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Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

An Open Discussion on Physical Abuse.

Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

Postby trombonejazz » Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:44 am

I've just been having the toughest time deciding what to do.

I've been with my husband for 8 years and we have 3 kids. When my first baby was a few months old (6 years ago), I think was when the first physical incident happened. I don't remember the argument, I just remember that he ended up pulling me out of the house by my hair and locking me out. I remember being so upset and feeling so ashamed of what had just happened. I remember thinking I had really mad him mad.

Since that time he has been physical a few times - but it happens so rarely, like once or twice a year, that I really have a hard time believing he is actually abusive. And he definitely does not believe he is. In the past he has shoved tables into me, pushed me, put his hands around my neck (without crushing), hit me, grabbed me, etc. For some reason though, it never even occurred to me that it was abuse - I always remember feeling so ashamed and like I had caused it.

Then a year ago we had the worst incident up to that point. He shoved me against a wall, held his hand over my face so hard I thought he was breaking my nose and told me if I ever talked to him like that again, he would crush my face in. He then forced me out of the house and locked the door and refused to let me take the kids. I was trembling and crying. I tried to get back in the house, but he had locked the chain lock. A few minutes later he opened the door and started throwing some of my collectible items out the door at me, one by one, all broken and completely destroyed. My heart broke into a million pieces. I kept feeling my nose and crying, sure it was broken. Then I heard him go into the garage and start throwing stuff around. At this point my oldest son got a chair and unlocked the chain lock, I grabbed all 3 of the kids, ran out to the car and drove around the corner (so he wouldn't see me if he came out). That was the first time I was genuinely scared. He sent me a text message saying to bring back the car and the kids or he'd break the rest of my stuff. I dropped the kids off at his moms house and brought it back. He then locked himself in the bathroom and sat in the tub with razor blades and an anatomy book for 2 hrs, telling me he was going to kill himself.

The next day I apologized and somehow I decided to stay with him. I called one of my friends and told her about it. She immediately told me I should leave and she said that her and my other best friend from college had seen verbal and emotional abuse at the very beginning of our relationship and had been waiting to see if it would turn physical. But they never told me this, and I had no idea they were watching out for me all this time - and I had never told them about any of the physical stuff before this. That was the very first time anyone had used the word "abuse" with me, and that was the first time it dawned on me maybe our relationship is abusive. For the next few months I had nightmares of him killing himself, killing me, and killing the kids. But last December I took him out to dinner and made him swear to me that he would never be physical with me again. He promised me it never would happen again. I felt good about it.

Then in May of this year he pushed me, 3 times. I remember being nervous and wondering if it was starting again. In June he slapped me, 3 times. And I was really upset. And then in July we were arguing over getting the kids ready to go, and he lunged across the room at me, tackled me, and then started to strangle me. I really believed I was going to die. When he finally let go, I stumbled into the other room, grabbed my phone, ran outside and called the police. I came back inside to see if the kids were alright, and he told me he was going to kill himself and locked himself in the bathroom with zip ties and pliers. I knew the police would get there before he could kill himself.

He was arrested, put in jail, and charged with spousal battery. He was convicted a couple months later and is now in court-ordered batterers therapy. I thought we were done for sure, but somehow I decided to go back because I just couldn't bare the thought of losing our whole family. He has promised me - again - that he will never be physical again. He says this time he means it because he never, ever wants to go back to jail again.

Now, he is saying that I am the abusive one. He says that I have been emotionally abusive towards him the entire relationship, and that my emotional abuse led him to be physically abusive. I am trying to remember things, but everything in our past is so fuzzy to me and I don't really remember. I remember feeling guilty every time he hurt me and truly believing it was my fault at the time, so I do wonder if he's right and I was always emotionally abusive to him? The only reason I think maybe he's not right, is because apparently my 2 friends saw HIM being verbally/emotionally abusive towards me in public at the very beginning and took it upon themselves to be "watching out for me" this whole time.

The only emotional abuse I can really remember on my end is name-calling. He has always called me awful names, and for a period of time I did it back to him because I was so angry. But at some point I decided that wasn't me and I did not like calling him names, so I stopped. I stopped about 5 years ago.

