still don't trust her

You're not old fashioned, you're "new fashioned," imo. In the past, when marriage was held in higher regard, there was considerable pressure on men to propose not only to obtain sex, but to ensure that the woman would not be snapped up by another man. Women had any number of what they called "callers," or "beaus." Engagement was the only thing that ensured any degree of monogamy. But now all dating relationships seem to be considered potentially matrimonial relationships. In my opinion, it's unfair to people, ridiculous, and the cause of the high divorce rate, as people don't have any opportunity to meet "the one."

I'm very serious about this. The "grey area" I refer to isn't a matter of communication at all; it's the idea that once you start seeing someone, there's some assumption of exclusivity, for some reason. Why should there be? If you're dating, you're dating, and that's that. You're not married. It bothers me when I see wonderful men hang back, afraid to ask out a girl because she's "seeing someone." So what? Ask her out. She's not married; she's as free as the wind.

Incidentally, no one can "break up" a relationship. People make choices. Everyone is responsible for their own choices.

@ alethiea - maybe im missin the point but how then does a relationship go from 'dating' to 'marriage' without any form of 'exclusivity' ? Im certainly not saying that everybody wants marriage.....some people are happy to be in a committed (exclusive) relationship without the legalities. Maybe i am using the incorrect terminology ?????

I think that if you make the choice to invest time and effort into a relationship and thats MUTUAL, it becomes exclusive. Are you saying to me that you do not acknowledge any committted pairing outside of marriage ????????? And that these pairings are 'fair game' ????

I know there are some who are.......lets just say...extremely needy
and that these people tend to think of every potential 'suitor' as marriage material and will go all out to try and make it so. For the most part, i think there is an awful lot of miscommunication between the O.S. You may think your thing is exclusive and the other person has other ideas.......it pays to talk. That way every one is clear about where they stand.

I certainly wouldnt want to be seeing someone who is seeing other people.......that is just messy. And i wouldnt be happy if i wasnt told in the beginning.

I've completely lost my train of thought...............

I am with you on the point you make about not being able to break people up without the person wanting that to happen. I too believe in free will. But i also know that some unscrupulous people are out there and they will employ every trick to their own advantage and some people are not aware of the intricacies of this particular 'game'.

Either way.............. we dont all want to be married but some of us would like to be in committed relationships that are acknowledged. (ahem !!!! smug married people) <<<LOL>>>

I would not go after someone who was obviously in a relationship with someone else. Thats just me.

The period of exclusivity between dating and marriage is engagement.

People who want sexual and romantic exclusivity without the commitment of marriage had best locate someone who wants the same thing, and be upfront about that from day one. Otherwise they're just being selfish.

If you take the time and effort to invest yourself in a relationship, that's just NORMAL.

No, I do not recognize "committed pairings" outside of marriage. As I said, if you're interested in someone, and they're not married...they're not married. It's that simple. If they wanted to be exclusive, they'd be married.

I don't understand what your issue is. I'm enjoying trading perspectives, but as I said earlier, you seem to believe there is some sort of quasi-marriage situation that guarantees sexual exclusivity. There isn't. If two people aren't married, there's a reason. It might be their personal concern that marriage isn't for them, in which case they will simply not pursue relationships with other people, and preserve their fidelity quite easily in this manner. However, it's far more likely that the reason they aren't married is that they are not convinced the other person is the one they want to be with for the rest of their lives, in which case, they're fair game for the wide world.

Not me, though. I'm married.

I think the original (huh!) point made by Firn was that she was unhappy about her fiancés friend possibly trying to make a move on him. She explained how she had ‘got’ him and was worried that this woman may employ similar tactics. You had suggested that this other woman was an attention seeker, she’d had her time, try and protect that man from her. I agreed. However, you made the statement:

I don't see anything wrong with breaking up someone who's just dating.

This is where I began thinking……hold up a minute.

Okay. Now I see where you’re coming from. Marriage is the ideal and everything else is less valid?……..that is complete and utter tosh. There are many people out there who DO have committed relationships, without marriage, who have just as rewarding and rich relationships as any married couple. It is just as difficult to ‘emotionally’ deal with the breakdown of a long term relationship as I imagine it is a marriage. Not choosing marriage doesn’t make you selfish, its not gonna be right for everyone is it.

That’s why you will see people who have been together longer than some marriages last; those that have open relationships; those that are just together and swing (as some married couples do???); those who are against it for political, sociological, ethical, or anti-religious reasons. You can’t take the ‘ideal’ of marriage and expect to plug everyone into it. Some people are not gonna and maybe don’t wanna fit.

My only problem is seeing the contempt you have for non-married people who ARE in long term committed relationships (no engagement or marriage). If only things could be so black and white. I think you have put marriage on a pedestal when, as you know, it is not held in the same high regard as it was. That you can be so disdainful about other people’s pairings makes me believe that you really have lost touch with what is really happening in today’s societies.

Engagement and/or marriage as you also know does not guarantee exclusivity as many have broken down due to infidelity. So it really depends on the people involved.

I too enjoy a healthy discussion and I just KNOW that we are not gonna agree on this one. I do not liken my relationship to a ‘quasi-marriage’. We are together because we choose to be, and after 2 and a half years together…..hell yeah…..i expect there to be sexual exclusivity. However, if he should decide that our thing is no longer right for him then he will indeed leave and I will no doubt weep and I will have to deal with it. Not wanting marriage does not mean I have no right to pursue a relationship with anyone. As long as we’re both in agreement of what we want from the relationship then I am just as entitled (as you are) to have a committed relationship with the man I love without marriage.

