Quiet corner of PF

xdude wrote:I can relate to the draw. My ex and I related because of our common issues, though no surprise, they also ended up being what pushed us away.

I think you mentioned this earlier in the thread, but yea, you get to speak in code. That communicating below the level of what is said to how it was said, why it was said, timing, the deeper meaning. It all feels a lot more connected than day to day speak.

Honestly I couldn't tell you if meeting my ex was the worst thing I ever did, or one of the best choices. I learned a lot and for a time it was the best experience of my life, but I was hurt a lot too. She often played the triangulation games, and that struck right at the heart of my own insecurities. I can relate to the crazy making that drove me to engage in, until... over time I just became numb, which she took as I don't care (some truth in that), and ramped up those games until that didn't work either. Did I win? Who knows. Win what?

But I get why you are finding it hard to stop. Do you live life feeling numb, or awake, maybe a kindered personality on some level, even if you know it's going to lead to pain and misery.

The relationship choice isn't what is worrisome though. It's that you've seen evidence of a violent/abusive nature, and while it's one thing to be involved with someone who has a PD (nothing essentially wrong with that, people with PDs are still just people and a relationship can work for some), it's that you've written he may be violent that is worrisome.

I didnt have a chance to before but now I can try to reply in more depth.

Yes there is a draw. I think when two cluster Bs find each other something happens. You can describe it as chemistry or sparks. You know it if you felt it.

It is a chance to learn something I think. If you are experiencing that draw its probably why. Something happening subconsciously and the intuition this person has some answer or solution to something you are kind of thinking about but also trying to avoid. The other person promises to be a catalyst but the thing they upturn is more often unpleasant. That is why we buried it, its unpleasant. But it still weighs on us much as we try to avoid it.

So its an ambivalent attraction.

I have more to say but might have to make another post.

Something I have noted is so much of our interaction is high context. That is a few words or hints can communicate something greater. A lot is unsaid but alluded to. A non might say "What? Can you explain that? I am not sure I understand?"

But he and I understand and that is part of the draw. To be able to speak in code and know the other is getting it though they may not admit it in so many words.

I think you mentioned this earlier in the thread, but yea, you get to speak in code. That communicating below the level of what is said to how it was said, why it was said, timing, the deeper meaning. It all feels a lot more connected than day to day speak.

I thought a lot about this and find it interesting as a topic. I think this was one of the core differences between my non and Cluster B relationships. I enjoy this game of "speaking in code" with people and find myself confused when someone lays all their cards on table. A part of me does crave laying them, though, I need what-you-see-is-what-you-get-people in my life too (with them feeling of safety comes along) and I did try this with my cluster B ex at one point but realized it's something that will never happen.
Just wanted to say how you mentioning this got me thinking about it a lot.

Do you both think this solely relates to people diagnosed with cluster B or is it just a personality trait, a division between those who (in lack of a better term -) let you inside their mind and then those who never fully do?

I really like when others are laying their cards out. Part of why I recommended that youtube channel I did. He does. I have trouble doing it myself but I try. Therapy is hard for me because I dont open up. Its a challenge to be open for me even here anonymously.

Speaking in code can be nice because it doesnt have the pressure. Pressure can be ok when its taking someone to catharsis. Its a sensitive person who knows when to push and when to let up.

These are just passing thoughts. Not well developed. I am kind of sapped at the moment.

Looking forward to xdude's thoughts though.

Just some not well formed thoughts in reply -

Cluster B types have strong triggers, but triggers go both ways. They can both build up a cluster B type, or trigger a deep seated pain point. Actually that's true more generally. Cluster B types can be very good at knowing what to say, and what not to say, or how to say it. That can build up anyone's ego and leave them with lowered defenses. Delivery, timing, word choices, etc. I am guessing, but EE's stalker does actually seem to have some sense of what she wanted to hear (and how to say it), hence the attraction. Talking in code for two cluster B types is about avoiding each other's land mines, watering the garden of ego builders, until later (but more on that below).

The filter-less, to the point way of speaking, or just generic social nice way of speaking, for the cluster B type, is very safe in a way. Nothing gets strongly triggered (if it starts out early on) because -

In the filter-less case, there is never any strong build up of ego. Yea yea, you're a [expletive], I get it. I don't care, so either it's amusing, or a bugger off reaction works, but there is no emotional investment so, whatever.

In the socially polite case, there is never any strong build up of ego, nor is there necessarily any strong triggering conversation. Yea yea, you're normal, I get it. You are polite, but there is never going to be a conversation of any depth beyond social niceties.

