The invisible potential predator

DayZero wrote:

Boulangerie wrote:Why do you assume that you would hurt anybody if you ever made your fantasises come true ?

depend on the situation. In the deep corner of my mind, it has gone down in the sweetest way. Sometimes accompenyed by a likeminded woman, as i can have a grown relationship.

But.. Its not always so sweet... And that is the scenario i fear the most.. As if i would be.. unforgiven. Maby by God, or the universe... I dont know...

You understand that whether you molest a child sweetly or sadistically, you are likely to irreparably damage the child for life, right? Is your 10-second orgasm worth that?

I consider it my responsibility as an adult never to take my own stuff out on other people, especially younger people. They deserve better. I would think as a parent you would understand that more than anyone.

Callalily wrote:You understand that whether you molest a child sweetly or sadistically, you are likely to irreparably damage the child for life, right? Is your 10-second orgasm worth that?

You do understand, that we are not talking about if it is ok to do it or not?
Personally, i would have done it years ago, if i tought it was harmless.

To understand the problem, you must put your self into the mind of a wery sexual person.
If your lusts were denied you every day for many years, you would probably become a sexual "monster" waiting to explode your self.
Your arguments are just, but sexuality is a strong force. Eaven nice guys and girls that has this nature, fall.
Probably most of the people that do it are nice persons "by your standards". ( If you take away their sexuality )
What does that tel you. Do you think they did not think about the consequenses before they acted?
And yes, its probably worth it for the person who does it.

I agree with you that it in the modern society, it would hurt the young eather way. Soft or not.

We could discuss if it would be harmfull for the young, if it were soft, and living in a diferent part of the world. But that is another discussion.

DayZero wrote:You do understand, that we are not talking about if it is ok to do it or not?
Personally, i would have done it years ago, if i tought it was harmless.

Okay. Your last post made it sound like this was going to turn into a pro-contact thread. I usually try not to get involved in those because I know it's pointless, but sometimes I can't help it.

DayZero wrote:To understand the problem, you must put your self into the mind of a wery sexual person. If your lusts were denied you every day for many years, you would probably become a sexual "monster" waiting to explode your self.

I hear what you're saying, but here is maybe a different way of looking at it. Again, this is just an idea, I am not trying to tell you what to do or judge you in any way.

What if you are not a monster. You are turned on by some dark and disturbing things, as many of us are, because human sexuality can be kind of insane. This particular thing that turns you on has become an obsession. It now turns you on out of all proportion with how arousing it might actually be in reality. You imagine it as the greatest pleasure you will ever know, this forbidden, perfect thing. The fact that it is difficult to obtain and "bad" makes you crave it all the more.

You feel powerless over your cravings. You hate yourself because you feel you can't control them. You keep indulging your urges which makes you feel monstrous, and yet you feel an incredible, giddy freedom when you yield to them. You've evolved the ability to shut off your conscience, your feelings of empathy, your wise, adult voice. You've built walls of denial and justification. You've learned to delude yourself and forget all consequences in the pleasure of the moment.

I'm familiar with all these things because I'm a drug addict. I have been addicted to painkillers, heroin and alcohol. I'm not trying to reduce pedophilia to an addiction; I believe that it can be a valid sexual orientation, that there are pedophiles who love children and desire to connect with them emotionally the way most of us do with adults. But it sounds like, for you, this is more of a fetishized fantasy than a desire for intimacy with another person. You haven't fallen in love with a child. You are masturbating to thoughts of hurting them. You desire things you aren't proud of and wouldn't be able to live with yourself for doing.

In AA I learned not to berate or judge myself morally. I accept that I crave things that give me a great deal of shallow pleasure and let me escape, but which also make me miserable. I know I need to stay away from them for my own sanity and health. I know that when I'm using I'm not sane or healthy, even though it feels like I am. I recognize that I'm going to be tempted to relapse, so I do things to make sure that doesn't happen. I don't believe in will power; I believe in impulses and behaviors and triggers I need to honestly assess and modify.

TLDR, maybe you might benefit from something like a 12-step program? Just a thought.

First of all, i would like to thank you for your wel-written personal input. I found it wery interesting reading, and it sounded wery sensible to me.
I wil try to respond to most of it with the respect it deserves.