I just don't know what to do. I don't want him to kill me, or the kids. But the physical incidents don't happen that often? It's like things don't seem that bad in the many months in between each episode. And a huge part of me does not believe this is really him, or that he really will hurt me again. I want to believe him, but I just don't know. Is this really abuse?
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Re: Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

Postby seabreezeblue » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:38 pm

this is absolutely, definitely, 100% abuse.


He is severely abusing you right now.. his hands may have stopped hurting you for this moment but he's moved on to severely emotionally abusing you instead.. he's even gaslighting you :(

If he genuinely cared about you and respected you as a human being with your own rights, thoughts and feelings then he wouldn't ever have started any of this in the first place.. let alone be trying to make you believe that you are the abusive one.

he hasn't stopped abusing you.. he's just changed his weapon of choice.

trust your instincts here.. you are starting to question absolutely everything because he's making you believe that your instincts are worthless.. that your own mind cannot be trusted.

Please believe yourself

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Re: Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

Postby trombonejazz » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:06 pm

Thank you for your reply. I feel like I need as much reinforcement from other people that I can get right now. Ever since July, since I called the police, I have been anguishing over how much of this I caused. I have been severely depressed.

I feel like I ruined his life and his career, and he seems to blame me too. He keeps saying that I made him the way he is, and he seems to genuinely believe it. Which makes me wonder how right he is. Did I make him this way? He seems so angry at me all the time now, ever since he was arrested and convicted.

I do think I maybe have engaged in some emotionally abusive behaviors in the past, but for the life of me I can't seem to remember any specific incidences. The only things I clearly remember are the acts of physical abuse against me - which I've come to the conclusion those were definitely physical abuse. I don't question that anymore.

My friends tell me he has brainwashed me - that they saw through him in the beginning and that they don't believe for a second that I have caused any of this. I want to believe them, but I feel so guilty about everything. I can't believe that I am in this situation.

I keep coming to the conclusion that I should leave, at least for the kids sake. But I am really, really scared. I am scared that he would be so upset over it that he would kill me and himself. Just because of all of his suicide threats. But I don't know. Maybe he wouldn't be as upset as I imagine. I did call the local women's shelter - and they are going to set me up with counseling. Which is good because I don't think I have the strength or willpower to do much of anything on my own right now.

But really, thanks for your reply. :)
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Re: Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

Postby Seangel » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:28 am

Hi Trombonejazz,

trombonejazz wrote:Is this really abuse?


This is severe abuse. I'm going to be emphatic here, I'm telling this thinking of your life, and the ones of your 3 kids. Sending all my love and protective vibes to you guys.

You should take care of your life and that of your kids. Next time he looses his temper could be too late for you all. So, really, do have that in mind.

Is whatever relationship you have with him, worth your life or the lives of your kids? Does your relationship fulfills you?

trombonejazz wrote:He says that I have been emotionally abusive towards him the entire relationship, and that my emotional abuse led him to be physically abusive. I am trying to remember things, but everything in our past is so fuzzy to me and I don't really remember. I remember feeling guilty every time he hurt me and truly believing it was my fault at the time, so I do wonder if he's right and I was always emotionally abusive to him?


No, you are NOT the one responsible for his abuses. He IS the sole responsible for his actions, for his lack of anger control, and for his abuses. NOTHING, nothing that you do or say, is justifiable for him to be physically abusive to you. That includes fights, not agreeing with him, even having a lover, if you were to have one, nothing justifies him being violent nor abusive towards you.

I've listened before, from other women who have been severely abused, both physically and verbally from their husbands, that they feel they might be responsible. But they are not. You are not.

You were very brave, and smart to call the police, do take care of your life and the lives of your kids. Usually husbands who have been physically abusive will repeat the pattern unless they take actions to deal with their anger and other issues. Has he gone to therapy? Has he read anything related to being physically abusive? Do be smart for your life, and the lives of your kids. They depend on you.

trombonejazz wrote:Since that time he has been physical a few times - but it happens so rarely, like once or twice a year, that I really have a hard time believing he is actually abusive.