Besides…..as you say….you got pretty serious really fast with your man (husband)……..maybe that was just to lock him into an ‘exclusive’ contract before someone else came along and tried to ??????????????????

Yes, that was part of the reason I got serious fast with my husband; as he did with me. We wanted the "uber commitment," if you will. Largely, we were both concerned with not wasting time.

Ultimately what serial monogamy does is short-change everyone by reducing their pool of marriageable partners from potentially hundreds to simply those people they are able to meet when they are between relationships. I don't believe that "fate" leads us inevitably to "the one." I believe that we need to make our own lives, and part of that, ideally, is exploring people with whom we may fall in love and create a family -- or not.

I never said that not choosing to be married makes one selfish. My feeling is that reserving someone for oneself and not allowing them to see other people when you are not convinced you want to be with them for the rest of your life is selfish.

I'm looking at it as a sociological thing: We have a window of time in which to find a partner with whom to reproduce. That window is certainly bigger now than it was, but it is finite. Within that period, if we enter into a live-in relationship that is sexually or romantically exclusive, that may be anywhere from 2 years to ten that we are removed from the dating world, and not available to other people with whom we might enjoy a happy and fulfilling life.

To make matters even worse, people have now come up with the concept of "emotional infidelity," which reduces autonomy in relationships even more, to the point where our thoughts are now open to the censorship of our partners. Partners who formally could just gripe or complain that their lover was attracted to someone else now feel the right to squat in their heads, all under the banner of "emotional infidelity." Rather than freedom and self-sacrifice, insecurity and selfishness seem to rule the day.

Part of the sacrifice of marriage is the acknowledgement that you are giving up the possibility of finding happiness with anyone else. That you will not even look in that direction. This is a huge sacrifice. Relationships, marital or otherwise, that offer no guarantee of long-term commitment, but are just "good enough for now" are simply not worth it, imo.

Firstly, I apologise for mis-interpreting what you wrote. You didn’t say that.

I understand what you are saying about serial monogamy but I certainly don’t feel cheated out of meeting prospective marriage partners by being in a long term exclusive relationship. And as I said before, if two people are in agreement then I don’t see where selfishness comes into it……surely that would only happen if someone was unsure about what they wanted….in which case you wouldn’t go there would you?

Free will means that most people are autonomous. I cannot ‘not allow’ my partner to see other people and that goes for him too. We are together because we choose to be. I guess that the politics within certain relationships means that in certain instances this may indeed happen.

Sociologically I understand the points you are arguing, but even sociologists now acknowledge the changes within society that do not necessarily support or uphold the notion of marriage as the ideal bond within which to reproduce. Look around. People make choices about how they pair up (if they chose to), that suits their needs, and have to live with the consequences should it fail. That is the risk you take.

There is nothing wrong with being cautious or even uncertain; sometimes it pays to err on the side of caution. That old adage ‘marry in haste…..’ must have a grain of truth to it. (huh!), heck even some married couples would agree that they have made a mistake.

As to the concept of emotional infidelity…….I agree to a point that it has gone too far. The idea of having my thoughts censored by another fills me with dread. However, I know that this does indeed happen as I have heard certain girl friends talk about it. Personally, I think this particular ‘war’ is waged by very insecure people who are hell bent on controlling all variables in order to achieve emotional congruence (phew!). But that does not guarantee any form of success as you cannot tell a person how to feel, who to look at, what to think etc…….that’s just ridiculous. There has to be trust between partners. No trust means there is no foundation upon which to build anything solid.

Finally, the sacrifice you talk about is an ideal I think most people would aspire to. By being with my partner I have indeed given up that possibility. That is my choice. That has also been his choice. There are no guarantees that ANY relationship or marriage will last the duration but do I need to go before clergy or a justice of the peace to state that I am in this for the long term………..No I don’t. Do I really care that I am missing out on exploring other people……No I don’t. I am happy the way things are.

I have really enjoyed this debate with you Alethiea.

Yes, maybe we can argue again sometime.

just to be getting back to the topic,
how do you feel on the advice of keeping this girl a bit closer?

because i'm still not sure...
after all your talks about cheating and stuff, i feel even more insecure... what will she try to get him? will she try? will he see? what can i do to keep that from happening?

should i try to get to know her a bit? or should i keep the distance i have now?

I would not go through the process of trying to pretend to be her friend; you don't like her, you don't want to know her, and that's how it is. I think it's best to be honest. If you pretend to be her friend, she's potentially even more in your life than she is now.

Ultimately, we can't make anyone do anything. If he wants to be with you, he has to recognize that and acting accordingly. There really are no guarantees. There is is no "surefire plan," imo, that will keep him from leaving you. My husband and I have been together for years, but he could leave me tomorrow; that's life. He is the one in control of who he chooses to love, not me. I can handle that, because I can live without him.

I think you have gotten sidetracked, because of your history of how your relationship started, into thinking that she is the problem to deal with, and she isn't. She's nothing. This is all about you & him. Do you trust him, and, if you don't, is that based on a rational, balanced assessment of the evidence you have, or is it coming from some guilt or insecurity in yourself?

Something to think about...as if you don't have enough already, I know.

I trust him.

But my mind is working overtime. We both cheated in past relationships, and we both know this.

I think my biggest issue with her, is that I can't stand the way she makes me feel. Thinking about her makes me feel insecure. I know he loves me, I know that with all my heart.
But then why does she make me feel so small?

I trust him. I know he won't cheat on me and I know that (the way things are now) he won't leave me.
But why does she give me the feeling that I'm worthless? That he's better off without me?

more questions to think about...