Callalily wrote:What if you are not a monster. You are turned on by some dark and disturbing things, as many of us are, because human sexuality can be kind of insane. This particular thing that turns you on has become an obsession. It now turns you on out of all proportion with how arousing it might actually be in reality. You imagine it as the greatest pleasure you will ever know, this forbidden, perfect thing. The fact that it is difficult to obtain and "bad" makes you crave it all the more.

I believe i am an adict as you describe it. Hoocked on a drug i never tryed, and there really is no medisine for. As i never did anything about it, i cant comment on how it would be in real life. But i think you are right in your analyses of the obsession, craving, forbidden. Sadly, its not difficult to obtain. I have already been offered in other contries. I managed to turn down the offers.

Callalily wrote:You've evolved the ability to shut off your conscience, your feelings of empathy, your wise, adult voice. You've built walls of denial and justification. You've learned to delude yourself and forget all consequences in the pleasure of the moment.

That is correct. I have been able to do that over the years. Never tought it was because of my sexuality. Thank you for waking me up. Just tought i was naturaly turning into a bad as

Callalily wrote: it sounds like, for you, this is more of a fetishized fantasy than a desire for intimacy with another person. You haven't fallen in love with a child. You are masturbating to thoughts of hurting them. You desire things you aren't proud of and wouldn't be able to live with yourself for doing.

Its not correct. I do have fetishized fantasy side, as you describe it. But i think that becomes more natural over the years, beacuse of the hard material that is out there. If you understand what i mean. Growing up, i never wanted the bad side of it. I wanted to love in all ways, like you do to a woman. When you understand that its not gonna happen, ever. You turn to what you have left. The destructive hardcore $#%^.

Callalily wrote: I don't believe in will power; I believe in impulses and behaviors and triggers I need to honestly assess and modify.

I understand what you are saying. But will power, still is good enough for me. Im still strong in my sadness.

Callalily wrote:TLDR, maybe you might benefit from something like a 12-step program? Just a thought.

Sadly, we dont have things like that in my contry unless you have done something already. The only option is to call a shrink. And that is kind of risky i think. Scary.... exposing.....


Anyway, thanks again for your input

Callalily wrote:

YouthRightsRadical wrote:I personally don't believe that the sympathetic magic involved with you being harmed by someone across the globe you've never heard exists looking at a picture of you, but I am in the distinct minority in my skepticism.

I mean, if your father or a strange man had penetrated you when you were a boy, and filmed it, and you felt hurt or exploited by that experience, wouldn't it hurt more knowing that he'd circulated the footage without your consent? That strangers were trading these pictures of you and commenting on how hot you were and how well you took it and how much you clearly liked it? I don't know, it would hurt me, but then I'm pretty sensitive.

You must be very sensitive indeed. And I mean that in the psychic sense, given your apparent ability to know what random strangers you've never met are thinking and doing while they look at your picture.

Any harm that was done in the scenario you describe was done by the child molester. Whatever happens to the photographs after that point is impossible for the victim to know, and as a result, cannot impact the victim one way or the other. Destroying a copy you possess won't make the victim feel better, and masturbating to it won't make the victim feel worse.

-- Wed Oct 14, 2015 1:15 am --

Callalily wrote:I'm not trying to reduce pedophilia to an addiction; I believe that it can be a valid sexual orientation, that there are pedophiles who love children and desire to connect with them emotionally the way most of us do with adults.

Out of curiousity, were you aware that some people who are attracted to adults also experience base lust?

DayZero wrote:First of all, i would like to thank you for your wel-written personal input. I found it wery interesting reading, and it sounded wery sensible to me. I wil try to respond to most of it with the respect it deserves.

Thank you very much for saying that. I am glad it sounded respectful because it was intended to be.

DayZero wrote:I managed to turn down the offers.

Cannot imagine how difficult that must have been for you, and I hope you take genuine pride in it.

DayZero wrote:That is correct. I have been able to do that over the years. Never tought it was because of my sexuality. Thank you for waking me up. Just tought i was naturaly turning into a bad as

I think we all do it to an extent in order to stay sane. I know that while I drink my morning coffee there are people all over the world who are starving and terrorized and lucky to have clean water. I know the meat I eat probably came from a tortured animal that died badly. I know that my lifestyle does terrible damage to the earth. I know there is more I could do to help with these things, and I don't.

