Unspecified Dilemma

Wasn't sure I could post this, but I have a couple of things that have bothered me recently (well for the past 7 years):

1. I took this 4-day seminar on freedom, change and overcoming fear 7 years ago and loved (or atleast thought I loved it). I made a lot of life changes after it and my parents became enraged calling the seminar brainwashing, and the facilitator of the inspirational seminar "bad", evil, a brainwasher, etc.
My question is how do I know if I just developed some wierd kinf of "stockholm syndrome" and liked the seminar because I had to sit through it, or that it was very frightening psychologically and "liking it" was the best way to cope with it

or

All my parent's beliefs about it or completely wrong and it was a great experience that merely revealed a lot of pain that I had been in -- and abuse I had endured with my parents.

2. There are parts of my childhood where I was strong and vibrant and then other parts in youth where I looked despondent, the way an abused animal or child would look (but who didn't have any consolation or method of sharing the abuse stories). I feel like I was emotionally and mentally abused by my parents, but other times think they were great parents. I started having these realizations that I was emotionally abused after that seminar.

It seems like ONE of those situations was abusive, right? I mean either

1. the seminar was abusive (which some parts could have felt too intense nad frightening) and did brainwash me into finding faults in good parnets and then I just projected anger from the seminar onto my parents or
2. my parents actually were emotionally abusive and my childhood felt abusive and the seminar merely opened my eyes, giving me the freedom to start addressing what I felt about my childhood.

How do I know which one of those is the case? I experience episodes of good interactions with my parents, which makes me doubt my claims of feeling emotionally abused/manipulated by them. I also feel guilty about believing that my parents could have been tremendously emotionally abusive -- emotionally sadistic-like.

What are the chances that I am fabricating problems of abuse, fabricating that i felt my parents (or a single parent) was emotionally abusive) because of being brainwashed to do so from that class, or I actually feel that way in regards to parents and just have difficulty exonerating my inhibition from knowing what I feel?

Finally, my behavior recently feels agoraphobic only when I'm exercising. I usually exercise at night, when there are less people around.

Thanks

Hi, Kooz,
Where there's smoke there is fire. I've been reading your posts, and have come to the conclusion that your parents were seriously misguided in their approach to childrearing.
Now you are struggling to detach yourself from them and define your own personality.
Step number one is to cut all financial ties to them. Move far away from them. Avoid communicating with them. You need to foster an environment that belongs solely to you, so that you can define yourself as a separate entity.
Nobody likes to think their very own parents were purposely distructive towards them. But for whatever reasons, you seem to have been dealt a bad hand parent-wise. You are very young; most of your life has been spent under their influence. Put some geography and some time between them and yourself, and things will get better.

Hi Kooz;

it's Linda from Avpd. i have just posted on this board to Plickety and saw you here.

i would like to say that I agree with what Puma has said, although going it alone is tough. There is a Buddist story that i have recounted here before but i will say it again because i love it!

'There was a wise and respected monk who lived by the edge of the river. The Emporer had many special and priceless things and he desired the presence of the monk at the palace.

He sent his servants with promises of gifts and solicitations of regard, instructing the servants to bring the monk to him so his wisdom would be his alone.

The Buddist Monk replied 'I would rather sit here among the reeds and be a free man than live trapped in a gilded cage.'

puma wrote:Hi, Kooz,
Where there's smoke there is fire. I've been reading your posts, and have come to the conclusion that your parents were seriously misguided in their approach to childrearing.

Puma!
Thank you, God!!! Thank you for recognizing that. Hearing people (namely my actual parents:) say things like: we were exceptional...we are good parents, etc. only creates confusion and distraught because such a declaration is completely contradictory to what I actually feel. Kind of like having your hand searing off and the skin peeling off over a flame and then having parents and parent-related people say things like "that flame didn't burn you; they were good parents, etc."

So It's incredibly validating and encouraging to hear you think the same. Additionally, the fact that you said you mentioned you read my "posts" (plural) shows that your "diagnosis" of poor parenting is inferred from reading a lot of my sources. That's incredibly reaffirming; I needed to hear that and just that one sentence: "I've been reading your posts, and have come to the conclusion that your parents were seriously misguided in their approach to childrearing." Goes a LOOONGGGGG way in reinstilling confidence into my outlook on life. It's a confidence battle (unfortuantely, and it needs to become a healing endeavor) because my parents are so outwardly, ostentatiously, and overtly convinced, almost "boasting" that they were good parents, when, in reality, what I feel is the opposite of that -- that they were quite atrocious. Besides, what would I gain gain from "making up, fabricating" stories about having terrible parents? You could argue sympathy from others, but that too easily is pity. The answer is that there's nothing to gain from fabricating states of your parents, but there is something to gain from reporting, clarifying, and healing mal-behavior on their part to clear myself of it. An english teacher I once had (who had never even met my parents, but being incredibly intelligent, probably percieved something "was up") said he thought "your parents messed you up". I defended them when he said that, but I'm coming to realize that he was RIGHT!

