Much Healthier but now Attracting Worse Men

I am 40 years old and emotionally much more healthy now than I have ever been. Raised by my physically, emotionally, and psychologically abusive mother as a latch key child and very little socialization I was a social retard until about 4 years ago. I was sexually molested as a child and also raped at 14. Both of my children's fathers were thought to be disordered. My son's fathers mother was para/schizo and had killed a woman and my daugters' father was suspected to be at least bi-polar by our PCP but, he wouldn't follow up with the referral to be evaluated. I have not been in a physically abusive relationship in 7 years. Naive, extroverted, overtly sexual, sexually manipulative, idealistic, lacking self-confidence and self-esteem, having very few boundaries and desperate, are the best words to describe the old me. I can describe the new and improved me I have fought and worked so hard to become as caring about my appearance and dressing and behaving with modesty, very careful not to be overtly sexual or give sexual cues inappropriately, not manipulative in any profound ways beyond what I gauge is a normal part of human behavior (I avoid treating anyone in a way I would find unethical or immoral if it were done to me), do have good self-confidence self-esteem, can state and follow up my boundaries and respect others, and if I never have a relationship again that's ok with me. I don't mind being alone because I like me Especially if the alternative is to be in a relationship where I feel less than safe and happy. So, this all being said, the only two items I still have to work on are my naivety and idealism. Which, I have grown leaps and bounds in but, still seem to give me the worst trouble. So, with all of this growth it has been very distressing that I seem to be attracting worse types. These are my last few relationships:

#1 (my current): I suspect he is ASPD. We have been talking, texting, emailing since July. We started "dating" 5 weeks ago and have not slept together. I am not getting a lot of "feeling" feed back, he asks me a lot of questions that seem more curious and I think not a heartfelt desire to know me, and recently when I set a boundary that I didn't want to have sex until we developed other intimacies he agreed but then 10 days later he was pushing himself against me and whispering sexual things in my ear. He stopped when I asked him too but, I had a strong positive? twisted reaction to his behavior and he knew it. I am not sure if my recent experiences are being super-imposed on this relationship or if I am just more aware now than I used to be.

#2: (1 date in Aug) Suspect ASPD. Was able to logic out the gas lighting and manipulation, really took me for a ride as far as almost doubting my sanity. Was playing games through fake emails and emotions and some serious grooming behavior. My psychologist called him of the two types of abusers "the bulldog." I never slept with him. We had a bad date in August and I told him I didn't want to see him personally after that but, we worked together professionally so, he kept pursuing me covertly, ignoring social cues, and my verbal boundaries. When he went against several work policies clearly to get me in a bad position I immediately went to HR and told them everything from that to the romantic gifts, constant touching, and covert manipulation. Now I don't have a job while they investigate him which really sucks.

#3: (Sept - Oct) Confirmed by two health professionals that his behaviors fit those of ASPD. This guy and #2 really did a number on me as #2 was aware of this one and what he was doing to me. I can honestly say that I had a "feeling" something wasn't right but, bc I couldn't pinpoint any red flags I kept moving forward thinking that I was just having trust issues bc of my past. I did sleep with him and fairly early, after dating only 2 weeks. He kept it together really well until one night when he got very emotionally controlling and hateful and I left knowing I would never go back bc I recognized the behaviors that night immediately which were over the top and self centered and meant to lower my self esteem and make me feel guilty. Also, his verbiage was all messed up and when I called him on his lying to me he got really frustrated and tried to make up more lies. The next day I answered a call from a number I had been ignoring bc I didn't know it and it was his ex girlfriend trying to reach me to "save" me. We got together and shared text messages and emails and were able to construct a time line and with other info could see he had been seeing, talking to, and sleeping with MANY of us at the same time and telling us all the same things. Cool as a cucumber he had looked me in the eyes, told me he loved me, would never hurt me, and would never even talk to another girl bc he wouldn't want to hurt me. Meanwhile, when I would leave another of us would show up at his house. He was sleeping with 2-3 of us a day. Ya, I'm still recovering.

#4: (Feb - May) Addicted to Vicodin and went back to his ex-wife who was supplying him. To my credit, I had no idea and none of my friends suspected either. At the very end I started to discern something wasn't right which was the last week of our relationship. Something changed and when I asked him about it he was overcome with tears and "It's not you it's me" and then broke up with me. I found out the next day about the Vicodin bc I took my phone back and all the drug dealers were contacting him. That's also how I found out he got back with his ex - through the FB app. Anyway, needless to say the relationship was kind, thoughtful, understanding, feeling, pleasant, without stress or turmoil, and one of the best I'd had until the end.

