Unspecified Dilemma

puma wrote:Hi, kooz,
Acing job interviews was never one of my strong points, either. I've added a couple of links here:
http://www.quintcareers.com/job_intervi ... ation.html
http://www.job-interview.net/Bank/JobIn ... stions.htm
You are so bright and articulate; I am not sure what is going wrong with your interviews.
I hope this helps. Not knowing what one is doing wrong is very frustrating. It may help to ask employers why you weren't hired. Like, what did I not have that is essential to being hired by you?
With me, I realised that I would get nervous and babble. So I practiced acting calm and not talking out of nervousness. Making friendly eye contact, and not elaborating on questions and answers, but keeping my responses clear and simple.
This is a physical step you can take; Job interview coaching.

Thanks a ton for the articulate compliment. I work hard on cogency and coherent thinking, writing, communication, so that praise means a lot. Thanks.

Secondly, the "interview etiquette" of staying clear, calm, and speaking without the catalyst of anxiety definitley will create a smoother interview process". However, a lot of the places the interview goes great and the position just "gets filled". I'd feel incredibly infuriated if they just said that and concealed some other reason! I deserve to know how they truly made the decision!

I'll obviously make a more conscious effort to figure out "what caused an employer to not hire me", although I have been doing that.

A lot of the times the employer says "they filled the position" already, which gives me NO help. I'm open to criticize; at this point I WANT criticism!

I've even applied to grocery stores, delis, places I could in many ways, have over-qualifications, for, but can't get hired in those places even!

Immensely frustrating.

Anways, the hiking trip I applied to; they said they found another leader; most places don't get back to me; I want detailed rejection if I recieve rejection -- all of I've got is the most general rejection possible!

You've picked a REALLY good point. I DESERVE to hear exactly what I did that made them decide to not hire me!

In a way, by not providing that, most of those employer's not only display disrespect, but practice a form of cruelty! You can't help someone without detailed specifics

An example is the above post I made to lifesong! I gave her specific, detailed, incredibly thorough reasons why her advice didn't work and why yours did! If that was the form of an "interview" , I would have practiced that.

Well, thanks again, for opening my eyes to that. I deserve to get feedback from every place I apply to (which has been over a hundred now). I think I might try to be highly demanding that I get that feedback (the details behing why I wasn't hired). This way I'll be able to know what qualities similar employers desire or do not like. Thanks.

Hi, Kooz,
More job interview stuff:
"Five Dumb Things Job Applicants Do


By Tag and Catherine Goulet, FabJob.com


Are you the type of employee who would say inappropriate things to clients or embarrass your boss in front of senior management?

No? Well, until there is solid evidence to the contrary, someone considering hiring you may fear you could be that type of employee.

Even if you would never dream of deliberately making your boss look bad, if you mess up on the job, the consequences can be just as damaging to your boss's career as they are to yours. Your boss may have to face co-workers, clients, her own boss and others who question her judgment in hiring you and her abilities to train and manage a team. It’s no wonder employers will weed out job applicants for the slightest indiscretion.

To avoid scaring off employers, make sure you avoid these five dumb things job applicants do:

1. They don’t follow instructions
At a recent company lunch, someone handed a hiring manager a résumé for a position that had just been filled. The applicant had made the mistake of mailing it to a customer service address instead of submitting it online as instructed.

Failing to follow instructions may not only cause you to miss the deadline, it may also make you appear to be a potentially difficult employee. After all, if someone can't follow a few simple steps at this stage, how would that person perform on the job?

2. They disclose too much information
A cover letter shouldn't begin with irrelevant personal information such as: “I'm a 40-year-old mother of three who has experienced many challenges in life." While job seekers may think they are creating a bond with the hiring manager by “letting you get to know me,” employers are turned off by "too much information." From an employer's point of view, an applicant who makes inappropriate personal disclosures may be likely to exercise poor judgment in other areas as well.