I wish I didn't have to "take side", but my parents are playing such a vicious game of trying to not only mistreat me, try to prove that they're good parents, and then violently (emotionally) attacking me if I say what I feel, if it is anything other than "praise for their [atrocious] parenting. So I am trying not to look at this like a battle for my emotional integrity, but if it is anything like that, thank you for helping me out, and hopefully I can just end this soon, and transition into healing mode.

My question is what to do know? I can actually breathe, meaning some of the smoke has cleared that my parents left, but my behavior is still shall we say, "stilted". For example, I am living on my own (in my own apartment) but have not taken a lot of the stuff I had at my parents house with me (namely a desk, furniture, etc) things that would make my new, indedendent living space more "my own". I have a lot of "protective beliefs" meaning that I don't take furniture I need because of some irrational fear that it is "contaminated" with my old way of living with my parents. There is a grain of truth to do that, but, in other words, I want to create as much distance, as much complete disconnection from my parents as possible (and then to start personal emotional healing) but I don't want to starve and deprive myself in the process. Lately, I've been doing a lot of self-deprivation thinking it was creating distance between my parents and I. However, distance and disconnection from parents and self-nourishment should not and are not, mutually exclusive!

Now you are struggling to detach yourself from them and define your own personality.

Let me bring you up to speed, which I think you deserve because based on your positive intentional comments, seemingly thorough interest in my dilemma, and honest, seriously helpful advice. It sounds like -- and I sincerely trust that it is -- your advice is extremely comprehensive and customized (not some generic cliche like "go for it") First off, I kind of "ruptured in my identity" breaking ties with my parents at 16. Screaming, yelling, serious fights and criticisms of their parenting. I had been sealed up like a can of worms and it just released when I was 16. I did everything I could to "claim my own identity" from pursuing acting to switching to a plublic school, etc. BUt I was still living under their roof, under their rules, and to the most suffocating effect, "their deceptive, repulsive beliefs and persuasion". I ended up transferring back to my old school and realized that I kept up my "identity formation process" their reaction would be so visceral and cruel (to protect their own survival system) that they would literally kill me, or at least, just completely try to get court orders (or something equivalent) to have me removed from their life (which is, ironically, what I want to do now!:) So after "bursting out" with my identity at 16, I had to, what felt like, re-invert myself to fit their mold for my remaining highschool years. How did I do that (I am only understanding all of this at the present)? Indecision and reaction formation.

Indecision and Reaction Formation: How I survived a Very troubled Childhood
I then went to a college that they wanted me to attend (it was the same college my mom attended); instead of the college I wanted to attend. I remember huge bouts of "indecision" and them loving to help me out with my "decision-making process" but This was just an act to appease their interest in "helping me with a problem". I had to manufacture problems for myself for my parents to have a relationship with me, and if they didn't have a relationship, thir would only be tremendous arguing. I remember looking back at college years and seeing that EVERY single class I signed up for, I called them up and asked them for advice on if I should take the class or not. I didn't realize it then (this was operating subconsciously), but I was manufacturing this "indecision" to create a problem to have a "topic of interacting" with my parents. The indecision "hid" what I was truly feeling about them. They are disgusting people -- in the way they cling to their beliefs, try to manufacture problems for others, and always need to be the center of attention. One thing I've noticed is that in my father's 23 year-old self-run business, he only has 1 single person working with him was there at the early years. He's had about 100 different employees in those 23 years but he only has 1 currently working for him that has worked with him for more than 10 years, all other employees have been with the firm for less than 2 years. This -- I think says something about the quality and verisimillitude -- of my father's personality. It's shallow. People join his firm and only stick around untill they realize how problematic of a person he is; he's okay on the surface, but he craves attention, is definitely somewhat bipolar himself, and has a huge barrage of other emotional difficulties that make him difficult to work with. This is reaffirming to my own beliefs.