Prior to #4 had some really healthy happy relationships that I could have been a better partner in if I had been healthier but I'm growing and learning and trying. So, again, my concern is, what the heck is the deal that I'm healthier but, I'm attracting worse men? I have suspected I am doing something I don't realize that tips them off, or that they are attracted to some chemical imbalance I have, which led me to think that maybe I have a disorder, and of course, I also have thought that maybe it's no different, I just see them for what they are quicker or more clearly now and because I am healthier is why for the first time they really scare the hell out of me.

So, ultimately, I am looking for a response to that last paragraph maybe on what are your thoughts or what direction could I go to maybe garner some better understanding of how I could be causing this and correct it and also, regarding my current "relationship" any tips on ferreting out if this guy is for real and let his physical nature get the best of him and I should just reassert my boundaries or RUN?

SRS

Hello again SRS -

Some thoughts on this question. I recently read a book on why psychopaths (they're not all serial killers) can be so successful in life. In fact the author argued that it's almost a requirement to reach the highest levels of success. Anyway, while psychopathy is not the same as ASPD, they are related enough in thinking patterns that perhaps the next thought applies.

So the author worked with and interviewed many psychopaths over the years, and one thing they have in common is that they can sense who is easy prey. Problem is that though they can laughingly tell you about who they duped in great detail, they don't seem to be very good at going into much detail as to why they know what they know, so I'll make some completely unsubstantiated guesses about what are some of the signals they are reacting too.

1.) Personally I'm very slow to warm up to people, in part because I also worked with prisoners for many years, and the joke is that ASPD among prisoners is as common as the common cold. On the other hand the HPD woman I got involved with just immediately warms up to anyone, especially any one who is the least bit charming. So one sign of weakness may be, too quick to trust that the person is who they present themselves to be.

2.) Some people present themselves as independent. How they think, how they walk, and talk, all say, "I'm good with taking care of myself". Others come across as dependent. More of a "I really can't do this alone, I need help" way of thinking, and thus behaving. Those who need help are an opportunity for an ASPD type to fill that want, a foot in the door. Sympathy does not require empathy; even an ASPD type can act in a sympathetic way.

3.) Some people trust their own judgement far too much. A huge ego can blind us to second guessing ourselves, to re-examining from time to time, and with that, someone more skilled in manipulation can play on that weakness. The psychopath just has to convince them that it's their idea and they'll run with it. I believe psychopaths can see the arrogance a mile away, and know they have a potential mark.

I'm sure there are other clues that tip them off too, who will be easy to manipulate, and who not.

As I wrote above, most psychopaths are not serial killers. Depending on their mix of personality traits, some can be very successful. On top of that, ASPD/psychopath types crave excitement, take risks, can go to extremes. Women may consciously or unconsciously see a potential protector in such a man, but under the belief that he won't hurt her personally. Many people find their personalities magnetic, because they have traits that most of us dream of having, but just don't (we're too risk adverse). People get involved with these relationships believing the fallacy that they really just need to be loved and understood, and that *poof* the negative aspects of their personality will fade away, and what will be left is that exciting, successful guy or girl. It's just not so. In part because they simply don't have the feelings others attribute to them. In part because you can't 'fix them' and retain only the positive traits - they are exciting, risk takers, successful because of their disorders, not in spite of. Fix the disorder and all of that goes *poof* too.

By the way I also find ASPD/psychopath types quite scary. While many of them seem able to recognize each other (no idea how, I guess a player knows a player), they can be very hard to read for most of us, and really wouldn't give a second thought to damaging others lives if they can benefit.

Some more terrific insight. Thank you X. I believe I have read some excerpts from that same book and one of them actually said they could sniff out prey like a pig sniffs out truffles and THAT is what I am afraid of.

I agree with 1,2, and 3 you listed below and have been able to look backwards and connect the dots with some of these. I am independent but, as a student and single mother am also in a position where if someone does help I am thankful. I am vary wary of someone who offers to help quickly and claims they are as a completely altruistic gesture. At the very least we walk away with a sense of goodness from helping someone else and this in itself can be self serving. The problem has been there have always been unspoken implied reciprocations expected later and I prefer to avoid the form these take. Additionally, I asked #3 when he offered me money for my sons dental surgery why he would do that when he claimed every woman had taken him for money and ruined him. His response was that he was trying to trust and grow and realized without this he could never have a good relationship. I think it was a rouse to get me to trust him and feel comfortable and also a way to make me feel obligated. Regardless, the fact that they use our kindness and sense of rightness against us is really, really scary.