This should NEVER happen, not once, not twice, NEVER, in anyone's life.

Next time you doubt if he's really being abusive remember this:

trombonejazz wrote:When my first baby was a few months old (6 years ago) ... he ended up pulling me out of the house by my hair and locking me out.

In the past he has shoved tables into me, pushed me, put his hands around my neck (without crushing), hit me, grabbed me, etc.

Then a year ago ... He shoved me against a wall, held his hand over my face so hard I thought he was breaking my nose and told me if I ever talked to him like that again, he would crush my face in. He then forced me out of the house and locked the door and refused to let me take the kids. A few minutes later he opened the door and started throwing some of my collectible items out the door at me, one by one, all broken and completely destroyed. Then I heard him go into the garage and start throwing stuff around. He sent me a text message saying to bring back the car and the kids or he'd break the rest of my stuff.
...
Then in May of this year he pushed me, 3 times.
...
In June he slapped me, 3 times.
...
And then in July we were arguing... and he lunged across the room at me, tackled me, and then started to strangle me.
...
he told me he was going to kill himself and locked himself in the bathroom with zip ties and pliers.



Do you see how he's increased his violence towards you? How each time he's more and more violent? Can you predict what might happen next time, to you or your kids, if you take no action?

Do you see the abuse? The threatening text messages? Your life and the ones of your kids being at stake?

Do you remember how you feel?

trombonejazz wrote:I remember being so upset and feeling so ashamed of what had just happened. I remember thinking I had really mad him mad.
...
I always remember feeling so ashamed and like I had caused it.
...
I was trembling and crying.
...
I kept feeling my nose and crying, sure it was broken.
....
That was the first time I was genuinely scared.
...
At this point my oldest son got a chair and unlocked the chain lock, I grabbed all 3 of the kids, ran out to the car and drove around the corner (so he wouldn't see me if he came out).ç
...
He then locked himself in the bathroom and sat in the tub with razor blades and an anatomy book for 2 hrs, telling me he was going to kill himself.
...
The next day I apologized and somehow I decided to stay with him.
...
I remember being nervous and wondering if it was starting again.
...
And I was really upset.
...
I really believed I was going to die.


Do you see how you think of blaming yourself even though it is NOT your fault?

How old was your oldest kid when he unlocked the chain? 5? 6? This is already leaving marks on his emotional self. If he keeps seeing this, he might reproduce it later on in life. He needs you, your kids need you to provide a safe home, one that your husband is really not providing for them or you. Do you see how brave your kiddo was to unlock the door? Do you see how much he's aware?

Do you see how he is manipulating you, coercing you to act the way he wants? He is responsible for his life, not you. He doesn't get to manipulate you with killing himself. If he decides to kill himself, that's he's responsibility.

trombonejazz wrote:I called one of my friends and told her about it. She immediately told me I should leave and she said that her and my other best friend from college had seen verbal and emotional abuse at the very beginning of our relationship and had been waiting to see if it would turn physical.


Do you see how others in your life have already seen the abuse, from long, long ago?

trombonejazz wrote:But last December I took him out to dinner and made him swear to me that he would never be physical with me again. He promised me it never would happen again. I felt good about it.


Sadly, a dinner and a promise won't do it. He needs professional aid to help him deal with all his issues. He needs to be a better father for your kids, and certainly a better husband.

trombonejazz wrote:I thought we were done for sure, but somehow I decided to go back because I just couldn't bare the thought of losing our whole family.


Do you see how brave and smart you've been when calling the police? Do you see that here resides the power to take care of yourself and your kids? Do you see that by staying with him, without anything real change, your kids might be loosing their mom one day, and thus you losing your family?

trombonejazz wrote:He has promised me - again - that he will never be physical again. He says this time he means it because he never, ever wants to go back to jail again.


Again, this won't do. Next time he looses his temper, you and your kids are at risk. Fear of jail won't keep him away from it. He needs help, profesional help; he needs to deal with his issues, before he finishes with you all.

trombonejazz wrote:I just don't know what to do.