"Surviving" here means, not sharing my true feelings of incredibly resentment, near hatred, and abominable frusration towards them -- because I feared the consequences if I did that. The second way I "survive" (i.e. concealed and repressed my emotions was reaction formation. When I was cringing at them yanking me around to all these doctors I twisted what I was actually feeling into "Wow, thanks mom and dad for truly trying to help me out!!" etc. Do you realize how humiliating it is to to be carted off to dozens of psychologists, have your parents complain of a problem to the psychologist, and while parents are paying the shrink's bill, basically "defend" myself against my parents through a shrink who has to respond to what my parents mentioned? So anyways, those are two ways I buried my emotions around them. Because I did it -- survival via indecision and reaction formation -- for such a long time, I frequently doubt the existence of my troubled childhood, which brings me to my current dilemma.


Not feeling Doubt

I vacillate between being afraid to visit my old parents' house and pick up something I need to thinking that "maybe they weren't that bad". The thing is that I've had very little people (exceptions are yourself and small amount of others) who don't defend myself, who actually hear about the trauma I feel like I've been through and try actually help me, instead of abate me. So if your parents and most other people you've talked with say they were great, but everything tells you from your pesonal experience that you were seriously emotionally abused in childhood, then that can be disillusioning. The point is, I need to sort out and flush out this crazy mess with my parents. You're right, I need to and WANT to cut all relationship ties - financially, proximal, emotional (hopefully this one is cut), etc. -- but I feel like i really need to process what has happened for me to fully relinquish the anger, pain, and trauma I've experienced. This is very hard to do when it's been difficult to find someone who listens.

Extracting myself emotionally
So the goal is to emotionally extract myself. Naturally this will advanced and catalyzed by severing all financial ties with them. However, I feel like I need to get scope on who was doing what. Like did my father really have bipolar? Was their marriage atrocious? Was my mother the more manipulative one and my father just kind of went along with what she said? Was she controlling the scene and planting all this absurdity about me having medical problems and then carting me off to doctors was just my father obeying Susan? Lot's of these uncertainties which isn't good becaue I can't look back and say "Ahhh, so that's what happened". All I can do now is look back and say "Woah, s@#t, SOMETHING emotionally traumatic sure happened throughout my childhood, but I can't fully describe it's complexity. I think it has a lot to do with my mothers intrinsic timiidty (very shy growing up -- hiding under tables) coupled with her exertion for control over the family (ALWAYS calling the shots about big life decisions), coupled with neglected and suppressed poor emotional relationship with my father, who buried the emotional trauma he experiencd being raised by alcoholics, and they did a lot of emotionally dumping onto me. So, obviously, financial independence would be INCREDIBLY emotionally helpful, but being able to look back -- while moving forward -- and having the clarity to see exactly what happened (like, for example, my mother was naturally shy, wrote all these books on parenting to make herself seem like a good parent, that was jumbled up with my father's mercurial emotions, and they projected his emotions onto me. My childhood (being raised by my parents) still very confusing, but all I know is that it was BAD, emotionally destructive, and very disconcerting for me, to say the least.

Step number one is to cut all financial ties to them. Move far away from them. Avoid communicating with them. You need to foster an environment that belongs solely to you, so that you can define yourself as a separate entity.

Check, Check, and Check. I tried to move to LA last summer and was living out of their home near their and my car, on and off. They lured me back to chicago, where I currently am (in an apartment) last november. My thinking was that maybe I'll have therapy with them and sort some of this out. BOY WAS I WRONG ABOUT THINKING THERAPY WITH MY PARENTS WOULD PRODUCE POSTIVE CHANGES! I discovered, of course, they wanted nothing to do with chaning themselves, but only wanted to endorse more problems that I "had".
So THAT didn't go as planned. Right now I just feel the way you do (not that this is a "normal" experience in any way) if you grabbed hold of electrical wire, were being electrocuted, thought you were going to die, and then the power was cut off. So I feel satisfied that I'm somewhat "intact", but have NO idea what to do in terms of the future. How do I get financial independence. That's one of the hardest things for me. I'm linking tremendous pain to being financially dependent upon my parents, so the motivation is truly there, but I have a lot of difficulty implementing financial independence. I've strongly thought about moving back out to LA, which is what I wanted to do anyways. What's happening now is nothign close to what I wanted. I wanted to -- last november -- fly into chicago, do therapy work with my parents for about a month, get things resolved, and then get back to CA. However, I already mentioned what happened. It's been about 7 months, and I'm still in chicago. I have my own place, but it's still 'close by" to my parents. Additionally, I'm still financially independent upon them. So it seems like any emotional work I do to "understanding what happened in my childhood" won't be able to really manifest untill I am at the very least, financially independent from them, and "preferably financially indepenent and far away from them".

