Need Some Advice-Working With Children *May trigger*

GinaSmith wrote:

Divinorum wrote:I find the notion of sexual abuse having any positive consequences extremely hard to swallow.

So do I, to be perfectly honest. But I think it's important we be careful not to assume how we feel about something being a fact alters its truth status. (Not that I'm saying you'd do this, Divinorum.)

I perfectly well understand how it could be difficult to accept the counterintuitive idea that abuse can somehow be positive.

To better understand how Rind et al came to this conclusion, we must look at how the meta-analysis was conducted. Rind et al did not define "child sexual abuse" themselves. In their analysis of the 59 studies involving over 36,000 individuals, what constituted CSA was left up to the original authors. In some of the studies, for example, relationships were called CSA on the basis that the parties involved were more than five years in age apart, regardless of the degree of willingness on the part of the younger person.

If one were to analyze further the data, it turns out that the relationships in which the parties were mutually willing were the most positive, while the minority with negative outcomes involved degrees of force or coercion. Pretty commonsensical actually, if you think about it.

Shrink Rap, could you perhaps give an example of an interaction that was considered positive for those of us who haven't read the study? As I'm sure you can understand, someone who is not familiar with the research could find the claim that a child benefits from sexual abuse highly offensive.

If however you're saying that a hug or a kiss between a 12-year-old and a 7-year-old was found to be a positive experience, then I think many could agree with you.

But without knowing to what you're referring, it's easy to imagine you are saying that child rape is a neutral or positive experience.

Platypus wrote:As I'm sure you can understand, someone who is not familiar with the research could find the claim that a child benefits from sexual abuse highly offensive.

This could certainly ruffle some feathers. On the other hand, if it eventually emerges that it's not the (non-violent, 'consensual') sexual acts themselves that cause the damage but the way people are encouraged to think about the acts after the fact, then this is something we (as a society) need to know.

I think this would be of great value to those who have suffered (directly or indirectly), as surely it can only enhance efficacy of therapy if you know what's causing the damage.

That said, there will be some people here who have experienced violent rape as children, and I'm sure we'll be sensitive about the issue.

Platypus wrote:Shrink Rap, could you perhaps give an example of an interaction that was considered positive for those of us who haven't read the study? As I'm sure you can understand, someone who is not familiar with the research could find the claim that a child benefits from sexual abuse highly offensive.

If however you're saying that a hug or a kiss between a 12-year-old and a 7-year-old was found to be a positive experience, then I think many could agree with you.

But without knowing to what you're referring, it's easy to imagine you are saying that child rape is a neutral or positive experience.

Two cases are documented by Money, J., and Weinrich, J. D. (1993) in Juvenile, pedophile, heterophile: Hermeneutics of scence, medicine and law in two outcome studies. Int. J. Med. Law 2: 39-54. I have not found it online, so you may actually have to go to a real academic library to read it.

Let me give you some examples. First, girls with men:

This case is taken from ... en me vriendje houdt van mij: 23 verhalen uit het leven gegrepen, edited by Ben Füss and Gorrit Goslinga (Eindhoven: Stichting Uitgeverij NVSH, 1981).

Summary of the Case of Joke (30)

Joke’s parents started running a café when she was almost eight years old. They had boarders, two of whom had their own room. The rest of them only stayed for a couple of months and then left again.

There was no bathroom, only a toilet upstairs with a washstand. They all had to wash themselves there. They had to undress and go naked to the toilet. One of the boarders, Herman, met her while she was going to wash herself, when she was around 10. Before that, Herman had shown his attraction to her by allowing her to polish his shoes more often than her step-brother, for pocket money.

After they had met while she was going to the toilet, they secretly arranged to meet each Saturday as she went to wash herself. At first he only looked at her while she was washing herself. After a few times, he started to touch her body.

Later on, he also stimulated her sexually in her room, playing sexual games with her. She liked it. He caressed her all over, including her vagina. She remained passive and he showed his appreciation by giving her some extra money or helping her with her household chores. She used to wonder whether this was meant as a kind of payment, which would make her something of a whore (a concept she did not find particularly attractive), but now she realises it was just a token of affection.

She also asked him to enlighten her about sexual matters, for example how he got an erection. He showed her, but never tried to have genital sex with her, though he entered her vagina with his finger. He also told her about menstruation. In general, he always tried to help her and be nice to her.

They became close and after he had a very serious accident, which damaged his back, she visited him very often until her father did not allow her anymore. He died a few years later.

The relationship lasted for about 3 to 4 years and she really felt attached to him and liked being with him, and vice versa. She thinks the sexual contacts helped her in her sexual development.

Another: watch kimxxxyyy talk about her relationship at 12 with a man.

Heidi was 13 when she became involved with a woman of 28.

Here are cases of boys with men:

Denver

This case is taken from Ralph H. Tindall: The Male Adolescent Involved With A Pederast Becomes An Adult. Journal of Homosexuality, Vol. 3(4), 373-382, Summer 1978.

