RULES -Please read before posting

If you would like to post on this forum, please follow these rules:

Do not post to a member who has a paraphilia which could motivate them to do something illegal (including paraphilias such as pedophilia, hebephilia, a rape paraphilia/fetish, zoophilia, necrophilia etc.) and try to convince them that their sexual arousal is normal, not harmful, or that they should simply accept it. The site will not allow this behaviour due to the possible consequences of members acting on their paraphilia urges, and because members have said that they have felt triggered here in the past.

Do not use avatars that may trigger someone who has paraphilia urges that might motivate them to do something illegal. This includes avatars depicting children, violence, blood and avatars suggesting that such a paraphilia should simply be embraced. Do not post pictures or videos of children.

Do not post links to articles, sites or books that suggest sex with adults or humans is not harmful to children or animals. Any links to material that discusses paraphilias that you would like to post should be approved by a moderator first.

We don't want to stop people from talking about their thoughts and feelings, but possibly triggering ideas will have to be expressed in someone's own thread, with a *might trigger* warning in the title.

Hi Jasmin,

Good to see the rules formulated, but I have a question. In the Triggers thread you said:

jasmin wrote:we should limit talk of how certain thoughts are natural (I'm talking about stuff like sexual attraction to kids or animals or rape/violent fetishes where the person is struggling with their urges) to certain threads only.

But here you say:

jasmin wrote:Do not post to a member who has a paraphilia ... and try to convince them that their sexual arousal is normal, not harmful, or that they should simply accept it.

And then (also here) you say:

jasmin wrote:We don't want to stop people from talking about their thoughts and feelings, but possibly triggering ideas will have to be expressed in someone's own thread, with a *might trigger* warning in the title.

Taken altogether, I find these quotes to be a mixed message. Unless the second quote is assumed to be saying '...unless it's in one of those dedicated threads with a trigger warning'?

Yah, people can talk about their opinions and feelings, even if they're controversial, but not in someone else's thread. They can start a thread of their own and discuss the issue. And if they want to post links they have to let a mod approve them first, so we can run them by the site's owner.

Well, I don't much like it but then a tiny but devious thought in the back of my head tells me that not everybody like the same things, so hey, I tolerate and accept your lack of acceptance.

This though: "Any links to material that discusses paraphilias that you would like to post should be approved by a moderator first."
At least I think you can agree that it sounds tedious.

Yah, a bit tedious, but we have to be careful lol

Do not post to a member who has a paraphilia...to convince them that their sexual arousal is normal, not harmful, or that they should simply accept it.

Please explain the thought behind this.

How is what is or isn't the norm of any subject worth censoring? Unless you want to only allow what YOU (or whoever made the rule) believe to be normal to be classified as 'normal' on this site. In that case somebody out there is intolerant of some peoples' opinions and clearly shouldn't be in charge of making such decisions on a site that welcomes all people that inevitably bring their various opinions. Opinions are not wrong or right they are simply a person's perception of something and as such no person should have any authority on deeming one groups' opinion worthy of being heard above another groups'. To do otherwise is an arrogant abuse of power. Let them say it is normal because it really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

I do not believe simply having a paraphilia is harmful to a person e.g. simply being a paedophile does not automatically cause me harm. I am aware I have free will to act in a way I choose as well as abstain from activities that I choose. Attraction does not command action or impair thought and so does not deserve to be labelled harmful. This is why the reason behind censoring any discussion that claims paraphilias are NOT harmful is nothing more than a rationalisation for an unjustified course of action.

I do not believe someone not accepting what they are will do them any good. Have you ever heard of acceptance before moving forward? Or the final stage in grief being acceptance? How can you honestly imply that self-acceptance or any speech in favour of self-acceptance could lead to anybody acting out their feelings? That is pure speculation without facts! Again that is nothing but someone's rationalisation of censoring the truth that: simply having a paraphilia does nothing harmful to an individual e.g. the 'symptom' of paedophilia is an attraction to pre-pubescent children. That alone doesn't cause malaise or impairment of an ability to reason or removal of guilt.

As for people feeling triggered by such things I think that it is unfortunate for those people affected however censoring important and perhaps life-changing messages such as self-acceptance and the fact that life with a paraphilia can be every bit as independently manageable as life without one for people with a paraphilia rather than the constant message of 'YOU NEED HELP!!!' is potentially devastating to people that already are flooded with unspoken messages of hatred and alienation from society. What is wrong with accepting what you are and tailoring your social life and working environment to better suit your personality and preferences? Absolutely nothing that's what!

This site is a great place filled with many voices of reason that are heard by far too few people. Please don't let intolerance, arrogance or simply a bad move with good intentions limit the amount of help this site can offer.

p.s. Sorry to ‘shoot the messenger’ if that‘s what I‘ve done.

p.p.s:

If you would like to post on this forum, please follow these rules:

Yah, people can talk about their opinions and feelings, even if they're controversial, but not in someone else's thread. They can start a thread of their own and discuss the issue.