I know that's the goal, and I can worry about forgiving, and relinquishing grudges later on, but I don't know how to achieve that. I have a college degree but it is in something my parents are interested in (poltical science), nothing of what I am interested in. So, in short, it feels like I've been forced to live my parents' lives (except for a few months when I was 16, and a few months recently) my entire life. So in terms of "years living their life" I AM 23, but in terms of "years living my own life", I feel about 2 or 3 years old! Seriously. That's the truth, as riduluous or as over-reacted as it sounds!

Nobody likes to think their very own parents were purposely distructive towards them. But for whatever reasons, you seem to have been dealt a bad hand parent-wise. You are very young; most of your life has been spent under their influence. Put some geography and some time between them and yourself, and things will get better.

I think they had good intentions. I really do. However, intention has NOTHING to do with effect. And the effect they had on me was so destructive that it felt like they could be trying to do nothing other than infuriate, humiliate, and bury my emotional existence. Yeah, you're SO right. I was dealt a bad-hand parent-wise, and the worst thing about that atrocious situation was that it was so bad because they put so much energy trying to make it look good! I am in no way relating myself to physical abuse, have not experienced (fortunately) much of that, and can't imagine how terrible physical abuse is, but In other words, I'm saying someone who gets physically abused has a "better" hand than all this emotional abuse because atleast they can look back and say, with a clear concsience, "yeah, that was a really bad childhood. where to now?!" I don't have that luxury with so much emotional abuse, but I think it falls into the same category of modus operandi, I can still say " yeah, that was a really bad childhood. I may not be able to understand it the details of the trauma, but I know it was emotionally destructive, and where to now?!"

I remember the scene from good-will-hunting where he ends up realizing that his physical abuse "wasn't his fault" and then drives to california. That's EXACTLY what I want to do. precisely. However, I don't see a way to do that financially. So my best plan is to try to financially (quickly) build a base, a means of financial independence in chicago, now, so that I can do that, and can really start my life. The catch is I feel that I can most efficiently "connect with my identity" and really feel out who I am -- intrapersonal growth -- in LA, in CA, but I'm stuck in chicago a few miles away from my parents house. So that's a bit of a bind, but atleast it's an improvement from living IN their house with them!

Finally, one more thing. That was quite peculiar. I had a very heated and frustrating conversation with my father a few weeks ago (hopefully ties with him will diminish or be completely removed quickly) and he said, "I'm a good parent". I really didn't know what to say, so I just said what I've been superficially "saying" my entire life (except for the moment I was myself at 16 and a few other times), I responded, "I think that's true". I'm confused as to why I said that, when I so strongly feel the opposite. Maybe it's that my father truly WAS a good parent and my mother was incredibly manipulative? But then my father spends so much time trying to convince me that my mother is "helping me out" saying things like "your mom's your best friend. she's a fan" etc. It's just repulsive and frightening how much time they put into using words to bury what I actually feel,and had made me live a life and live a system of believes (that they were good parents) for such a long time. They are VERY intelligent, but they use that intelligence to bolster their pomp and condemn people who say otherwise. I really want to make sure I don't live like that, to extract myself from my parents, solidly develop my own beliefs and financialy independence and identity, to then use my intelligence to nurture myself and others and help them (and myself) discover how to become more intimate with and actually enjoy your emotions (instead of emotional betrayal, which is what my parents destructively encouraged).

Thanks for encouraging me, reaffirming what I am actually feeling, and taking the time to peruse my situation and offer very keen advice!

Actually, although understanding my childhood probably will help me relinquish the trauma and move forward, I realized I want to put much less time into "understanding my traumatic childhood" and much more time in developing my own financial independence, so that I can not distance myself from my childhood voice, but to then "self-heal" the childhood voice. I don't want to severe relationships with my childhood, but definitely want to sever relationships with my parents, and transcend childhood.

Puma,
By the way, how did you come to that conclusion? Does the idea that a seminar class brainwashing me in 4 days to think that my parents were terrible just sound ridiculous? My parents put so much time into "brainwashing me" to think that that that seminar "was" brainwashing that I'm still confused about it, but I feel that you're right! Parents WERE seriously misguided in their upbringing! I guess I should just put a ton of energy into financial independence pursuits? And then sort out the emotional trauma stuff later?!!

kooz wrote:Puma,
By the way, how did you come to that conclusion? Does the idea that a seminar class brainwashing me in 4 days to think that my parents were terrible just sound ridiculous? My parents put so much time into "brainwashing me" to think that that that seminar "was" brainwashing that I'm still confused about it, but I feel that you're right! Parents WERE seriously misguided in their upbringing! I guess I should just put a ton of energy into financial independence pursuits? And then sort out the emotional trauma stuff later?!!