Information to keep to yourself includes your age, health, family, how you like to spend your weekends or anything else unrelated to the position you are applying for. In addition, make sure you aren't saying too much with an email address such as bigsexymama@hotmail.com.

3. They behave rudely
Of course you wouldn't hire someone who honked and gestured angrily at you in the parking lot, snapped at the receptionist and argued into his cell phone in earshot of customers waiting in the reception area. Nevertheless, job hunters have made these and many other faux pas.

Human beings have bad days, and interviews can be particularly stressful, but an employer who witnesses or hears about even a hint of rudeness is likely to assume it's only a small taste of things to come if the applicant is hired. So be on your best behavior with everyone you encounter.

And don't make the mistake of badmouthing your former employer; an interviewer is likely to assume that's how you'll be talking about them if they hire you.

4. They say dumb things
Foolish statements can include obvious gaffes such as asking an interviewer who's slightly overweight when her baby is due… but sometimes it's not so obvious.

“Before I saw your job ad, I'd never heard of your company,” one applicant for a marketing position told an employer, oblivious to the fact that the interviewer's proudest achievements included overseeing marketing campaigns that had generated millions of dollars worth of publicity for the company, an industry leader.

To avoid appearing ignorant, familiarize yourself with the company by reading their Web site before the interview. To avoid blurting out an inappropriate comment, pause before answering questions and if you think something might be taken “the wrong way,” don't say it!

5. They don't focus on the employer's needs
When a company is looking to fill a position, it's because they have a need. They may want to expand into new markets, cut costs, improve services, increase profits or achieve something else they have identified as important to their success.

Yet applicants often ignore employers' needs. Some focus on their own needs, such as asking about vacation time before they receive a job offer. Others are high maintenance, taking up an employer's time by phoning or emailing throughout the application process with questions like: "Can you tell me all about the job so I can decide whether to apply?" or "Can you give me feedback about how I did during the interview?"

Others try to tell companies they should have different needs, like the applicant for a sales position who said “the first thing I'd want to do is get rid of your slogan” although the company owners were happy with the slogan they had spent thousands of dollars developing and trademarking.

Companies usually communicate their needs both in the job ad and during the interview. Pay attention to what they say, ask questions such as “What are your top priorities?” then tell them how you can help them achieve their goals.

Send a thank-you note after the interview and make sure your references will say only wonderful things about you. Show an employer you will be the type of employee who is pleasure to work with."

http://msn.careerbuilder.com/custom/msn ... &GT1=10268
Have you had any success landing a job yet?
Edit: we posted back to back...well, I'm chagrined to see you haven't had success yet. Hang in there, babe! Take care when asking for feedback on not getting hired that you don't telegraph hostility and inadvertently burn your bridges.
Like, not:" Why the ###$ didn't you hire me, you schmuck!"
But:" What are you looking for in an employee? I would be most grateful for feedback."

A great chapter in this book showed that my parents will never be whom I want them to be. They’ll always do things that are s stupid, foul, and wrong It doesn’t matter if they write the most fascinating books or bestsellers or do little things, you have to “give up hope” that your parents will morph into ideal people. Doing that allows you to move on. You must never think that your parents have good impact on you – you try to convince yourself that they “try to help” or write with great words or something, and that maybe be true – however, they’ve given you suffering, problems, yelling, screaming, confusion, and pain for over 6 to 7 years and longer (running away), never forget that and never forget that they will never change.