DayZero wrote:I do have fetishized fantasy side, as you describe it. But i think that becomes more natural over the years, beacuse of the hard material that is out there. If you understand what i mean.

I totally know what you mean. I don't look at child pornography but I look at regular porn, and my "tolerance" has raised over the years just as it would with any drug.

DayZero wrote:Growing up, i never wanted the bad side of it. I wanted to love in all ways, like you do to a woman. When you understand that its not gonna happen, ever. You turn to what you have left. The destructive hardcore $#%^.

Seriously, thank you SO MUCH for explaining this!! I have never understood why people who otherwise love children can be aroused seeing them hurt and exploited. It's seriously the thing that has confused me most about pedophilia for years. I can't thank you enough for clarifying.

DayZero wrote:I understand what you are saying. But will power, still is good enough for me. Im still strong in my sadness.

Okay, I believe you and I'm glad it is working. I just meant, if you are worried you're going to do something you don't want to, there may be practical things you can do to to avoid it. Like when I quit drinking, I didn't go anywhere near bars for a while. That's a pretty obvious example, but there are subtler ones I have learned from AA, like how to tell when I'm at risk for relapse, stuff like that.

DayZero wrote:Sadly, we dont have things like that in my contry unless you have done something already.

America doesn't either. I think if there were a Pedophiles Anonymous it would get firebombed. I know things like that might make you want to surrender to despair and sadness, but it sounds like you have a lot of strength and I hope you won't give up.

Maybe reputable online support communities are your best bet? And you're already looking for those which is great! AA puts a lot of emphasis on Community, because people who are isolated and alone are far more likely to drink. That is their #1 strategy when you want to relapse: contact someone. Reach out for help, day or night. It is amazing what talking through things can do.

Good luck to you.

YouthRightsRadical wrote:You must be very sensitive indeed. And I mean that in the psychic sense, given your apparent ability to know what random strangers you've never met are thinking and doing while they look at your picture.

You are very good at not answering direct questions. Let me make it more direct:

If your father or a strange man had penetrated you when you were a boy, and filmed it, and you felt hurt or exploited by that experience, and you found out the footage was being traded on CP sites, how would you feel?

YouthRightsRadical wrote:Any harm that was done in the scenario you describe was done by the child molester. Whatever happens to the photographs after that point is impossible for the victim to know, and as a result, cannot impact the victim one way or the other.

Except it does and we know it does:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8655 ... tml?pg=all.

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/arti ... e_victims/

You have a habit of saying things that seem reasonable to you and deciding that means they are true.

YouthRightsRadical wrote:Destroying a copy you possess won't make the victim feel better, and masturbating to it won't make the victim feel worse.

This has more to do with the problem of accountability in groups, e.g. why bother recycling when no one else is recycling, etc. In any case, what I was suggesting to the original poster was that it might make HIM feel better. Because turning off the part of your brain that cares about the victim is a dangerous habit to get into, if you're trying not to hurt anybody.

YouthRightsRadical wrote:Out of curiousity, were you aware that some people who are attracted to adults also experience base lust?

Of course. I am attracted to adult males and experience base lust for them. But I would be very turned off seeing them frightened or crying or hurt or degraded in some way. Because I love them. To be fair, I also don't have sadistic impulses toward them generally which makes me not a good person to ask. A domme might be better able to speak to this, whether it's arousing watching an adult male be raped or something.

Look, I'm not saying any of this to shame you or make you feel bad about your desires: I have some of them too. I'm trying to explain why for me, personally, looking at child porn is crossing a line. But I don't need to argue with you about it. It's a decision I have arrived at on my own based on what I can live with, and it's something everyone here needs to figure out for themselves as well.

Callalily wrote:

YouthRightsRadical wrote:You must be very sensitive indeed. And I mean that in the psychic sense, given your apparent ability to know what random strangers you've never met are thinking and doing while they look at your picture.

You are very good at not answering direct questions. Let me make it more direct:

If your father or a strange man had penetrated you when you were a boy, and filmed it, and you felt hurt or exploited by that experience, and you found out the footage was being traded on CP sites, how would you feel?

Unsurprised. After all, that's what I would have expected was happening before I found out.

Callalily wrote:

YouthRightsRadical wrote:Any harm that was done in the scenario you describe was done by the child molester. Whatever happens to the photographs after that point is impossible for the victim to know, and as a result, cannot impact the victim one way or the other.