Hi, Kooz,
To attempt to answer how I came to my conclusions, a little personal history. Although I didn't by any stretch of the imagination come close to the manipulation and denial of my personal feelings by my parents that you have suffered, I did have to live through an unpleasant scenario from the time I was 11 until I was 18. This is it: when I was 11 my mother married her 3rd husband. He and I got along great until after the wedding. Then he went from being my "big Brother Buddy" to being this pompous domineering violent expletive. But my mother insisted we were now a "family" and that I should think of him as my father. Get Real, already! I had already had 2 fathers, and they both fell out of my life, so I was not willing to have another "father", especially a scary one.
I felt like I was in some kind of Mommie Dearest movie, where we all had scripts written by my mother, and I sure detested the role I was supposed to play. Such emotional dishonesty. At times in my mid teens, while bedeviled with depression, I actually managed to make myself believe the lie, but the rage and sense of being just plain insulted, because I could not express my real feelings, or expect my mother to honor my feelings, Oh, it just galled me. Finally I just gave up and admitted to myself that I hated both my mother for negating my feelings, and her husband for the pompous ass he was. He didn't really like his script, either, and this caused much fighting between them.
Emotional honesty is the most important aspect of human relations. I'm an introvert with many schizoid traits, and maybe even a little Asperger's, but I know the truth in my heart. I honor my own son's feelings, and my grandchildren's. No lies concerning one's identity in my household! Instead of telling them who they are, I ask them who they are, by letting their natural personalities unfold in a tolerant environment.
I guess you can tell I feel strongly about this matter of honesty.
So...Yes, move away as soon as possible, even if you have to live in your car and take showers at the YMCA.
Your parents are "broken". You can't fix them. In a way, trying to fix them is like what they did to you all those years; trying to fix you. (Even though you weren't broken in the first place). Just leave them be.
You are a fledgeling adult. Spread your wings and fly.

puma wrote:

kooz wrote:Puma,
By the way, how did you come to that conclusion? Does the idea that a seminar class brainwashing me in 4 days to think that my parents were terrible just sound ridiculous? My parents put so much time into "brainwashing me" to think that that that seminar "was" brainwashing that I'm still confused about it, but I feel that you're right! Parents WERE seriously misguided in their upbringing! I guess I should just put a ton of energy into financial independence pursuits? And then sort out the emotional trauma stuff later?!!

Hi, Kooz,
To attempt to answer how I came to my conclusions, a little personal history. Although I didn't by any stretch of the imagination come close to the manipulation and denial of my personal feelings by my parents that you have suffered, I did have to live through an unpleasant scenario from the time I was 11 until I was 18. This is it: when I was 11 my mother married her 3rd husband. He and I got along great until after the wedding. Then he went from being my "big Brother Buddy" to being this pompous domineering violent expletive. But my mother insisted we were now a "family" and that I should think of him as my father. Get Real, already! I had already had 2 fathers, and they both fell out of my life, so I was not willing to have another "father", especially a scary one.
I felt like I was in some kind of Mommie Dearest movie, where we all had scripts written by my mother, and I sure detested the role I was supposed to play. Such emotional dishonesty. At times in my mid teens, while bedeviled with depression, I actually managed to make myself believe the lie, but the rage and sense of being just plain insulted, because I could not express my real feelings, or expect my mother to honor my feelings, Oh, it just galled me. Finally I just gave up and admitted to myself that I hated both my mother for negating my feelings, and her husband for the pompous ass he was. He didn't really like his script, either, and this caused much fighting between them.
Emotional honesty is the most important aspect of human relations. I'm an introvert with many schizoid traits, and maybe even a little Asperger's, but I know the truth in my heart. I honor my own son's feelings, and my grandchildren's. No lies concerning one's identity in my household! Instead of telling them who they are, I ask them who they are, by letting their natural personalities unfold in a tolerant environment.
I guess you can tell I feel strongly about this matter of honesty.
So...Yes, move away as soon as possible, even if you have to live in your car and take showers at the YMCA.
Your parents are "broken". You can't fix them. In a way, trying to fix them is like what they did to you all those years; trying to fix you. (Even though you weren't broken in the first place). Just leave them be.
You are a fledgeling adult. Spread your wings and fly.

Puma,
You're words are very validating.

That's something had to have been a jolting adjustment. I mean picking up and moving (changing locations) in youth is hard enough....but picking up and moving and changing fathers??? Wow, crazy "moves"! Can't personally relate, but can imagine how challenging that must have been.

I can relate to those sensations of a maternal figure trying to "coax you" into believing that the paternal figure is "compliant with your interests" and vice versa. I can relate to that. My question what' more disturbing?
1. That you had to treat a father you found scary, violent, domineering, and pompous as "family".
or
2. That your mother actually insisted upon your conforming to #1.