I’ve got to stop banging my head against the wall expecting it to turn into a door. My parents will never become who I want them to be. I’vegot to stop getting acceptance of that and then throwing myself back into disappointment with them. This isn’t sad; it’s exciting and reuvenating because it means finally moving on with my life and focusing on quality truths and MY new family without diverting back to my prboelem-ridden parents.It’s obvious that I’ve put A LOT of energy into trying to morph my parents into whom I want them to be – they write like great authors sometimes, they stay I ndecent health, they earn money, but they timb is hollow, conceited, and always disappointing and ezra is neglectful of my interests, always incriminating, and focuses on te wrong things When you realize you that it’s perfectly okay and healthy to not be satisfied with whom they are, and how they treat you, you finally liberate yourself to move on and stop injuring yourself over and over.
What you do with stocks is what you do with parents. I buy stocks, they go up, then plummet, then I feel thankful to get out with the money I put int; sell before they plummet, stop letting your parents many inadequacies drag you down ; don’t buy into them!

What you do with stocks is what you do with parents. I buy stocks, they go up, then plummet, then I feel thankful to get out with the money I put in; sell before they plummet, stop letting your parents many inadequacies drag you down ; don’t buy into them!
Part of my problem was that I would throw months of my life down the drain in agony because they “disapproved-of” quality of my parents made me upset. Parents will always disapprove, frequently disagree, with their children, so why try to morph them into people who “make you feel better”. The biggest step we have to learn is our parents have good and bad aspects, but most importantly that they are NOT extensions of you! You have your own identity, uniqueness, and originality.
You have to distinguish avoiable hurt from unavoidable hurt. An unavoidable hurt is realizing that your mother, for example, is incapable of loving and will always ridiculously find flaws in you. An avoidable hurt is accepting that and to stop expecting your parents to act differently. Stop throwing yourself in their meat-grinder of vacant love expecting it to produce a birthday cake of happiness! Accept that your parents have flaws, are not extensions of you, seriously hurt you, and will continue to hurt you if you remain connected with them. This prevents you from tripping up and reverting back to “needing their love and approval”, which only causes problems.

This great book I read said phases exist to deal with a bad childhood.
I've already done, "shock and denail; awareness that I've been abused, and offended"
What I'm working on now is:
3. Appropriate expressions of feelings of hurt, grief, anger --- I think I've done this.
4. VAlidation of your perspective; some form of justice ---- ironically I think posting to this board; the therapy I did already di that.
5. A plan for minimizing the opportunity to be hurt by the wrongdoer again.
6. Letting go and moving on with your life --- I've done this once before but I didn't have #5 figured out, so I ended up reverting back to old habits.

For me, #5, I feel is my biggest challenge. Financialy independence will be monumentally massive for ensuring that!

I have a lot of trust in the people, posters, and nature of this forum. It's free and operates from incredibly altruistic intentions. I feel like I've learned tremendously vital life lessons from the posters on this forum, that will prevent years of pain and create joyful eras of prosperity, success, and long-lasting happiness in my life. Ebullience emerges with that faith and recognition; I just must continue to connect with the people that uplift and nourish, and actively exclude and say "no" to the people (like parents, in my case) that disappoint, hurt, and aggravate.

One that that keeps happening, however, is my parents -- both of them-- continually ask me if I want to join them for dinner or for lunch or something. Obviously, I'm revolted at even the suggestion, but they don't seem to understand how much pain, doubt, confusion, and turmoil (breathing problems, enuresis when around them, etc.) they've caused me so I don't lash out at the suggestion. I will never acquiesce to meeting with them, but don't feel comfortable saying "no" (until I get financial independence). So I say "maybe' (which I mean as "no"). That seems like the safest thing to say, but not really want I want to say (which is "definitely not")!

I'm glad that you're benefitting from the forum and that you feel you've gotten good advice and support. The hardest thing about mental/emotional child abuse is the feeling that you can't trust your own perception and feelings, that you've always been invalidated. I think this forum is awesome for getting a "reality check" for those of us who have been damaged so much that we're confused by what we are thinking and feeling.

kooz wrote:One that that keeps happening, however, is my parents -- both of them-- continually ask me if I want to join them for dinner or for lunch or something. Obviously, I'm revolted at even the suggestion, but they don't seem to understand how much pain, doubt, confusion, and turmoil (breathing problems, enuresis when around them, etc.) they've caused me so I don't lash out at the suggestion. I will never acquiesce to meeting with them, but don't feel comfortable saying "no" (until I get financial independence). So I say "maybe' (which I mean as "no"). That seems like the safest thing to say, but not really want I want to say (which is "definitely not")!