Except it does and we know it does:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8655 ... tml?pg=all.

This doesn't support your assertion. Vicky doesn't know what images of her are still out there. Her reocurring dreams about an endlessly playing tv she can't turn off would be happening even if every bit of evidence of the original event had been destroyed precisely because there is no way for her to know that had happened.

Callalily wrote:http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/arti ... e_victims/

This is exactly the same story with a different victim.

Callalily wrote:You have a habit of saying things that seem reasonable to you and deciding that means they are true.

Just because the courts hold people who look at pictures accountable for child rape and assess multimillion dollar fines doesn't mean that's a reasonable thing to do. I thought we'd already established that I think the laws on this subject are #######4.

Callalily wrote:

YouthRightsRadical wrote:Destroying a copy you possess won't make the victim feel better, and masturbating to it won't make the victim feel worse.

This has more to do with the problem of accountability in groups, e.g. why bother recycling when no one else is recycling, etc. In any case, what I was suggesting to the original poster was that it might make HIM feel better. Because turning off the part of your brain that cares about the victim is a dangerous habit to get into, if you're trying not to hurt anybody.

No, this has to do with the problem of a single perpetrator hurting a child very, very badly indeed. So badly, that it is impossible for the perpetrator to make that child whole again. Because humans are crap at assessing how reality works, they get the idea that however much the victim was hurt must be equivalent to how much the perpetrator benefited, and thus the perpetrator must be able to make the victim whole again. This leads them to look at the harm and assume that it must have been perpetrated by more people than it really was, so that they can continue presuming the utilitarian calculus adds up to zero.

The trouble is, pleasure and pain don't add up to zero. We can do small gestures that alleviate a lot of suffering, and we can do things that satisfy us very little, yet which also harm people far more deeply. If pain and pleasure always added up to zero, we'd have to rethink pretty much everything about how our society works.

Callalily wrote:

YouthRightsRadical wrote:Out of curiousity, were you aware that some people who are attracted to adults also experience base lust?

Of course. I am attracted to adult males and experience base lust for them. But I would be very turned off seeing them frightened or crying or hurt or degraded in some way. Because I love them. To be fair, I also don't have sadistic impulses toward them generally which makes me not a good person to ask. A domme might be better able to speak to this, whether it's arousing watching an adult male be raped or something.

Look, I'm not saying any of this to shame you or make you feel bad about your desires: I have some of them too. I'm trying to explain why for me, personally, looking at child porn is crossing a line. But I don't need to argue with you about it. It's a decision I have arrived at on my own based on what I can live with, and it's something everyone here needs to figure out for themselves as well.

You seem to be assuming I'm arguing for my own sake. Why is that? I avoid seeking out real child pornography precisely because I don't like my pleasure and arousal mingled with compassion and pity for the kids depicted. That is an emotional response on my part, and doesn't reflect any sort of moral reality.

The way you tell these white knights against child pornography are full of crap is that they are against fictional drawings and computer-generated imagery too. At that point it's obvious that they don't care about the kids at all.

tiggy wrote:The way you tell these white knights against child pornography are full of crap is that they are against fictional drawings and computer-generated imagery too. At that point it's obvious that they don't care about the kids at all.

Really?

I'm sorry but you seem to have absorbed the usual paedophile propaganda. There are many issues with the depictions of children in sexual situations, no matter how they are technically achieved, that will have similar affects as real child pornography. Why would any sensible person champion any when they might have the same affects as real CP, thus getting around any particular piece of legislation?

I can't speak for the motivation of Graham Ovenden in producing his 'drawings', perhaps exploiting a loophole, but they are so realistic as to result in the following. Perhaps best not to search for such images, at least in the UK, where they might be deemed illegal, even though they just depict naked children, and this relates to the drawn images, not any photographs he also produced:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-enter ... 92921.html

These just illustrate how some might try to get around any ban by producing 'virtual' images, and which, as I have argued before, might be based on real child abuse, but not known at the time. That is just one issue for why we might want to see such images being illegal, and another is their use to groom children or to encourage more to become involved in such sexual attractions.

Something similar to what Ovenden achieved, but much better:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... WINGS.html

So, citing the above examples, which might be entirely possible with regard to illegal images, it is not safe to allow such depictions, especially when it cannot be conclusively proved to be the case that they are not based on real individuals.