Speculations on affection toward children from non-offenders

Though I'll refer to myself sometimes, I ask readers to put themselves in my shoes and give their perspectives. Please comment however you feel will make this topic into a conversation worth having, and let's please try to disabuse our moderators of too much controversy. (They do have to deal with a lot after all)

I find that drawing the line between acceptable and unacceptable behavior is difficult for me sometimes when I'm with children. I often can't tell where sexual feelings stop and affection begins. Does this mean that, in order to protect girls, I should never show them affection?

...

In that same vein, I believe that one of the purposes of my life is to be a good father so I ask myself, "Will I be willing to give up the exquisite joy of holding my own daughter in my arms if it will somehow keep her safe? "
Though the sacrifice seems every bit as painful as you can possibly imagine, my answer is,
Yes.

I don't believe there are any easy or universal answers to any of the questions I'm asking. I ask pedophiles who doubt their capacities for restraint as I have, "Where do your values lie? What are you willing to sacrifice for the things you value when it comes to dealing with your urges?"

As for me, I'm aware of my weakness and so is my wife. I think I can trust in my support system, (including my therapist and group). With that, a strong sense of right and wrong, and a will to sacrifice if all else fails, I think my daughters will have the benefit of my affection without any great risk.

With all of this said, I feel the need to ask everyone now, especially survivors of CSA, "Are all of these precautions enough? What level of affection is acceptable under the circumstances I briefly described above? What could make the circumstances better in your opinion? And how much of your opinion has been biased by the hurt you've felt from offenders?"

I'm sorry if my writing is jumbled, btw... I'm a bit sleep deprived right now.

i think it's really good that you've recognised and shared your areas where you are doubtful in. that's really good!

i think the line would be where you start feeling an attraction toward the kid, not seeing them as just a child anymore who's sweet and wants a hug or whatever.

you should also only ever hug a kid or kiss him/her on the cheek and lift them up. i personally don't think any other form of touching is acceptable??

i'm also sleep deprived so i hope i've made sense!!

well done again, xx

I ride this razor edge every day being a father myself. The key I have found is a little thing called hypervigilance. You always have to be aware of your surroundings and your emotions. Holding your daughter is just fine as long as you are not aroused or are looking at her as anything other than your child. It is your responsibility to be aware of how you are feeling. For example say you are sitting on the couch with your daughter and all the sudden you start thinking how smooth her legs are you. You need to see the red flag going up and move away from her. When you start getting comfortable with the Idea that being sexual is normal part of life and this no longer affects you that is when your children are at the most risk.

One pitfall that some people fall in to is the, I’m not doing what was done to me so its not abuse. For example my father was raped by his father so when he became a parent he vowed he would not do it to his children. However, in doing that he assumed that everything short of penetration was not abuse. When I confronted him about his molestation of me as an adult he just kept repeating “well I never raped you.” He was so blinded by the fact that he didn’t want to repeat what happened to him he couldn’t see that he was doing it just in another form.

Thank you scarred_cutter & Lostson. It means a lot that you share your opinions so kindly. It is a touchy topic, after all. Thank you for sharing a bit of your and your father's story, Lostson. It does help to be reminded that "not as bad" is often still really bad.

As far as the line between attraction and affection goes, I truly wonder if it will be clear to me when I need it to be. Sometimes I see the distinction, but other times-- and I'm worried it might turn out to be the vast majority of the time when one day there's a child at home-- I can't see that boundary at all. I imagine whenever that happens I could just separate myself from my daughter, but my fear is that she could develop issues with me leaving her all the time. Children need affection. From stories I've seen on TV, read, and learned elsewhere, I see that those who never felt appropriate intimacy with their parents, most commonly their fathers, grow up looking for intimacy elsewhere, usually in all the wrong places.

So my struggle here is balance between separating myself from girls when I'm excited by them, and being sensitive to their needs. Hypervigilance seems to be very appropriate, but I'm tempted to apply it only to my actions and not my thought processes since my judgment in that regard is off, as I've said.