"Denver was referred at age 13 for taking part in vandalism directed toward a junior high school followed by running away from home. He was of high average ability and reading at grade level. He was quite interested in machinery and mechanics.

Denver reached pubescence by age 14. He was introduced to mutual masturbation at age 13 by peers, some of whom were more developed sexually. During his 14th year he began spending his spare time around a service station, where he became acquainted with a master mechanic who was then in his early 40s, married and childless. The mechanic and Denver began engaging in recreational pursuits together. On a fishing trip, during a break on an island, they began talking about sex, which led to Denver's being fellated by the mechanic and to masturbation of the mechanic by Denver. For the next 5 years mutual fellatio occurred two or three times per week. Sexual activity with the mechanic ceased at about age 19, but a close relationship continued to exist until the mechanic's death.

Denver is now 44 years of age. He was married and fathered two sons. He and his first wife were divorced and he raised his boys. One boy went to college and the other boy to a technical school. Denver remarried and has been a valued mechanic with the same company for 20 years. He has a supervisory position and believes that his relationship with his mechanic friend helped him reach his goals. He says he would have approved a similar relationship for either of his sons, had he become aware of such a situation. He reports no desire to have sex with males since approximately age 20."

Another:

This case is taken from "... en me vriendje houdt van mij: 23 verhalen uit het leven gegrepen", edited by Ben Füss and Gorrit Goslinga (Eindhoven: Stichting Uitgeverij NVSH, 1981).

An anonymous 55-year-old man tells about his relationship as a boy with aman of 46, Dick.

"We had just moved and that was how I met a nice man, as a 13-year-old. We talked a lot, in his room. He was very interested in art and possessed a lot of books with pictures of works of art and sculptry. I had little interest for this but did not want to hurt Dick's feelings. Only the pictures that showed nudity captured my interest. I also tried to hide this. [...]"

This interest was noticed by Dick and it led to Dick briefly caressing the boy's genitals. Dick was very cautious and tried to end it immediately.
The boy was very eager to have additional sexual experiences and finally persuaded Dick to allow him a visit. One thing led to another and the end result was a tender sexual relationship that lasted for about six years.

After the war he re-established a life-long friendship with Dick, though without the sexual aspect. He was there when Dick died at age 83.

He adds: "The value of this relationship is something I continue to cherish till this very day."

Another: This case was originally published by R. C. Savin-Williams, in 1997, in his book ". ..And Then I Became Gay:" Young Men's Stories, published by Routledge, New York.

Boy = 12, man = 22. It lasted 9 months with his science teacher. "It developed over time and was great. We became friends and I invited him over once when my parents weren't home. I practically had to force sex on him because he was afraid about losing his job. Ended when I went away for the summer and he wasn't a teacher at my school no more" (p. 163).

The next case is mentioned by Bruce Rind, in the Appendix of his article Gay and Bisexual Adolescent Boys' Sexual Experiences With Men: An Empirical Examination of Psychological Correlates in a Nonclinical Sample in Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 30, No.4, 2001.

Boy = 12, man = 35. The man was a family friend; the sex was mutually initiated, oral, off and on for 10 years (a couple of times per month), and "physically great." It confused the subject that the man was married, yet was willing to have sex with him. "Eventually I fell in love with him; knew I was gay but did not broadcast this; I was curious because of the age difference. Mutual oral sex happened after he fondled me; it was the first orgasm I ever had."

Let me know if you need any other examples.

Shrink Rap, thank you for sharing this information with us. I think it is good to share opinions and ideas, so that we can all benefit from them.

I think you bring a lot of education and knowledge to this forum, and I appreciate the support you have shown to paedophiles, and in advocating the rights of minor-attracted people. So please don’t feel unwelcome here.

I admit that I haven't read the study, but I have to say that I am not comfortable with the idea that the samples you have given are representative of positive child sexual abuse cases.

I think people's responses are many and varied. For example, it is possible that an adult could report a positive or neutral experience at being assaulted or raped. However, it is not because the victim reports a positive experience that the abuser is in the right. If I rape a man (e.g. anal penetration without consent) and just so happen to pick a man that happens to enjoy the experience, does that mean that I am no longer guilty of a crime?

I believe that a child can't give informed consent, and that it's very difficult to know how much harm sexual touching does to a child. So I believe it is appropriate for all sexual touch between adult and children to be outlawed.

I understand that beliefs like mine can be prone to hysteria. For example I was an adult volunteer on a kids camp and told that we were not allowed to accept hugs from children. (Too bad if a child is crying and wants to be comforted! )

I agree that social hysteria does more harm than good and can cause negative effects to the child, such as the guilt and shame of having to harbour the secret of any abuse.

However I feel that arguing that child sexual abuse can be a positive experience does not aid your cause. It alienates people. It is too easily construed as an argument to condone grooming children for sex. Children are vulnerable and impressionable. If they respect you and you tell them there's something special that you want to share with them, they may well believe you. Even years later when they're an adult. Child sexual abuse victims may not all end-up angry and 'damaged', but I suspect that most suffer in some way from the abuse they experienced.