Where things go wrong, especially for two cluster B types that 'connect', and this is just my opinion, is that while the code speak does start out with build you up, avoid your triggers, and that is all great until... eventually there are going to be ego hurts, and for cluster b types, those slights are very hard to let go of. Give it time, and it goes downhill until both have their defenses up, and go for the throat. This is not the same as filter-less speak. This is go for the kill speak. Funny thing is, for cluster b types that can still feel like a connection, like they get each other, but oh the pain adds up. Whoever it is that stops caring first "wins".

xdude wrote:Just some not well formed thoughts in reply -

Cluster B types have strong triggers, but triggers go both ways. They can both build up a cluster B type, or trigger a deep seated pain point. Actually that's true more generally. Cluster B types can be very good at knowing what to say, and what not to say, or how to say it. That can build up anyone's ego and leave them with lowered defenses. Delivery, timing, word choices, etc. I am guessing, but EE's stalker does actually seem to have some sense of what she wanted to hear (and how to say it), hence the attraction. Talking in code for two cluster B types is about avoiding each other's land mines, watering the garden of ego builders, until later (but more on that below).

The filter-less, to the point way of speaking, or just generic social nice way of speaking, for the cluster B type, is very safe in a way. Nothing gets strongly triggered (if it starts out early on) because -

In the filter-less case, there is never any strong build up of ego. Yea yea, you're a [expletive], I get it. I don't care, so either it's amusing, or a bugger off reaction works, but there is no emotional investment so, whatever.

In the socially polite case, there is never any strong build up of ego, nor is there necessarily any strong triggering conversation. Yea yea, you're normal, I get it. You are polite, but there is never going to be a conversation of any depth beyond social niceties.

Where things go wrong, especially for two cluster B types that 'connect', and this is just my opinion, is that while the code speak does start out with build you up, avoid your triggers, and that is all great until... eventually there are going to be ego hurts, and for cluster b types, those slights are very hard to let go of. Give it time, and it goes downhill until both have their defenses up, and go for the throat. This is not the same as filter-less speak. This is go for the kill speak. Funny thing is, for cluster b types that can still feel like a connection, like they get each other, but oh the pain adds up. Whoever it is that stops caring first "wins".

Brilliant post xdude. You explained it perfectly.

This is exactly how most of my relationships have devolved. It becomes a competition as to who can cut deeper. I am normally the verbal abuser. I seem to have a "talent" in reading vulnerabilities. They usually are more physical though I have had the verbal as well. The verbal hurts worse! Much worse.

Once things start heading that direction its very hard to turn it around. Its equally hard to walk away too for some reason. Things just get messier and uglier for years.

How to not do this? I dont think I can have healthy relationship long as this is part of my personality.

This is a very interesting line of thought. I am hoping this is where this thread can lead. It is making for some excellent food for thought for me anyways. Thank you for the input so far. It is really helping and I hope it might be helping others as well.

I just wanted to record some other ideas. I found a great book if anyone is interested in the psychology of stalking. Its called The Psychology of Stalking: Clinical and Forensic Perspectives by Meloy. I have just been reading some excerpts on google books. Fascinating stuff.

He seems to fit very well the love obsession archetype like the guy in the movie Taxi Driver. He seems to think we have a spiritual relationship and he needs to rescue me from my depravity. Assuming he has been truthful that is. A lot of it is about oedipal stuff, madonna/whore complex, rescuing, idealizing. Kind of Freudian and I know a lot of people dont like Freud but I found it seemed to make sense. And now I can see how this has happened, doesnt seem like such a mystery any more.

That said I dont think he is foolish for doing this. I think he has strong emotions and has a void in his life. Along with an unhappy childhood, abuse etc., probably some psychological conflicts. I probably just happen to fit best into this person he perceives could resolve or fill those needs or voids. It was probably coincidence he found me and I just happened to strike a few right notes and then things took off.

And then he does seem to have a high level of emotional intelligence and he knew how to soften me as xdude said.

It could end up being a very poignant love story. Depending on how it ends of course, which is hard to predict for me.

I am guessing, so as with all guesses...

But yes, I guess too that he really strongly believes what he says. That's the thing about idolization, it requires filling in a lot of who the idolized one really is, with imagination, but behind that are very real strong beliefs (i.e, what is imagined is really believed).

You already know how that goes long term though. Fireworks followed by fires.

^ You are right xdude.

He said something I didnt like yesterday and now I am repelled again. I told him to stop texting me and he is stalking and harassing me and I am calling the police and he is going to jail.

He just laughed and proceeded to text me through the night. Saying he will spank my ass and tie me to the bed.

He came across as more aspd than bpd but that just my opinion.

I am serious. I dont want him. I had a realization its not healthy and wont ever be and now I dont like how I am feeling about it.