Bit of a hobson's choice. None of those are desirable. What is with that! What is with families aiming to conceal and bury and hide all these totally, bloody, royally obvious problems that exist between the family-members! This is the most ubiquitous (unfortunately) and enduringly maladaptive practice (next to smoking and causing cancer)! I mean, as you said it "get real, already"! This is like trying to prevent the "family that's already fallen apart" from "looking fallen apart". What your mom did is like trying to drive around in a car with two wheels, and one axel, and saying that this car "works" and it we'll call it "family from now on"! Self-delusions are so destructive. If something is fallen apart, or falling apart, why not let it crumble so everyone can breath more easily? What is with this behavior that we all have, on occasion, to, conceal and hide problems that create pain for people instead of fixing the problems!
I mean your mom is your mom - your health and interests are a legitimate concern!
I can definitely relate to being forced to mask your true emotions.

n regards to masking your true emotions, you're ahead of me because my true emotions towards my father (like yours, although probably not the same magnitude) was the he WAS pompous, domineering and very scary, too!

That's an interesting transformation from "Big Buddy Bro" to expletive descripiton. How did that make you feel? Betrayal, doubt, and a sock in the gut comes to mind if I envision that scenario.

I felt like I was in some kind of Mommie Dearest movie, where we all had scripts written by my mother, and I sure detested the role I was supposed to play.

Yes! Yes! Yes, oh my god, that is, yes, exactly the scenario in which I grew up! Some other scripts that my mommy made me "recite lines from" are:
1. Conceal your pain and anguish, our family is spectacular and here's why.
2. I know you dislike your father, but you have to treat him like a loving father.
3. Be nice to everyone you meet even if they treat you like s#%t.
4. My organizational habits are wrong; I took mommy and daddy's "seven steps" instead, and look how "not" (but really am) messed up I am!

The list goes on.
What are some more of the scripts in which you detested the role you had to play.

It's VERY relieving to hear you mention these family scripts because 1)they reaffirm that I did indeed have a HUGELY controlling mother and 2)that those days of playing the detestable family scripted roles are over--truly!javascript:emoticon(':idea:')

Yes, yes, emotional dishonesty rings true with what I've had to enduring with my parents who they are. That's doubly frustrating because emotional honesty is such a high value to me.

What made your 3rd dad (god,the insanity...) feel violent? domineering? pompous to you? I don't doubt that as reality, but it's useful to clarify the actions behind perceptions, don't you think?

Bedeviled with depression...NICE phrase -- definitely, seriously been there, too. Wanted to paint everything black.

Wow, believing lies that hurt the people the believe them. That seems like what families are all about these days! Bloody hell, people would be so much happier if they could just believe what they actually honestly felt (but then some families might fall apart, but others would certainly coalesce, would then not?!;)

Wow, I never thought about "never being express your own feelings" as something that's insulting, but that's Humiliating, mortifying, and incredibly disparaging! That's saying, you're my box, you say what I want, not what you want. Not allowing others to express their emotions is INCREDIBLY belittling and de-humanizing.

Unfortuantely, it seems like there's a lot of conspiracy and manipulation done in families to keep them "looking okay" but none of its members happy! The rare families that embrace open honesty and transparency are fantastic. This Board is a "good" family in that sense, for sure!:D

Finally I just gave up and admitted to myself that I hated both my mother for negating my feelings, and her husband for the pompous ass he was.

Wow, well put. You have serious substance and quality in your words. However, if I were you (and what you describe is exactly what I've been feeling), I'd say "my inhibitions gave up". You didn't give up on anything; YOU endured! Your emotional inhibitions did not....fortunately.

I think that sums up my relationship with my parents: mother was emotionally domineering and incredibly controlling and neglectful, whil e my father was an emotionally anethesized (after living with my mother who denies emotional honesty), hollow, unhappy, weak person who tried to look strong.

I remember screaming at my parents (this was probably the biggest -- most epic -- fight we had ever had) and making my own father cry not out of pity, not out of "why is my son so messed up?", not out of "why is this happening?", but just out of raw fear. Do you know how interesting that felt to see my own father -- the person who had created so much dread and uncertainty for me -- actually cry and tremble and cower at my words? It was, trust me, a VERY alarming feeling. I felt myself getting mad at him. Part of me wanted to tend to his emotions and say "it's okay, it will be okay, dad", but then the his desensitized way of interacting with me coiled through my viens and I almost remember trying to ridicule him. I certainly wasn't proud of that, but I definitely felt no shame, either. I felt incredibly emotional honesty and strong and good. My mother, during this whole time remained perfectly calm, cool, and controlled, as she always is. Why? I don't know.