Something I just learned, and am working on accepting, is that you don't have to have a reason to say "No" and you certainly don't have to a reason that they will find justifies your refusal. It's perfectly okay to just say "No, thank you." You don't have to confront them, or give them a reason, or make them understand - just "No, thank you." or, if they press, "No, thank you, I have other plans." You don't have to tell them your plans, and your plans don't have to be firm or important -- relaxing in front of the TV or reading a book, that's plans. "Maybe" is a flakey answer and it really just leaves you vulnerable because it's not a firm boundary. Saying "no" is firm and assertive; and you'll feel better about yourself and your boundaries for having said it!

plicketycat wrote:I'm glad that you're benefitting from the forum and that you feel you've gotten good advice and support. The hardest thing about mental/emotional child abuse is the feeling that you can't trust your own perception and feelings, that you've always been invalidated.

YES. This exactly is what I feel. For example, I feel currently trapped between two worlds: 1)following my parents line of work and working at that and feeling "approve", but ultimately hating that line of work or 2)being "disapproved" or renounced and expecting to feel guilt for not being "successful' with my parents' work, when, in reality, I never wanted anything to do with that stuff in the first place! I understand however that I have greater choices than those undesirable options. That's been the abusive trap that my parents have been using though: "you work with us and do what we want or, ohhh, you're a bad kid, you're unsuccessful, we dont' approve, and "you're fired". That type of thinking shows their limitations and I musnt't subject myself to that psychological trap by honoring them, but realizing that I can't love them and can't demand anything from them.

I think this forum is awesome for getting a "reality check" for those of us who have been damaged so much that we're confused by what we are thinking and feeling.

YES! Totally, this forum (along with a few other rare connections) provides the support and certainty that I've craved and have been neglected for so long. You live under the assumption that parents=reality for so long, but that couldn't be further from the truth, many times parents operate from delusions and serious disconnections from reality!

Few awesome posters like yourself as well as the nourishing, eye-opening, reality-checking nature of this board provide invaluable insight that would be, otherwise, difficult to access.

AND.....the replies occur sometimes instantaneously as well as with profoundly illuminating insight!

kooz wrote:One that that keeps happening, however, is my parents -- both of them-- continually ask me if I want to join them for dinner or for lunch or something. Obviously, I'm revolted at even the suggestion, but they don't seem to understand how much pain, doubt, confusion, and turmoil (breathing problems, enuresis when around them, etc.) they've caused me so I don't lash out at the suggestion. I will never acquiesce to meeting with them, but don't feel comfortable saying "no" (until I get financial independence). So I say "maybe' (which I mean as "no"). That seems like the safest thing to say, but not really want I want to say (which is "definitely not")!

Something I just learned, and am working on accepting, is that you don't have to have a reason to say "No" and you certainly don't have to a reason that they will find justifies your refusal. It's perfectly okay to just say "No, thank you." You don't have to confront them, or give them a reason, or make them understand - just "No, thank you." or, if they press, "No, thank you, I have other plans." You don't have to tell them your plans, and your plans don't have to be firm or important -- relaxing in front of the TV or reading a book, that's plans. "Maybe" is a flakey answer and it really just leaves you vulnerable because it's not a firm boundary. Saying "no" is firm and assertive; and you'll feel better about yourself and your boundaries for having said it![/quote]

I know that it' acceptable to say, "no, thanks" but I fear the repercussions of that. I fear them saying, fine, we won't financially support you, throwing a fit, and getting enraged. Although "maybe" is less desireable for me, it seems "safer" on teh other hand, I would want someone to be direct and say "no" if they meant no (which I intend to convery) so maybe they deserve the same respect (to hear no when that's what I mean) . The problem with saying maybe is that it leaves that "vulnerable and open in my life" They "hold daggers" in my eyes and are not the "grey" people but the enemies that have and do hurt, so I shouldn't leave things open. However, they'll keep asking, if I just continue to say "i have plans, they'll know i'm avoiding them (which is the case)!