Tell him to go to therapy, if he doesn't, staying with him is risky, you don't know when he'll loose his temper again. You, yourself go and talk to a counsellor to help you find ways of action for your specific situation. Do you depend financial on him? How would you feel about telling him to find a place for him, while he's in therapy? Explore your options.

trombonejazz wrote: I don't want him to kill me, or the kids. But the physical incidents don't happen that often? It's like things don't seem that bad in the many months in between each episode.


They are really bad. Things like this should NEVER happen. Not once in life, not once every 2 years, NOT EVER. You, and your kids are at risk. And they only have you to make a wise decision for their lives, your lives.

trombonejazz wrote:And a huge part of me does not believe this is really him, or that he really will hurt me again.


Sadly, it's a part of him. A part he doesn't control. He has the power to work on himself. You have the power to protect your life and the ones of your kids.

trombonejazz wrote:I want to believe him, but I just don't know.
He, himself, needs more than promises, he needs help, help with dealing with whatever issues he has. Your lives shouldn't be at risk because of him.

We support you, you're not alone in this.

Sending you safe, protecting vibes, and wishing you make wise decisions.

Sea
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Re: Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

Postby Seangel » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:40 am

trombonejazz wrote:Ever since July, since I called the police, I have been anguishing over how much of this I caused. I have been severely depressed.


This is how normally victims of abuse feel, but is not their fault. He was the one who beat you, who choked you.

trombonejazz wrote:I feel like I ruined his life and his career, and he seems to blame me too. He keeps saying that I made him the way he is, and he seems to genuinely believe it.


Yes, this is how an abuser would justify themselves, and they will believe it. That's why they need help, profesional help.

trombonejazz wrote:Which makes me wonder how right he is. Did I make him this way? He seems so angry at me all the time now, ever since he was arrested and convicted.


No, you did NOT make him this way. He has issues he needs to work on. If he's angry all the time, he might again loose his temper on you, or on any of your kids who are less strong, and at risk.

See something else, the law and the police already sided with you, supported you and your decision. They saw he was violent and abusive.

trombonejazz wrote:I do think I maybe have engaged in some emotionally abusive behaviors in the past, but for the life of me I can't seem to remember any specific incidences.


Even if you call him names, that doesn't justify his violence. You may need to work on how you solve your problems, but definitely this doesn't justify physical abuse.

trombonejazz wrote:My friends tell me he has brainwashed me - that they saw through him in the beginning and that they don't believe for a second that I have caused any of this. I want to believe them, but I feel so guilty about everything. I can't believe that I am in this situation.


It's a very hard situation, and when you're in the middle of it, you may not see it as bad, as dangerous; however, it is bad, listen to your friends, take care of your family.

trombonejazz wrote:I keep coming to the conclusion that I should leave, at least for the kids sake. But I am really, really scared. I am scared that he would be so upset over it that he would kill me and himself. Just because of all of his suicide threats. But I don't know. Maybe he wouldn't be as upset as I imagine. I did call the local women's shelter - and they are going to set me up with counseling. Which is good because I don't think I have the strength or willpower to do much of anything on my own right now.


WOW this is great. :D Calling for support is very good. I think his suicidal threads are only to manipulate you, not because he doesn't want to live any more. Do make a wise decision for your kids and for you. Even for your husband. Go to a safe place, encourage him to go to therapy. Tell his family and yours to support you through this process.

You do have the strength and the will power, you've already proven so, and you'll do it again, because you're kids lives are at stake.

I'm happy for you and your decision to call a local shelter. I keep sending you safe protective vibes.

Sea
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Re: Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

Postby trombonejazz » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:30 am

Seangel,

I really appreciate your reply so much... wow. It's amazing how you broke it down the way you did. It helps put it in perspective. I think I have been struggling precisely because I see each event as an isolated episode, I assume because they happen so far apart I almost forget about the past ones in the context of each additional event. But overall, you are right that they keep happening, and they keep getting worse.