My mother is emotionally controlling, my father is emotionally controlled by her. Both of them either neglect or encourage you to conceal your emotions. I got out of that emotional deathtrap!

But saying you "gave up" implies shame. You didn't give up on anything. If you DID give up, then you would have been emotionally suffocated. The illumination to your soul endured and you promulgated the clarity of your authentic emotional resilience. Your characteristic accomplishment is as much of an accomplishment as becoming a billionaire, being a best-selling novelist, winning some high achievement of any kind...by far.javascript:emoticon(':!:')

Wow, so it sounds like you "became real" much earlier than I did -- I tried to do that at 16 and off and on throughout -- but they always reinforced those inhibitions. I'm here communicating this today, so I certainly endured and "didn't give up" and thrived, too, like you. Fortuanately! That's admirable that you tried to let the cat out of the bag (emotionally) with your parents while living with them; that didn't feel like an option for me. That felt like -- becaue of the amount of fear I had at them at the time -- going up to some gigantic bully and pinching his neck, it felt such an action would be "suicide". But on the contrary, emotional suicide was what I would've gotten if I didn't relinquish my inhibitions begin declaring what I actually feel, some of which I am declaring right here in this post!

How did your father convey his dislike of your "new script" (or rather your choice to completley discard any script and totally communicate from what you should be communicating -- you emotions)?

Ah, schizoid, shmizoid, Asperger's Shpaspergers....Define introversion. What's this? You'r communicating with people on a board, here. Posting your feelings and beliefs abound and around for all to see. I think that's more extroverted -- FAR more --than going to a party where everyone talks the same script over and over again. What makes you feel introverted? schizoid, apsergers?

The heart's veracity is only progressive truth worthwhile of even engaging. javascript:emoticon(':shock:')

That's incredibly admirable and impressive that you chose to break the cycle of familial suffering (chose NOT to be a replica of emotionally perverse and destructive parents) and are nourishing your own children's emotional well-being! Congrats! I'm putting all my energy into doing that for my own health and then for others and my "extended family (probably, non-blood related;but we're all human, right;)" as well. Thich Nhat Hanh mentions how difficult, but necessary that cycle is to break. Sounds like Thich would give you an A+ gold star for your emotional honesty! Big time.

No lies concerning one's identity in my household! Instead of telling them who they are, I ask them who they are, by letting their natural personalities unfold in a tolerant environment. son's feelings, and my grandchildren's. No lies concerning one's identity in my household! Instead of telling them who they are, I ask them who they are, by letting their natural personalities unfold in a tolerant environment.

YEs!!! That is totally the ticket that I needed to have in my childhood. I just had some moron post a response that seemed to ridicule what I was feeling; such emotional ridiculing is SO dangerous and SO villifying to one's identity because it causes you to disconnect from your heart -- disconnet from your biggest source of motivation and veracity.

One HUGE source of doubt continuation, that perpetuates the replicating of these scripts over-and-over-and-over again is money. People feel they need to conceal their true emotions, suck it up, and earn a paycheck, and accidentally, the dangerous downward spiral of emotional dishonesty starts there. How do we awaken such a long slumber of emotional honesty (living in the world of emotional dishonesty)? Lao tzu suggests we question things and writes, "Throw away holiness and wisdom, and people will be a hundred times happier." When we really question things instead of "holiness and wisdom" -- basically "scripts! -- that have been handed down by parents or teachers or other sources, we can start the emotional healing.

"Letting natural personalities unfold in a tolerant environment" is such a tremendous gift! And I seriously think you've helped me cultivate awareness of and share my natural personality with your keen and tremendously helpful responses in this forum, even!:) Seriously! Your ability to elicit and affective nurture others' personalities is not limited to only your own children! I speak from first-hand experience!!:D

For the sake of learning more ways to ensure emotional safety and honesty, how do you create a "tolerant enivoronment"? I mean, that's what my parents thought they were creating (and are still under the illusion that they accomplished that, when they severely did not), but how do you know that the environment is tolerant without feeling "walked all over". I guess you just disown any sensations of feelign walk all over! That makes sense!

I guess you can tell I feel strongly about this matter of honesty. Laughing
So...Yes, move away as soon as possible, even if you have to live in your car and take showers at the YMCA.
Your parents are "broken". You can't fix them. In a way, trying to fix them is like what they did to you all those years; trying to fix you. (Even though you weren't broken in the first place). Just leave them be.