Maybe is flaky, superficial (the LA anser, that I love)!

I think you're right about feeling more self-directed and true to myself saying "no", but I still fear the consequences. In the long run, it would clarify my life, though.

I have zero practice saying "no" (i've always been a self-destructive yes-man, and even "maybe" felt like a challenge!), so this will feel very challenging.

Thanks a TON for the solid, honest, direct, and helpful response, plickety, really appreciate your solid wisdom. Your religions, anti-family insights generates a profound sense of the pervasive scope of needing to ensure our own confidence. I feel I've grown from your response. Thanks, man!

puma wrote:Hi, Kooz,
More job interview stuff:
"Five Dumb Things Job Applicants Do


By Tag and Catherine Goulet, FabJob.com


Are you the type of employee who would say inappropriate things to clients or embarrass your boss in front of senior management?

No? Well, until there is solid evidence to the contrary, someone considering hiring you may fear you could be that type of employee.

Even if you would never dream of deliberately making your boss look bad, if you mess up on the job, the consequences can be just as damaging to your boss's career as they are to yours. Your boss may have to face co-workers, clients, her own boss and others who question her judgment in hiring you and her abilities to train and manage a team. It’s no wonder employers will weed out job applicants for the slightest indiscretion.

Wow, the consequences of hiring the "wrong person". Never thought of that! If the job applicant fouls up, it looks bad on the hiring person's tab. interesting. incredibly helpful considering things from their perspective. So, look confident, organized, clean, punctual (good job qualities) so the hiring manager, recruit, casting director (whatever the filtration system) feels confident in hiring you! Job interviews are not about "portraying" confidence, but restoring it in the hiring person!

To avoid scaring off employers, make sure you avoid these five dumb things job applicants do:

1. They don’t follow instructions
At a recent company lunch, someone handed a hiring manager a résumé for a position that had just been filled. The applicant had made the mistake of mailing it to a customer service address instead of submitting it online as instructed.

Failing to follow instructions may not only cause you to miss the deadline, it may also make you appear to be a potentially difficult employee. After all, if someone can't follow a few simple steps at this stage, how would that person perform on the job?

puma - incredibly helpful here! Makes so much sense. you can neglect minute procedural details, but this reflects on your character. I should treat job interviews like compiling computer source code -- everything stands VERY precise and carefully checked.

2. They disclose too much information
A cover letter shouldn't begin with irrelevant personal information such as: “I'm a 40-year-old mother of three who has experienced many challenges in life." While job seekers may think they are creating a bond with the hiring manager by “letting you get to know me,” employers are turned off by "too much information." From an employer's point of view, an applicant who makes inappropriate personal disclosures may be likely to exercise poor judgment in other areas as well.

Information to keep to yourself includes your age, health, family, how you like to spend your weekends or anything else unrelated to the position you are applying for. In addition, make sure you aren't saying too much with an email address such as bigsexymama@hotmail.com.

haha. good call. employers want you to do work, not bring emotional challenges into the workplace (clarify the emotional stuff on great forums like these where people are more qualified to give you honest, sincere, helpful advice!)

I admit, I may have "not left personal life" at the door, which is what you should do with most jobs. I felt that the "whole person should be taken into account". in an ideal world it should and I'll get that, but to get back in the hiring game, this makes a LOT of sense. Thanks! this could've been my biggest form of self-sabotage: I believed you apply a a "whole person" and shouldn't partition your personality into segments, that's true for a family for a long-term relationship, but for a job, you should just present your "work personality"!