Let me give an example.
[EDIT: The images I describe could trigger unwanted thoughts/memories you if you're a pedophile or victim of CSA]
There are family and friends who have girls that cling to me whenever we/they visit. One in particular is especially fond of me, and I think that's probably, in part, because of my behavior toward her. I'm very attracted to her and unable to simply turn that attraction off when I'm near her. On top of that, I see a very clearly expressed need in the girl for physical and emotional affection that I'm not ready to deny her. The first time she made contact with me other than just a short hug or tug on my hand, I was sitting in a low seat against some things that she climbed up in order to sit on my shoulders. It was a rather peculiar way to get closer to me, and she may have chosen that way for various reasons that aren't too relevant. I was surprised at first, not expecting it, and entertained slightly. When she got off my shoulders she fell into my lap. Though I could control getting aroused, my heart did somersaults and I had already begun to think of the way her body felt, sliding down onto my lap. Before that, her weight on my shoulders and the fact that her thighs were wrapped around my neck triggered something I can't easily describe. That triggering led to the palpitations and hypersensitivity I felt. She slid off my lap after a second and I thought it was over. I felt a twinge of regret that I had been relatively unaware and inwardly reluctant when she'd made that contact with me. I wanted it again, reasoning that it was acceptable to want to be close to her in a public place, (which we were, watching TV), and thinking that, if she wanted acceptance and closeness, it was good to provide that for her. I said nothing and made no move, and she didn't disappoint. She repeated the action again, and I was less reluctant, though still a little uncomfortable with the racing thoughts that I'd instinctively suppressed the first time. They were thoughts of kissing her lips, embracing her, stroking her face and her body, not of fondling nor intercourse. She did this several times, laughing a little throughout, maybe because of the awkwardness or just because it was funny that an adult would let her do such a thing, climbing up behind me, placing her feet on my shoulders, straddling my neck, dismounting my shoulders, sliding down my torso into my lap then onto the floor, not always precisely like that, but close. She paused longer on my lap about the third and subsequent times. That was likely because I sent the signal that I liked her on my lap. I would make my lap flatter so that she wouldn't slide off as naturally, and I'd place my hand lightly on her outer thigh or stroke her face or hair when I didn't feel too awkward. The chair somehow made it difficult to allow her to sit on my lap, but she paused comfortably on my shoulders several times and I let myself touch her lower legs, her knees, and again her thighs. Feeling her straddle the back of my neck actually pleased me more than having her on my lap. While I said nothing to encourage her, and didn't stop her from sliding off of me and potentially leaving, I didn't want her to stop whatever she thought she was doing. -- If I remember correctly, she actually left the room in-between slides then returned to continue. I offered no farewell and no greeting except with my eyes and a smile, maybe. More explicit fantasies came, but I'd expected that and stayed relaxed, trying not to dwell on them. I did feel an erection at least once, though it wasn't noticeable, and I made sure it stayed that way until I forced it to go away by ignoring it. I'd never felt so fawned over by a girl before, even though I knew it meant something different to her than it did to me, and I wasn't used to that kind of mental or physical stimulation. Still, I thought I handled it well, never leaving the public place and stopping myself before my hands went near any part of her that my wife would have looked strangely at me for. She seemed very pleased with my attention and was only sorry to see me leave after about a half-hour. The entire time I felt very self conscious whenever I saw her parents, and especially when my wife was in view. It didn't feel innocent, though I tried very hard to make it that way completely.

What does everyone make of this? Appropriate? Inappropriate? What about showing affection when children ask for it and getting aroused without wanting to?

It's a long-winded description of the first time we were close, but I figure more detail is better for the sake of analysis. I remember it so well though it's been almost a year since.

even though I knew it meant something different to her than it did to me, This is very important to remember Because that little girl had not even an inclining about the feelings that you did.

I have been in similar situations and in my nonprofessional opinion I would say this is inappropriate and that is just my therapy talking. You were aroused by her you knew it and although you did not touch her in a sexual way or anywhere near her genitals you still got sexual gratification from it, right? I would say you knew it was inappropriate because when you saw your wife you felt that twinge of guilt. I don’t mean to sound more holy then thow but in my eyes this isn’t walking the line this is on the other side it Sorry.

Thanks for your honesty. I expect you won't be the only one who feels that way.

I would make my lap flatter so that she wouldn't slide off as naturally, and I'd place my hand lightly on her outer thigh or stroke her face or hair when I didn't feel too awkward. The chair somehow made it difficult to allow her to sit on my lap, but she paused comfortably on my shoulders several times and I let myself touch her lower legs, her knees, and again her thighs

Alright this part disturbs me. Whenever you find yourself in this kind of predicament you need to get up and walk away. Touching her thighs and stroking her face will just make you want her even more.

Regarding the "guilt" felt in front of my wife. There was uneasiness and shame, but I make a distinction between shame and guilt. I see guilt as the pricking of one's innate conscience whereas shame is a product of past experience such as the ostracism individuals feel when others judge them. Although I trust my wife's judgment when it comes to my discretion with children, I think I was more worried about seeing myself through her in the eyes of others. Knowing me, she knows what I might have felt, and though I'm confident she would have seen the way I touched the girl as all right, the world wouldn't have. This is proven even between you and me.

The world has villainized/glorified sexuality in general. Everyone expects men not to control themselves when they're aroused, so it's natural to believe that the situation above was inappropriate.

If I hadn't felt aroused does anyone believe that my actions would have been bad?

S3 wrote:.

If I hadn't felt aroused does anyone believe that my actions would have been bad?

Well if you hadn't been aroused, no the actions would not have been bad. But you made a conscious move for physical contact with her.

I think I understand where you're coming from. "more physical contact" may be the words I'd use. I never once approached her or beckoned her. She left and came back on her own. She sat on my shoulders, and I reciprocated in a very minor way, by touching her in a way that any non-pedophile might. There was no arousal as long as I could help it. I still respect your opinion if you think it wasn't wise.

What do either of you have to say to my other question?
What about showing affection when children ask for it and getting aroused without wanting to?
Let me add: Do you think it would harm a child's opinion of themself if he/she didn't receive adequate affection growing up? How would you reconcile leaving the child's needs unmet while satisfying my own need to get away?