Quiet corner of PF

^ xdude I find it a fascinating subject. I have been doing some of my own thinking on it, and reading though not sure how accurate the source is, just peoples opinions, but usually based on experience.

I was accused of being manipulative from when I was a child and I know then it was not intentional. Over time I have tried to observe myself and began to see it or acknowledge it. On my part I will say it occurs naturally. I dont have to think about it. I think the environment I grew up in felt very unsafe to me and I had to find any means to get my needs met. Whatever worked, for basic survival. I guess this worked. Over time with practice it got more embedded and maybe other healthier ways of comunucating or interacting did not have as much chance to develop. So that is my personal story. I want to say I dont use it for "evil" or sadistic purposes. Just to meet my own basic needs. And whenever I am aware or conscious of things I choose the healthier or "good" route to take in a situation. Exceptions might be if I am under a great deal of stress. Desperate times desperate measures they say.

I cant say how it is for others. I am guessing there is a spectrum. An aspd might intentionally deceive and manipulate to an extreme of causing a great amount of harm to others. Conscience is a mitigating factor no doubt in how much one abuses this. I would say BPD has the most conscience of the cluster b and malignant NPD the least but just an opinion.

So as for him I am still figuring him out. He has claimed all along he is an "empath." I have no idea if he really believes it or is playing on my emotions. Its like there are two extreme possibilities. 1. He is a well meaning sensitive empath and I am being irrationally paranoid. Or 2. He is running a con on me and manipulating me deliberately and my own sensitivity is making me easily mamipulated.

Two extreme versions of events and either can be true. Maybe its obvious to others on the outside but its not obvious to me. I am leaning towards the latter now (that hes conning me).

ElephantEyes wrote:I cant say how it is for others. I am guessing there is a spectrum. An aspd might intentionally deceive and manipulate to an extreme of causing a great amount of harm to others. Conscience is a mitigating factor no doubt in how much one abuses this. I would say BPD has the most conscience of the cluster b and malignant NPD the least but just an opinion.

Yes, makes sense. There is another book about sociopathy. The author covers a lot, but in the end her key point is that it all comes down to conscience. She makes a related point too that without it, there is no motivation to develop a conscience. For those who essentially utterly lack conscience, it's like having a 'super power', and who'd want to give up what feels like a powerful advantage? She doesn't write it, but I will... if you are dealing with someone who is essentially AsPD on the spectrum, odds are he won't ever tell you this, or at least not so long as he is pursuing what he wants.

I agree that (from my experiences), people with BPD do have a strong sense of conscience, maybe too strong, but their relationships can still go completely off the rails in trying to get their own needs met.

From a certain point of view then, it only matters so much how conscious he is of his motives. What definitely matters is how you are affected by his actions. I can tell you that in retrospect I wish I had been more focused on my ex's actions, and less on her motives. I kept trying to look for the best intentions, while overlooking what was right in front of my face. In the end the actions still wore me down regardless of her reasons.

^ xdude You make a good point. He could have the best intentions but more important is what I feel about it.

Honestly all I know is I am confused. I am definitely having anxiety issues but I dont know if thats just me or he is causing them.

I am starting to wonder if I have been to hard on him. If I am cluster B I was reading that cluster B women are hard on men, they let no good deed go unpunished. What if he is just trying to help me and has good intentions but I am being difficult for no reason. That is the kind of thing I wonder.

Now he is offering me his help in an area I actually do need help in and he says he has the knowledge and skills to do that. And he said my safety is a concern, ie. if he doesnt help me with this I am in danger. So now Im awake and cant sleep worrying about this thing he warned me about. Aware of how vulnerable I am and dont have any one else so eager to help me with this. So its easy to want to hang on to him as the person who can save me from this danger he warned me about.

But I also overthink that its a ploy he is using to get me to attach to him.

Is he a nice helpful guy or an abusive boyfriend?

I have no idea but now Im anxious about this thing and want to accept his help. And I also wonder if I have been unfair this whole time.

Hey EE,

Some of the world's worst deeds have been done under the guise of 'I am doing this for others', but then I am not a big believer in 'pure' altruism. I also don't think there is anything wrong with wanting something back from a relationship either, or whatever it is we pursue for 'altruistic' reasons. For some even a thanks is a big motivator, and nothing wrong with that.

Things go very wrong when someone honestly has convinced themselves, "I just want help her (or him)" and, they are utterly oblivious to what they want in return; maybe not as blatantly wrong as they do when the mindset is "I just want to exploit her (or him), what a fool", but the self dishonesty is eventually going to bubble to the surface. More like -

I just want to help her (or him), and my real goal that I won't admit to myself is they are so appreciative they will be thankful forever, never leave/betray me, and turn into my ideal [fill in the blank] ... slave? sounding board? provider? what?

Both may be true. He may both really believe he wants to help you, and really also have his own personal goals, which may or may not align with yours.

-

I internally chuckled at no good deed goes unpunished. LOL, lots of truth in that. Everyone wants assurances, but yes, I do think for cluster B types, that deep seated awareness of primal nature means they are especially likely to test, and then test more, will you betray me?

-

Again understand why you are having mixed feelings. It can be a huge ego boost to be pursued by someone with a cluster B personality. Over the top The suck side is the devaluation that is equally if not more intense when it comes to that point.

^xdude you do a good job at being nonjudgmental while giving food for thought. Its quite impressive really. Not an easy thing to do.