I made a false threat though because I wont call the police. I couldnt say anything genuinely mean either. My conscience would eat at me if I did either of those things.

He keeps talking about tieing me up for some reason. Its freaking me out. He knows it but keeps saying it. Now I wouldnt even trust being alone with him. He seems obsessed with tieing me up.

I suppose he could just be probing. If he is a BPD male he is aware on some level that being tied up is a common BDSM fantasy. My HPD ex was very into the restraint fantasies, spanking, and a few other things, sort of.

I write sort of, because of the ambiguous cluster B thinking. Last time I visited her, the restraints were still there, but then I was just too aware of her changes in personality to use them. She was even critical because I just wouldn't anymore (yea, I knew spanking and tying her up didn't really hurt her, but I also knew something else)... I knew she was pushing me to do something that another part of her fragmented personality was building up resentment over. That's the thing about cluster B personalities, we struggle with our own conflicts, because we also know, that our conflicts means others are conflicted too, and so how can I trust you not to betray me? A core belief that is at the very heart of BPD (and I suspect the other cluster B types). A person with a cluster B personality may push others to do things that they sort of want, but they also want to know, will you betray/hurt me? Think of it as a preemptive strike.

BTW, BDSM play is fine, if it works for a couple, so no judgment, just that there may be more at play than what you are hearing, including that he may not even be into it, but is trying to find something that gets your attention at a primal level (cause primal/emotional is what works).

Either way, real AsPD or BPD who is probing, I suspect you know how it is going to end with him.

Again, I dislike bursting anyone's bubble of hope, but EE, if you are not yet in a good place yourself, and guessing based on what you've written here... it seems like you've gone into isolation mode for a while, and are starting to feel more grounded, but also understandably, missing that intense connection. It takes a long time to recover from a cluster B relationship, and get back to that sense of peace.

^ Oh yes I agree xdude. Cluster b relationships seem intrinsically woven with bdsm dynamics. I have experimented a little and can enjoy some of it. The restraint bondage thing though freaks me out to an irrational phobic degree. Immediate panic attack just to think about it. Not a prude just that idea is one of my phobias.

Its interesting what you say that its a test of sorts. I fear the power someone would have over me if I were that helpless. My mind can only go to bad scenarios. I hate not feeling in control. Giving power over to someone and being dominated. Being tied up is the ultimate act of submission. I think I want to be able to trust someone enough to be in that situation. There is a suppressed interest in it but in reality I cant imagine ever trusting someone enough. Not the kind of people I usually date anyways. Im sure theres some psychoanalytic reason for all this.

Well he kept at it texting me until I got over my issue. I can see it with more distance now. I was triggered but understandably so. Not irrational. Part of me thinks he did it on purpose. He admitted he enjoys when I rage at him because it means I "love" him in his pov.

You mentioned that in another thread xdude, the jealousy thread, and I know I do it too at times so I can see through the game. I can still react to it though.

I cant figure him out. Sometimes I think hes doing some advanced level Machiavellian manipulation on me. Like a psychopath might. Yet he claims to be this very emotional sensitive guy. That could be a ruse though.

I am obviously getting pulled in and honestly it feels out of control to me. I am doing all I can to stay grounded though. He is better at this though I think. He has no fear no shame apparently. I thought threatening to call the police would scare him but no. I think he knew it was a bluff.

Hey EE,

Yes, no way to know with 100% certainty how consciously aware he is (or not), of what he is saying and why.

I read a book semi recently on persuasion techniques because I am curious, do highly manipulative (or I guess we could say 'persuasive') people know what they are doing? Of course there is no answer. I suppose some are just inherently good at it, others learn it, and a mix in the middle, but the overriding point made in the book is it is we make up our minds first, often for emotional reasons, and rationalize our decisions second. That is sort of a 'duh', except when you read that some people practice this in purpose, and some of the techniques used, it's an eye opener too. Most persuasion techniques leverage this blind spot we all have to some degree.

He does seem to know, perhaps unconsciously, that poking at your emotional triggers works. That's nothing to be ashamed of because it works on all of us. Even if we know better, know we are being consciously manipulated, it still works to some degree. It wakes us up, and can leave us in a state where we are thinking about what was said/done for hours (or days), and all along, we are also thinking about the person that prodded us. When that goes on for too long, it becomes habit, thinking of that person. He also seems to know he has to mix in some emotionally charged positives, so again, more time spent thinking of the person.

Anyway no idea how conscious he is of what he says/does, but as time goes on it may matter less what he says, so long as you remain emotionally involved (yes, even if you are left with negative emotions for a time). Not healthy, but it's understandable why the longer this goes on, the harder it is to let it go.