Platypus wrote: it is possible that an adult could report a positive or neutral experience at being assaulted or raped.

Unless you mean "raped" in the statutory sense only, I fail to see how this is possible.

However, it is not because the victim reports a positive experience that the abuser is in the right.

Neither I nor Rind has said that it is right to abuse, just that it is not as harmful as popularly assumed.

If I rape a man (e.g. anal penetration without consent) and just so happen to pick a man that happens to enjoy the experience, does that mean that I am no longer guilty of a crime?

This is really far-fetched. If he enjoyed it, why would it have had to be a rape in the first place?

I believe that a child can't give informed consent, and that it's very difficult to know how much harm sexual touching does to a child. So I believe it is appropriate for all sexual touch between adult and children to be outlawed.

I am not sure why you are refusing to accept the definitive science on the subject because from it we do know that negative effects are neither pervasive nor typically intense. Perhaps you should read A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples, although one should at least have a science background.

Regarding informed consent, eating ice cream contributes to obesity, diabetes, and arteriosclerosis among other illnesses. Children cannot give informed consent to eating it, so then I presume you think it is appropriate to outlaw children eating ice cream and/or to imprison adults who give it to them. Sorry, but it makes just as much sense.

I understand that beliefs like mine can be prone to hysteria. For example I was an adult volunteer on a kids camp and told that we were not allowed to accept hugs from children. (Too bad if a child is crying and wants to be comforted! )

Your stance appears contradictory. You see how these laws cause more harm than good, yet you continue to support them.

Child sexual abuse victims may not all end-up angry and 'damaged', but I suspect that most suffer in some way from the abuse they experienced.

Again, your suspicion is not borne out by what has been demonstrated in the professional literature. Perhaps you should read again what I wrote about the definitions of "abuse" and how they could be construed as positive.

I am surprised by some of your responses Shrink Rap; however I hope we can find some common ground.

Shrink Rap wrote:Unless you mean "raped" in the statutory sense only, I fail to see how this is possible.

Would you agree that "harmful", "non-consensual" and "not enjoyable" all have separate meanings?
So that it is possible for an event to be consensual and enjoyable, but at the same time be harmful?
And for an event to be harmful and non-consensual, however still be enjoyable?

Shrink Rap wrote:This is really far-fetched. If he enjoyed it, why would it have had to be a rape in the first place?

I do not believe "rape" is defined by the victim's emotional reaction, but by their lack of consent.

Shrink Rap wrote:Your stance appears contradictory. You see how these laws cause more harm than good, yet you continue to support them.

I don't feel that my views are contradictory here. Water is good for us, yet drink too much and you can die from it. Most things in life seem to work best in moderation. Unfortunately hysteria is rarely moderate.

I have to say there are some fascinating debates taking place on this forum that make for some interesting reading. I find myself - paradoxically - agreeing with both sides most of the time.

Platypus wrote:Most things in life seem to work best in moderation.

I just wanted to get your opinions on this Platypus and ShrinkRap (and anyone else who would like to share) because it's very interesting. The issue of pedophilia and adult/minor sexuality seems to be one that isn't dealt with in moderation. There seems to be a black and white, formulaic divide. On the one hand, total abstinance forced on both adults and minors, on the other hand, sexual contact in any way, shape or form - no matter the circumstances or individuals involved - which will invariably cause harm in one way or another. The issue is polarized and people gravitate to either one of these poles depending on their views and past experiences.

However, it sounds to me (and correct me if i'm wrong) like ShrinkRap is trying to demonstrate that the issue isn't so clear cut, and is highlighting with evidence the existence of a moderate, middle road - a challenging grey area that is more difficult to comprehend. One where sexual contact with minors (though not young children from what i can see from the examples) doesn't necessarily have to be harmful. As you say yourself, most things seem to work best in moderation, but total abstinance for an entire lifetime isn't moderate, it's extreme. As is propounding the unrealistic claim that all minor's are 'innocent' and effectively asexual. On the other hand, behaving lustfully with children is also another extreme which demonstrably has incredibly negative side-effects for all involved - particularly the child. Isn't the moderate path - the one that would work best in life - somewhere between these two extremes?

Sorry I have not been responding to this thread, not sure why it turned into a debate, but I am going to stay out of that.

I haven't had to bring up the job with my mother, since they don't start hiring until about mid-July, but I also haven't found another job yet.

I know some people have been asking what the job is, and honestly I have been avoiding answering that question because I know you will think I am being stupid. The job is directing traffic, three hours a day and five days a week.

Take it. I think getting out and doing some work will boost to your self-esteem, which in turn will make you less likely to 'act out'. Your confidence with such matters will not improve unless you prove to yourself that you can do it.

The other bonus is that 3 hours a day will leave you plenty of time to look for another job and attend interviews.