I didnt mean to abandon this thread but got distracted in the aspd forum where we got to discussing it. For reference: antisocial-personality/topic202755.html

I got raked over the coals some. Accused of trolling and sent Reaper into murderous rage. I'm not trolling and I think I know why Reaper feels that way. Also I am a contrarion type person ....so I argue the opposite of what Im accused of so.... thats what happened. I still dont know whats true. I think Pavlovs theory is best though.

Yes...Im trying to disengage. I am touched people seem concerned and are trying to help me. Even if its a rough approach. It still helps and Im grateful for it.

So Reaper said Im being a weak victim, but I dont think thats the case. This guy has invaded my boundaries and caused some anxiety but otherwise hasnt hurt me yet, or even really threatened to. Not blatantly anyways, or just in anger. I guess he threatened to expose me but what could he do? Make a website slandering me? I think thats illegal anyways.

So he hasnt disrupted my life that much yet and if I really had the willpower too I could put an end to this most likely. Well he would probably continue to stalk me for a long time. By that I mean attempting to get in contact with me or get my attention, probably contact my family, etc.

So in a way, yes, I am being forced to interact with him. Hes forcing it and I dont have much choice. Hes not making it easy for me to get away in other words. He will make it as hard as possible for me too.

Does that make me a weak victim? I think Im aware of the dangers of the situation. Im not romanticizing it or glorifying it as some accused. Its not fair to accuse me of that anyways as Hollywood romanticizes stalking and has for years. Movies like Twilight, Beauty and the Beast, etc. where disturbing and abusive or controlling stuff is portrayed as sweet and romantic.

I think my perspective has actually been pretty down to earth compared to what it could be. This guy is creepy and I dont want him. Ive said that. I may have days I feel more compassionate or forgiving. That is not a bad way to be. Its not "weak" to be forgiving. Its actually a sign of strength and character, I would argue.

I do have to put in effort to maintain a boundary with him and demand respectful treatment

I wish people understood I am not consenting to this interaction. Each time I try to end our communication he reminds me I have no choice, that he is never leaving me. That I am stuck with him. Again just last night he said it. I think he truly believes that and intends it to be so.

Yesterday he was being extremely obnoxious. I ended things. I told him all the reasons it wont work out. I called him an abusive asshole and told him to ###$ off. That was the last I texted him.

He has texted me nonstop since then. Blaming everything on me. Saying I cant handle a real man etc. Said Im a fraud and I conned him. Said I used him and lied. Said he was going to give me $1000s worth of stuff and I messed up. Then he apologized and said he loves me. Last thing he said is he is moving to my town to be my neighbor and he loves me and will still be with me.

I dont know. I think hes trying to torment me. I told him exactly what I think of him though. He is extremely disturbed.

Hey EE,

Just some related thoughts -

I think AsPD types see some evolutionary truths about human motives with clarity, and actually so do BPD types at times, except the later are tormented by fear of betrayal (how can I trust you when I can see your primal self-interested side), while the former embrace and obsess over how deep does the rabbit hole of human evil go. Some AsPD types may even consciously plan to betray first, because they are so sure if they don't, the other will. Okay, that was an extreme over simplification, but it's one way I mentally sort the two types.

Some other influences turned me on to a different way of approaching life. It is 'smart' to be happy, and the only one who loses out when we aren't is ourselves. Happy doesn't necessarily mean a persistent party, just that our overall view and perception is working towards feeling complete, fulfilled, spending more time enjoying and less miserable.

There is this saying, 'Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?' Sometimes they are at odds. Yes, for some people being right makes them happy, or so they say, but then if what would make you happy is mutually beneficial relationships with others (or someone special), sometimes being right comes at a cost that is counter productive.

It seems he has wakened something within you, and I don't think there is anything essentially wrong with wanting to live a romanticized life, or even a life where the roles are unusual, if it would make you happy. It's smart to choose to be happy.

I think, and could be wrong, but my thought is that while he has stirred some primal emotions, that you also have expressed a lot of ambivalence too, understandable by the way. When we don't yet know what would make us happy, then the next best thing we can do is step back, stop, work on sorting that out. We don't need to sort it all out either, but until we sort out the biggest stumbling blocks to our own happiness, there is no point focusing on the pebbles when there are boulders to be cleared.

--

As for his relentless pursuit... you no doubt know and have written, such a broken personality is not capable of a mutually beneficial (aka happy) relationship. It's an amazing ego boost to be so desperately wanted by someone, so hard to let go, but being drowned in another person's wants/needs is still just being drowned.

Hey xdude. Happy New Year.

All I know now is that Im repelled by him completely. Maybe this is me splitting, or its a normal reaction, but now he is just an ugly person to me. He acted in a very ugly way. He has been trying to get ahold of me nonstop. I havent even read his last 20 texts or the email. I know its just him making excuses for his behavior.

I am just repulsed. He acted like such an abusive asshole and I had been kind and patient with him despite it. I think I have shown a lot of class and dignity dealing with this, but he is trying hard as he can to pull me into a mud pit to fight with him.

Hes just an ugly person. In the past my relationships cant continue once Ive crossed this threshhold and cant see any positives anymore. Im not attracted to ugliness in people. Im attracted to positives like kindness and intelligence and good character and patience and forgiveness.

Now he has purchased some of the services I sell so I am forced to interact with him.