I am seriously considering packing up tonight and just driving back out to CA, tonight! I fear a few obstacles will get in the way, though:
1. Fear of not having financial coverage (assuming that if I do leave, my parents will cut off all financial help) and becoming homeless or stranded.
2. Well, #1 is the only obstacle, now that I think about it, other than subletting the chicago apartment and just booking it and truly going back to CA.

Anothe small minimal obstacle is that I could get caught up in the small details (like subletting and timing and those could delay me, but, actually, my own emotional honesty, my own personal intregity, my own frickin' identity are MUCH MUCH higher values -- those are the highest values by far!!!) Yes, I really feel like I'm doing the right thing. Like I am being honest with myself.

Your last comment hit my like a mack truck of profound reality. My parents ARE broken, but me trying to fix them IS exactly what they did to me, and that behavior is EXACTLY what makes them broken. So if I continue to try to "fix them", I not only would be becoming more and more like them, but I'd be treating them in a way that made me feel so suffocated, despondent, and confused for all those years! I HAVE taken showers at gyms (are YMCAs free?) and done the living out of the car thing. IT's indescribable how incredibly identifying and centering that felt -- some of the most identifying and emotionally honest (because I was truly on my own away from parents) moments were during the time I lived out of my car.

My mom wrote a book (although much of it was targetted at me to make my teenage decisions look problematic and ill-advised. Basically her book denouncd my incredible moments of emotional authenticity) it was called, ironically enough, "sacred flight of the teenager". I don't care if it's sacred, but it is sure is incredibly emotionally darnd important and incredibly vital to my essence to make the flight of the adult occur...soon! I am going to put all of my energy into making that happen. I'm totally open to any tips on overcoming the financial obstacle. I could, literally (totally seriously) leave tonight/tomorrow, but I'm afraid I'd run out of funds.

Killing off someone emotionally truly is burying yourself; helping someone else is truly saving yourself.

Thanks!!

What's distubing to me is that I didn't try to nurture my father's feelings that one time he cried. I mean it's different for interacting with the people who directly caused you so much emotional repression and dishonesty, but becaue I didn't try to help him, that could show my inclination to be like my parents emotionally. I seriously do not want that to happen and like you and your upbringing, want to try to foster a totally and multi-dimensionally fully, comprehensively emotionally tolerant environment in evey respect for myself,friends, and "newer" family!

kooz wrote:What's distubing to me is that I didn't try to nurture my father's feelings that one time he cried. I mean it's different for interacting with the people who directly caused you so much emotional repression and dishonesty, but becaue I didn't try to help him, that could show my inclination to be like my parents emotionally. I seriously do not want that to happen and like you and your upbringing, want to try to foster a totally and multi-dimensionally fully, comprehensively emotionally tolerant environment in evey respect for myself,friends, and "newer" family!

Hi, Kooz,
It is very common to abhor any resemblance to one's parents when one is separating from the nest and redefining his own identity, even if the parents in question were good ones. In some ways we will have traits of our parents. But they are not our only parents. What I mean is, your parents have traits of their parents, who had traits of their parents, an exponential fanning out into all of humanity. All of humanity is our parents. The two small individuals whom we call mother and father are but a tiny link in this vast cultural and physical chain.
Two things come of this:
1. We can learn from their mistakes
2. We can begin to forgive them their weaknesses. Your father's tears moved you even though at the time you chose not to act. Trying to give comfort whilst embroiled in a rage is impossible.
To gain perspective, look at your parents as though you were a historian. They didn't just spring out of the earth from nothing; there is a history there which might shed light on why they are the way the are. A frightened little girl grew up to be a control freak; why did she have to hide under that table in the first place?

SOMETHING emotionally traumatic sure happened throughout my childhood, but I can't fully describe it's complexity. I think it has a lot to do with my mothers intrinsic timiidty (very shy growing up -- hiding under tables) coupled with her exertion for control over the family (ALWAYS calling the shots about big life decisions), coupled with neglected and suppressed poor emotional relationship with my father, who buried the emotional trauma he experiencd being raised by alcoholics, and they did a lot of emotionally dumping onto me.

See, you are already on the road to having greater insight, and eventually compassion, for these weak, damaged souls.

As you become an independant adult making your own way in the world, your parents will recede into the background; leave the stage, so to speak, curtain call.
You don't have to fear becoming just like them. Your struggle to gain understanding and perspective pretty much guarantees that.
Severing all financial ties cannot be stressed enough. In order to be free, you have got to be independant. This may be scary, but it can also be exhilarating! The resentment and self doubt will fade rapidly as you face real world challenges out on your own.