part definitely was true, but I wasn't the only one in the relationship either, and she wasn't just some poor feel-sorry for me disordered person either.

mark1958 wrote:It is not my role, or the role of any member of these non forums to make an argument that satisfies you. If you are not satisfied, do not post here.

Agree.

SOF&F is here for those in relationships with people with personality disorders, mental illness, etc. to write from their point of view. It doesn't matter if they are 'right', what matters is if it helps them to communicate from their point of view, and receive some support from others who can relate, then the sub-forum has served its purpose. As always we encourage people to ponder their own part in relationships too, but emotional changes take time, and nothing wrong with that.

There are many other sub-forums available for others, but that is the focus of this forum. Just as we suggest if someone is triggered by what is written in the PD sub-forums to avoid them and post here if triggered, the same is true in reverse. Anyone with a PD that finds what is written here in SOF&F triggering should avoid SOF&F.

mark1958 wrote:Quoth, you are missing a big point here.

Abuse is always the responsibility of those who levy it. It is in the hands of the abuser. Always. And abusers always deny their abuse. They love to blame others for it. And any person who is on the receiving end of it, is never responsible for it. This does not matter if this person is a non who possesses good traits, someone who has an innocent view of the world, someone who might be shy, or depressed or autistic. Abuse is never justified, ever.

It is not my role, or the role of any member of these non forums to make an argument that satisfies you. If you are not satisfied, do not post here. These are non support forums. Period. I do not have to convince you how wrong abuse is, that is self-explanatory.

Mark, I don't think Quoth was trying to shift the blame from the abuser. (were you, Quoth?) I think he skipped that part because it goes without saying and focused on the personal responsibility of the individual within the mentioned context. Not blame, but responsibility for one's own actions and decisions since the other person's actions are something one doesn't have the control over. That is how I understood it at least. Defending the abuser seems unlikely by a trauma survivor.
In case of OP, his willingness to take this other person's needs in consideration is admirable but unability to communicate his own needs while doing so, or saying 'no' and walking out on this deal falls under his own responsibility, not the other person's.

shanzeek wrote:Mark, I don't think Quoth was trying to shift the blame from the abuser. (were you, Quoth?) I think he skipped that part because it goes without saying and focused on the personal responsibility of the individual within the mentioned context. Not blame, but responsibility for one's own actions and decisions since the other person's actions are something one doesn't have the control over. That is how I understood it at least. Defending the abuser seems unlikely by a trauma survivor.
In case of OP, his willingness to take this other person's needs in consideration is admirable but unability to communicate his own needs while doing so, or saying 'no' and walking out on this deal falls under his own responsibility, not the other person's.

Hi shanzeek,

True enough, but also to break the chain of repetition ...

shanzeek wrote:..Defending the abuser seems unlikely by a trauma survivor...

'Trauma survivor' has already kicked in our sense of we should be sympathetic. Nothing wrong with that, but why even bring it up, except to invoke a response in others? When you dig down into those weeds, a bunch more truth unfolds.

And to redirect this conversation a bit, the OP has shown a lot of sympathy for his GF who told him a story about how he is such a great guy, who provides safety, security, love, respect, but she is so traumatically emotionally empty in life (or whatever rationale she used, and he bought), that she needs sex with this other guy.

At some point the lesson is, you got to put your own wants/needs equal to others and not get dragged down into their own tales of why you should sympathize with them, but they shouldn't do so with you.

p.s., I am a trauma survivor too, but you can still choose to be emotionally supportive of others.

Going back to your earlier post shanzeek, some people do play on the sympathy (or empathy, whichever term you prefer) in those who have it. Those who are overly sympathetic do need to learn to set boundaries and see when this is happening, because it happens. On the flip side, people who use this positive trait against others, also need to be told STOP that. If you don't they learn nothing either, but to keep on seeking out people who are inclined to feel sorry for them, and those people will end up used/abused too.

xdude wrote:Going back to your earlier post shanzeek, some people do play on the sympathy (or empathy, whichever term you prefer) in those who have it. Those who are overly sympathetic do need to learn to set boundaries and see when this is happening, because it happens. On the flip side, people who use this positive trait against others, also need to be told STOP that. If you don't they learn nothing either, but to keep on seeking out people who are inclined to feel sorry for them, and those people will end up used/abused too.

Fully agree. It is happening and it happened to me as well and I'm working on setting clear boundaries. With strong boundaries though a 'hawk' can try until the end of time, but will fail each time. To let a vampire in one's house, one has to invite them first.

I understand Shanzeek. My point is this; disordered individuals abuse others and that includes Narcissists. Narcissistic abuse is very real. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees it is in fact abuse is not the argument presented in these forums. Or, was the point made originally by you.

No one ever said a non-disordered person is perfectly healthy, or perfect or wonderful or they did not contribute to the toxic relationship dynamic. No one even mentioned any of that at all. And the point was never about should one stay if they realize the other person is toxic. Of course not. But as you know, when someone is emotionally invested in another person, the shock of what is happening is not so easy to just turn off.

I experienced covert abuse. I know just how toxic and damaging it is. And the person who did all of the abusing denied, transferred blame, brushed it off, tried to recreate reality. A person who is in the midst of covert abuse can feel like they are losing themselves. Outside four walls, the person is sweet and charming to protect their image. Inside those walls lives a monster.

If you were watching a movie of this happening, you could probably say, why isn't he just leaving. My story is deeply personal and I will not share it with you here, but I knew her for many, many years and yes, whether Quoth believes it or not (I do not care), my good traits of making sure, being patient, being sympathetic, being kind, giving the benefit of the doubt, empathy where all used against me. In hindsight, sure, run. In the midst of it, not so easy.

So your point about strong boundaries is well taken. I have should have left sooner. But quite frankly, I could not believe what I was experiencing. And that is truth.

However, all of the mistakes I made in that relationship and I made more then a few, will never, never justify that abuse. Period. And I can never condone anything used as an excuse to justify it.

My apologies to the OP for derailing his thread and making this about myself. I will bow out now.

shanzeek wrote:

xdude wrote:Going back to your earlier post shanzeek, some people do play on the sympathy (or empathy, whichever term you prefer) in those who have it. Those who are overly sympathetic do need to learn to set boundaries and see when this is happening, because it happens. On the flip side, people who use this positive trait against others, also need to be told STOP that. If you don't they learn nothing either, but to keep on seeking out people who are inclined to feel sorry for them, and those people will end up used/abused too.

Fully agree. It is happening and it happened to me as well and I'm working on setting clear boundaries. With strong boundaries though a 'hawk' can try until the end of time, but will fail each time. To let a vampire in one's house, one has to invite them first.

Amen. I am still not going to give up on sympathy for others (or empathy), whichever word applies, but it doesn't matter.

What I am not going to do is let a purely self-interested person wear me down with 'omg poor me' abusing my kindness, so they can get what they want, while they refuse to consider other's points of view, except analytically (i.e., they are still working out a way to maximize personal benefit and don't give a damn who else is affected).