3. They behave rudely
Of course you wouldn't hire someone who honked and gestured angrily at you in the parking lot, snapped at the receptionist and argued into his cell phone in earshot of customers waiting in the reception area. Nevertheless, job hunters have made these and many other faux pas.

Human beings have bad days, and interviews can be particularly stressful, but an employer who witnesses or hears about even a hint of rudeness is likely to assume it's only a small taste of things to come if the applicant is hired. So be on your best behavior with everyone you encounter.

And don't make the mistake of badmouthing your former employer; an interviewer is likely to assume that's how you'll be talking about them if they hire you.

I don't have to worry so much about etiquette. but a good reminder. I'll DEFINITELY keep this list. thanks man!

4. They say dumb things
Foolish statements can include obvious gaffes such as asking an interviewer who's slightly overweight when her baby is due… but sometimes it's not so obvious.

“Before I saw your job ad, I'd never heard of your company,” one applicant for a marketing position told an employer, oblivious to the fact that the interviewer's proudest achievements included overseeing marketing campaigns that had generated millions of dollars worth of publicity for the company, an industry leader.

To avoid appearing ignorant, familiarize yourself with the company by reading their Web site before the interview. To avoid blurting out an inappropriate comment, pause before answering questions and if you think something might be taken “the wrong way,” don't say it!

This I do. I always read up on the "cliffnotes" of the company beforehand.

5. They don't focus on the employer's needs
When a company is looking to fill a position, it's because they have a need. They may want to expand into new markets, cut costs, improve services, increase profits or achieve something else they have identified as important to their success.

Yet applicants often ignore employers' needs. Some focus on their own needs, such as asking about vacation time before they receive a job offer. Others are high maintenance, taking up an employer's time by phoning or emailing throughout the application process with questions like: "Can you tell me all about the job so I can decide whether to apply?" or "Can you give me feedback about how I did during the interview?"

Others try to tell companies they should have different needs, like the applicant for a sales position who said “the first thing I'd want to do is get rid of your slogan” although the company owners were happy with the slogan they had spent thousands of dollars developing and trademarking.

Companies usually communicate their needs both in the job ad and during the interview. Pay attention to what they say, ask questions such as “What are your top priorities?” then tell them how you can help them achieve their goals.

Send a thank-you note after the interview and make sure your references will say only wonderful things about you. Show an employer you will be the type of employee who is pleasure to work with."

http://msn.careerbuilder.com/custom/msn ... &GT1=10268
Have you had any success landing a job yet?
Edit: we posted back to back...well, I'm chagrined to see you haven't had success yet. Hang in there, babe! Take care when asking for feedback on not getting hired that you don't telegraph hostility and inadvertently burn your bridges.
Like, not:" Why the ###$ didn't you hire me, you schmuck!"
But:" What are you looking for in an employee? I would be most grateful for feedback."

In conclusion:
1. Be impeccable with nuance -- seemingly unimportant instructions. Those meticulous details our my bane! I hate those things and in rqualty emotional relationships, they are so unimportant! But in the job world they count. Seperate job world from relationship world to get hired by the conventional employer.
2. Same as above basically.
3. Be polite. Again, I have etiquette, but honesty is higher up on my scale than politeness. STrange that the good values for relationships don't work in the typical job world. You've got to have a seperate belief system for job (and don't share your emotional problems) or be your own boss. I don't like that, but it seems true.
4. Do cliffnotes research and tap into what the employer's values are. Cater to those. At first this is against my personal belief system of honesty and integrity, but how to get around that...hmmm.. I guess just realize that employers hire you for their tasks (maybe this is why it's so difficult for me to get hired. I want to create my own plan, my own business, and don't want to do someone else's plan -- which is the backbone of employment)

5. Get hired to serve the employees needs. This does not mean you detach yourself from your own needs (you can alway snourish those) but work time is set aside for the employer's needs.