Since he tried to strangle me in July I feel like I've just been frozen, unable to actually do anything about it or make any decisions. I try not to think about it. If I don't think about it then things don't seem so bad. But if I replay in my mind him choking me, I always get very upset and feel super distressed. And then I think I need to do something/leave. It's like a cycle where I forget, and then remember, and then forget (or not let myself think about), and then remember again and it is just so emotionally draining.

I used to not think I was afraid of him. But I started having nightmares about him killing me last year, and that's when I really started questioning things. I wasn't sure if he would ever hurt me again, but I WAS sure that he would break my things again, because I knew he did it to hurt me and he felt justified in it. And I started wondering, why would I want to be with someone who would intentionally break my favorite, most sentimental things just to hurt me? That doesn't seem like a civil, caring, respectful person to me. I would never do that to him, and if I did, I know there is no way I could get away with it.

And then, he did hurt me again. And now, I find myself feeling startled when he even walks in the door. Or after an argument, I hear him walking down the hall and I find myself feeling tense and wondering if he is going to come in and kill me. It just seems silly, that I am actually feeling afraid/nervous now and those things jump to my mind. I assume it must be because when he choked me I actually thought, for the first time, that he was going to kill me.

You are right about my children. I do think I need to do something, for them. I felt really guilty that they witnessed him locking me out/breaking my things last year. They were 5, 3, and 18 months at the time. Now they are 6, 4, and 2, and my older two have asked questions relating to our problems. My 6 year old has asked his father, "Remember when you locked Mom out of the house?". And my 4 year old asked if his dad was in jail after the police arrested him. I feel a lot of guilt, for them.

My biggest fear is losing the kids if/when I leave. In addition to that, I don't have a job and haven't worked outside the house in over 3 years. My parents live out of town, and I am afraid he would accuse me of kidnapping if I took them there while I looked for a job.

He was court-ordered into a 52 week batterers program. He did start it, but I don't know if he is taking it seriously or not. He tells me that he knew what he was doing when he was choking me out, and that he wouldn't have killed me. He says I made a bigger deal out of it that it was. And he says he was wrong to do it, but that I was wrong for upsetting him, so we are both to blame and I need to work on my problems too. Which I agree with, but I still feel that he is minimizing the fact that I thought he was going to kill me. Everybody else tells me that he could have accidentally killed me - even if he knew what he was doing. Which he most likely did not, because my throat swelled up so badly I could barely swallow for 3 days. If he knew what he was doing I don't think I would have gotten hurt like that.

I don't know if the therapy will help him. I don't know if I should wait it out and see if he changes? I did ask him if he would consider separating for a time while he went to his therapy and I went to mine, and he said absolutely not. So I feel like I have to either make a decision to leave completely (without telling him), or stay and see if things get better.

Anyway, thank you for breaking it down like that. And thank you for being so nice. It seems like so many people are mean about this sort of thing, and in reality this is the hardest thing and choice I've ever faced in my entire life.
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Re: Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

Postby Seangel » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:41 am

Hi Trombonejazz,

trombonejazz wrote:And he says he was wrong to do it, but that I was wrong for upsetting him, so we are both to blame and I need to work on my problems too.


Hey, we are responsible for our own feelings. Him telling you that you angered him... Hmm... not. We are responsible for our feelings, and most of all for how we behave when we feel them. And we can work on it.

trombonejazz wrote:Since he tried to strangle me in July I feel like I've just been frozen, unable to actually do anything about it or make any decisions. I try not to think about it. If I don't think about it then things don't seem so bad. But if I replay in my mind him choking me, I always get very upset and feel super distressed. And then I think I need to do something/leave. It's like a cycle where I forget, and then remember, and then forget (or not let myself think about), and then remember again and it is just so emotionally draining.


What you describe here, I think it's something that many victims of abuse might have gone through, feeling frozen. Maybe in order to keep functioning on daily basis. That's why it's so important to support yourself on others who might have a better view of the situation, and help you see how wrong things have been.

Yes, it's so draining. :/

trombonejazz wrote:And I started wondering, why would I want to be with someone who would intentionally break my favorite, most sentimental things just to hurt me? That doesn't seem like a civil, caring, respectful person to me.