As far as warming up to people... yes, I have had to tone that way down and not be so open and trusting bc duh it was getting me in big trouble. Typing this now I realize that I don't really know anything about #1 as I have never been to his house, his job, or met his friends or family. He hasn't experienced any of that with me either bc I am trying to be safe. So, I wouldn't consider sleeping with him until I did of course. So, why would he with me. Is it ok to look at that and say "clearly we don't have the same values; time to go!" or is that judgmental? This is how I get stuck. But, I don't want to get stuck anymore. I want to be healthy and safe and I would never consider sleeping with him until I "knew" him and I don't. I only have what he's told me... he doesn't even have an active FB account. In fact, he's moving the 29th and now I am starting to think, if he wants to have sex with me, but, he hasn't invited me to his house, well, then what's at his house? The girlfriend, the wife he's ending a relationship with? hmmmmm...

I don't know the answer to that but, I do know I feel uncomfortable. I think it's best based on not really knowing what is causing the attraction and the fact that I am trying to work through things with a professional, it may be best for me to just not date at all. I feel like it's dangerous to proceed.

As far as your 3rd point, I second guess myself all the freaking time and I hate it! I definitely need to work on being more assertive and more sure of my decisions and perceptions which is really what I need to do with this I'm realizing.

The only thing I can say is I have gotten a little bit smarter at identifying and listening to my own feelings and paying attention and not being quite so gullible. I have learned to use logic and not get emotionally vested right away. It's a start

I not only appreciate your insight and help but, also both of these as a man and what you said about a man appreciating a woman who waits and being willing to wait. Thank you for this. I hope things are going well for you as I read many posts over the last few days trying to sort out my HPD suspicions and saw a little of what you've been through. Loving someone and realizing they don't love us back is the worst kind of betrayal and did the most damage to me.

Ok, I have no idea how to tell him I don't want to proceed with the relationship or how much I should even say to him but, my logic says that is the best solution to all of this.

Some more terrific insight. Thank you X. I believe I have read some excerpts from that same book and one of them actually said they could sniff out prey like a pig sniffs out truffles and THAT is what I am afraid of.

I agree with 1,2, and 3 you listed below and have been able to look backwards and connect the dots with some of these. I am independent but, as a student and single mother am also in a position where if someone does help I am thankful. I am vary wary of someone who offers to help quickly and claims they are as a completely altruistic gesture. At the very least we walk away with a sense of goodness from helping someone else and this in itself can be self serving. The problem has been there have always been unspoken implied reciprocations expected later and I prefer to avoid the form these take. Additionally, I asked #3 when he offered me money for my sons dental surgery why he would do that when he claimed every woman had taken him for money and ruined him. His response was that he was trying to trust and grow and realized without this he could never have a good relationship. I think it was a rouse to get me to trust him and feel comfortable and also a way to make me feel obligated. Regardless, the fact that they use our kindness and sense of rightness against us is really, really scary.

As far as warming up to people... yes, I have had to tone that way down and not be so open and trusting bc duh it was getting me in big trouble. Typing this now I realize that I don't really know anything about #1 as I have never been to his house, his job, or met his friends or family. He hasn't experienced any of that with me either bc I am trying to be safe. So, I wouldn't consider sleeping with him until I did of course. So, why would he with me. Is it ok to look at that and say "clearly we don't have the same values; time to go!" or is that judgmental? This is how I get stuck. But, I don't want to get stuck anymore. I want to be healthy and safe and I would never consider sleeping with him until I "knew" him and I don't. I only have what he's told me... he doesn't even have an active FB account. In fact, he's moving the 29th and now I am starting to think, if he wants to have sex with me, but, he hasn't invited me to his house, well, then what's at his house? The girlfriend, the wife he's ending a relationship with? hmmmmm...

I don't know the answer to that but, I do know I feel uncomfortable. I think it's best based on not really knowing what is causing the attraction and the fact that I am trying to work through things with a professional, it may be best for me to just not date at all. I feel like it's dangerous to proceed.

As far as your 3rd point, I second guess myself all the freaking time and I hate it! I definitely need to work on being more assertive and more sure of my decisions and perceptions which is really what I need to do with this I'm realizing.