Haven't you just contradicted the whole point of having rules for the whole forum by saying they don't count if we make our own thread? And if someone wants to post something 'controversial' yet backed up by facts to counter the consensus of a thread that is already well underway why make it unnecessarily tedious by forcing them to make a whole new thread just to make one post? Why can't they just put 'WARNING TRIGGERING' at the top and leave it in the same thread? That way the post won't be taken out of context and is more likely to be understood for the message it is meant to convey.

Although I agree with much of what you say, Flipant, I think that it's only fair a forum site (privately owned and set up) has rules as it sees fit. The rules imposed under the thread have been imposed because some people have been 'triggered' by the whole normal/natural debate. Now, I respect that one can argue 'well, they should chill out and not be triggered by such messages, as it would be for their benefit if they realised x, y and z', but the point is they were triggered so it's right that the mods try and deal with this.

Of course, how they deal with it can be questioned theoretically (though in practice, it's not our site, ergo not a democracy). Personally, though, and even though my opinion on the whole normal/natural topic is very different to that of Jasmin, I think the solution is a fair one. People who want to discuss normality, naturalness or any other theoretical topic or their feelings related to these things can still do so, in separate threads clearly marked as potential triggers. I think this is both very fair and slightly unfair - very fair because it means you can discuss away without fear of triggering anyone and without hijacking somebody's thread, and slightly unfair because I think a paedophile or necrophile coming to this site for the first time and in distress may benefit from the message that he/she might be perfectly normal (up for debate of course, but not here).

Anyway, partly to set an example but also because I'm philosophically minded, I'm going to start a thread along these lines (clearly marked as potential trigger, of course).

Flipant wrote:

If you would like to post on this forum, please follow these rules:

Yah, people can talk about their opinions and feelings, even if they're controversial, but not in someone else's thread. They can start a thread of their own and discuss the issue.

Haven't you just contradicted the whole point of having rules for the whole forum by saying they don't count if we make our own thread? And if someone wants to post something 'controversial' yet backed up by facts to counter the consensus of a thread that is already well underway why make it unnecessarily tedious by forcing them to make a whole new thread just to make one post? Why can't they just put 'WARNING TRIGGERING' at the top and leave it in the same thread? That way the post won't be taken out of context and is more likely to be understood for the message it is meant to convey.

No, I haven't contradicted anything. People are not allowed to trigger other posters on the board, that's why they need to keep certain things separate from someone else's thread. That's the point of having the rules.

To answer the rest of your post in a way that will hopefully help you and others understand, there's a difference between telling someone that their urges will be with them forever and telling them that having the urges is perfectly fine.
I know it's a delicate situation. People need emotional validation for who they are, no matter what they are like, and they deserve it if they haven't hurt anyone. In that sense, telling someone that it's "ok" to have these thoughts, that they don't make them a bad person is good and probably helpful. But as a poster explained (Musicman I think), some pedophiles who come looking for support are constantly struggling with thoughts that the kids actually like doing sexual things with adults, that they enjoyed what happened to them in child pornography, that it wouldn't harm them to have sex with an adult. In this case, telling a pedophile that his/her thoughts are ok would cause harm because they're already struggling to stay afloat and keep their sanity. Someone who is struggling is also struggling with whether or not acting on their urges would cause any harm, not just with what's inside their head.
It's true that sexual urges don't take away someone's empathy or sense of right and wrong, I completely agree with you, but it doesn't mean that they don't make people confused and much more vulnerable to doing something wrong or having moments when they almost wish they could do it.
We've actually had people saying that sex with adults isn't harmful for kids and they posted links to sites that talked about that too, that's why we have to be vigilant.
If you have any more questions/issues, feel free to tell me about them.

Alevi wrote:Well, I don't much like it but then a tiny but devious thought in the back of my head tells me that not everybody like the same things, so hey, I tolerate and accept your lack of acceptance.

What doesn't kill us makes us stronger - or just nuts.

Seriously though, I like that. I too am willing to accept that others are lacking acceptance, but I also believe there's more to the issue here. An old avatar of mine maybe triggered someone here - and while I had no intentions of doing so, I'm glad I was contacted about it and was able to handle the issue properly with those running the site. While I still miss my avatar, I'm willing to respect the rules and regulations of the runners of this site and hope these R&R's can help everyone to become a little more open-minded than before.

I see that issue with my avatar and these rules as the moderators and the owner(s) of the site striving to be mindful of everyone's limits here and to protect those that may be more vulnerable to "triggers." These "trigger-vulnerable" people may benefit from having a heightened choice to not only choose to read things on here, but to read things that may "trigger" these readers or not.

After all, we can still discuss the normal/natural stuff, but in specified threads - one of which GinaSmith has already begun. I plan on doing my talkin' on that issue there, and believe I can do so happily and comfortably. Even though I generally hold people accountable for their own actions, regardless of "triggers", I can respect these rules and continue to express myself freely in the "ghettos of the triggers." No offense intended by this last part - I just thought it was a witty and comical away to describe the situation! Please don't attack me...

However, I hope newcomers won't be too turned away by the sometimes blaring "******TRIGGER******" warnings in certain thread titles, as I too believe the views in the normal/natural topics could be highly beneficial to people with paraphilia.

Just to make things clear. The triggers I am talking about are not about making someone feel sad, they're about almost putting someone in a state of mind where they'll have a relapse and watch child pornography or be in danger of abusing somebody.