It is not. Not caring, not respectful, not loving.

trombonejazz wrote:You are right about my children. I do think I need to do something, for them. I felt really guilty that they witnessed him locking me out/breaking my things last year. They were 5, 3, and 18 months at the time. Now they are 6, 4, and 2, and my older two have asked questions relating to our problems. My 6 year old has asked his father, "Remember when you locked Mom out of the house?". And my 4 year old asked if his dad was in jail after the police arrested him. I feel a lot of guilt, for them.


Your husband is the one who should feel guilty for doing that to another person. Specially their mom.

trombonejazz wrote:My biggest fear is losing the kids if/when I leave. In addition to that, I don't have a job and haven't worked outside the house in over 3 years. My parents live out of town, and I am afraid he would accuse me of kidnapping if I took them there while I looked for a job.


Get legal advice on this topic. However, there are no reasons for you to loose your kids. You are a good mother to them. You can have a share custody. I wouldn't leave without them. I'm not sure he can accuse you of kidnapping for taking them with you; however, do get legal advice.

trombonejazz wrote:He was court-ordered into a 52 week batterers program. He did start it, but I don't know if he is taking it seriously or not. He tells me that he knew what he was doing when he was choking me out, and that he wouldn't have killed me. He says I made a bigger deal out of it that it was. And he says he was wrong to do it, but that I was wrong for upsetting him, so we are both to blame and I need to work on my problems too. Which I agree with, but I still feel that he is minimizing the fact that I thought he was going to kill me. Everybody else tells me that he could have accidentally killed me - even if he knew what he was doing. Which he most likely did not, because my throat swelled up so badly I could barely swallow for 3 days. If he knew what he was doing I don't think I would have gotten hurt like that.


He's totally minimizing it. The issue is not wether he could control himself to hurt you "enough", the issue is he shouldn't have touched you violently, period. Not a little, not "enough", He shouldn't have choked you at all.

trombonejazz wrote:I don't know if the therapy will help him. I don't know if I should wait it out and see if he changes? I did ask him if he would consider separating for a time while he went to his therapy and I went to mine, and he said absolutely not. So I feel like I have to either make a decision to leave completely (without telling him), or stay and see if things get better.


Then, think this through, and make a decision for your life and the ones of your little ones. It is hard to see the person one loves being that way, but if in the mean time, you don't see he can change, the risk is way too high: Your life, and the ones of your kids.

trombonejazz wrote:... this is the hardest thing and choice I've ever faced in my entire life.


This surely must be. Sorry, you're having to make it. This is what you're facing, don't let it be to late.

Take care, wish you clarity to make good decisions.

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Re: Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

Postby Seangel » Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:47 pm

Hi TromboneJazz,

Today, Nov. 25th, is the International's Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women.

Image

Have you seen this video?

One Billion Rising Short

Last year there was a world wide campaign, and women, and men, and trans, and everyone who felt it, all over the world rose, for you, and for every woman and girl whose been attacked:

Break the chain

You're not alone, we rose for you. 1 out of 3, is too many. There should be none.

Thinking of you and your children.

Sea
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Re: Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

Postby trombonejazz » Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:16 am

Hi Seangel,

I did not know that today was International Elimination of Violence Against Women, thank you for letting me know!

It's amazing how much I didn't know - how unaware I was of domestic violence until this past year. Sometimes I feel so stupid for not having recognized what was going on in my own relationship, years ago.

At least I know now. Although I still wish I wasn't in this situation, at least I am more aware than I used to be.

Thanks again.
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Re: Is this really abuse, and what role have I played in it?

Postby Seangel » Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:47 pm

Hi TJ,

I'm glad you know now.

When we are in the middle of a difficult situation we may not see it. We may be unaware for so many reasons. It's not uncommon. We might be blind because we think of the person we love, because we don't see it happen daily, because we don't see how each time is stronger, because we want to keep a home, because we think it will magically change.

Again, I'm glad you are aware now, keep wishing you a lot of wisdom for your decisions.

Sea
Taking myself some time away from PF. Sea (Dec, 2016)
Seangel
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