The only thing I can say is I have gotten a little bit smarter at identifying and listening to my own feelings and paying attention and not being quite so gullible. I have learned to use logic and not get emotionally vested right away. It's a start

I not only appreciate your insight and help but, also both of these as a man and what you said about a man appreciating a woman who waits and being willing to wait. Thank you for this. I hope things are going well for you as I read many posts over the last few days trying to sort out my HPD suspicions and saw a little of what you've been through. Loving someone and realizing they don't love us back is the worst kind of betrayal and did the most damage to me.

Ok, I have no idea how to tell him I don't want to proceed with the relationship or how much I should even say to him but, my logic says that is the best solution to all of this.

Oh, and xdude, one last thing re the male insight... if a girl asks her friends or a known acquaintance about you and your family does that come off weird and bad? I usually do ask my friends about possible dates but I've been really careful because I don't want to offend the date. So, would that be offensive that a girl checks you out before or is it understood that that's to be safe and a decent guy wouldn't have a problem with it?

I did it! I called him and told him that things the other night had become way to intense and sexual and this was after we had discussed clear boundaries and had agreed. I told him that although it was clear to both of us there would have been no trouble in that dept. I had been uncomfortable because of his aggressiveness and that I set that boundary in order to keep myself safe because of who I am and my previous experiences. Then I said nothing. And so did he and after a long pause he asked me to hold. Then he got back on the phone and he said, "Well, I guess I should say I'm sorry." another long pause, mostly bc I recognized that verbiage for what it is and was waiting for the apology I knew would never come. Then he said, "I guess things got out of hand." another long pause, which continued, and then he cleared his throat and I said, "Ya know, I'm not going to put you through explaining and apologizing or whatever this is. I called you to be direct and not leave you wondering because I believe that's the right thing to do. The other night left me highly uncomfortable and I have been bothered ever since so, I'm gonna take a break for a while and I wanted to let you know." He said, "ok" and I wished him a good night and got off the phone.

Ya know, even if he's a person who would absolutely never be abusive to me I have to say that if I'm going to be with someone then it will be a person who when I tell them I had a feeling of discomfort in response to something they did I would want them to apologize not guess maybe they should and then not do it. I would tell someone immediately that I was sorry and try to make sure they understood that I understood how and why my actions influenced an uncomfortable response and I would definitely tell them I would try my best never to do it again. Well dang, I guess I would have empathy!

After I hung up I instantly felt better and I even felt empowered. It was scary but, I had strength I didn't even know I had and I think the best thing I did was to make it short, sweet, and to the point. I maybe gave him too much info but, I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he's a decent human being and the respect of a reason we won't be talking anymore as that is what I would want. I treated him like I want to be treated. He didn't treat met the way I want to be treated though and that's the break down.

Anyway, part of me telling you earlier I was going to do that was to make sure I was accountable to do it and I did so just wanted to let you know how it turned out.

SRS -

As to the first question, suppose we lived in smaller towns. People would tend to know a lot more about each other before going on a date and it would be assumed and understood that is normal. I'd say it's understandable that people going on a date with someone we know nothing about is risky, probably more so for women who are at higher risk of physical violence. I think a good man would be fine with you wanting to know more about him before that date.

As to the uncomfortable follow up call... I don't know him. It's of course possible that he is a player who just played the "I'm a nice hurt guy" card and left you dangling while he is off working on another prospect. It's also possible he really was left feeling uncomfortable, ashamed (for over-stepping your boundaries), rejected, and doesn't know what to say/do to make it right. Of course real men have feelings too which they also have difficulty processing at times. Especially when it comes to sex, acceptance, being wanted, or not, where the feelings can run very strong and deep, one way to process is it is to shut-down and just hope the feelings go away. So it is possible he just totally clammed up and was hoping the memory would go away.

There is really know way for any of us to know what kind of man he is, and likewise, really know easy way for you to know at this point. Hopefully your gut instinct, either way, is the right thing to do for you and that's all you can do. You did bring up the possibility of just not dating at all for a while, and that's certainly a reasonable choice too. Take a breather, clear your head can't hurt and may help. Maybe sleep on all of the choices for a night, and see how you feel about it before doing anything?

Best wishes,

X

Thanks X

Hi X,

As a follow up, my aunt who has friends where Sam worked had done some digging before I had decided not to see him anymore, she called me last night. He's married. Happily married. As in, not getting divorced, not separated, no signs of problems, married. Bizarre. I'm glad I listened to my instincts. Thanks for your help.

SRS