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Emotive issues and clarity of thought

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Emotive issues and clarity of thought

Postby Endymion » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:34 pm

I've been blocked permanently from editing Wikipedia. This is not a massive blight on my life, as I wasn't a huge contributor. Anyway, as the contributions that led to me being blocked related to the issues I discuss here, I wanted to share my correspondence with the arbitration committee and see what you think. The reason I'm sharing this on a support forum is that I feel some people are incapable of clarity of thought when it comes to emotive issues, and for me the world would be a better place for both abuse victims and those with paraphilias if clarity of thought could prevail. The question in this case is: is the admin proceeding with clarity of thought, or is he offering knee-jerk responses that are not properly considered? Naturally I would ask that you respond with clarity of thought very much intact. ;)

After submitting an appeal that requested the reasons for the block being put in place, I received the following:

Looking at your contributions, there were a number which were clearly in breach of Wikipedia's child protection policies. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Child_protection

As Wikipedia has a zero tolerance approach on child protection issues, you were blocked indefinitely. I hope this explains matters sufficiently.


I responded:

Many thanks for your swift response. Would you mind me asking which contributions you are referring to, as I have browsed several of the more recent ones in the hope of identifying such breaches and am still none the wiser? Nowhere do I see contributions that breach the child protection policies, and I certainly haven't advocated anything that would put children at risk.

Thanking you in advance.


He responded:

The most egregious edits I saw were

-where you defend a scientist who supervised child abuse
-where you claim all men are attracted to 15-year-olds.

Both of these are covered by Wikipedia's "child protection policy", which is very strict in its implementation.


To clarify the above:

- The former relates to the article on the Kinsey studies. The article originally said: 'It has been stated that some of the data in his reports could not have been obtained without observation or participation in child sexual abuse, or through collaborations with child molesters'. I appended to this 'though this criticism in and of itself neither invalidates nor confirms Kinsey's findings, residing more in ad hominem territory'.

- The latter relates to the article on ephebophilia, which originally said, on the basis of a source document, that attraction to individuals in mid to late adolescence is 'common' among men. In fact, the source document said 'most men', and I felt that the word 'common' was misrepresentative.

I then said:

Many thanks for your response. I appreciate you citing examples. I would, however, like to contest that these do not violate the child protection policy. Neither of them does either of the following:

- pursues or facilitates inappropriate adult–child relationships
- advocates inappropriate adult–child relationships on- or off-wiki (e.g. by expressing the view that inappropriate relationships are not harmful to children),

My contribution on the Kinsey studies was intended to highlight a discrepancy between criticism of the scientist and criticism of the scientific work itself. The criticism of Kinsey may be valid on moral grounds, but it should not be conflated with criticism of his findings. His methodology may be repugnant to any right-thinking individual, but as a methodology it needs to be critiqued scientifically, not simply by casting aspersions at the character of the scientist. It has been drawn to my attention that perhaps I should not have inserted this (valid) interpretation of the criticism. I would accept that this could have been discussed on the Talk page first. Nonetheless, I don't feel that highlighting the fact that people are criticising 'the man and not the method' constitutes a child protection issue.

With regard to the ephebophilia article, I set out my reasons for changing the word 'common' to 'the norm' on its Talk page, stating that the word 'common' misrepresented the source being cited (which is still cited, incidentally). I also explained that my use of 'the norm' was not intended in a normative sense but rather as a statistical norm. In the end, contributor consensus settled on using the exact wording used in the source to avoid misrepresentation thereof. The abandonment of the original word, 'common', vindicated my point, even if the ultimate choice of wording differed from my edit. Again, I don't feel that this constitutes a child protection issue.

I understand the need for a strict child protection policy, but I honestly feel that I was judged very harshly when the block was implemented, as the above explanations clearly show that I had good reasons to make the edits I did in good faith, and certainly without any ulterior motive.


He replied:

On the ephebophilia article, you state that the term was not intended in the normative sense, but as a statistical norm. This is contradicted by the edit you made previously [I had first used the word 'normal' rather than 'the norm']. Indeed, you were specificially stating that attraction to children was normal - which falls under advocating inappropriate child-adult relationships.

I'm afraid the long and short of the matter is that you are now no longer able to edit Wikipedia. I do not see this changing and do not intend to argue the point further, but if any other members of the committee disagree, we will be back in touch. Please ensure you are copying in the arbitration committee in responses.


I said:

Many thanks for your response. I respect your opinion, though I disagree with it, for two reasons:

1) Stating that attraction to those in mid to late adolescence is normal is not the same as advocating relationships with them. One should not conflate attraction with action.

2) The scientific community's view on this matter is unequivocal; they roundly rejected the inclusion of hebephilia in the DSM-V (the 'bible' of psychiatry) because an overwhelming majority agreed that attraction to anyone in puberty is, from the biological/psychiatric perspective, normal, and to the scientific community ephebophilia is simply a nonsense term for the same reason.

I understand that this is an emotive issue for some, but dovetailing with scientific opinion does not constitute a violation of the child protection policy as formulated and neither should stating that the attraction is considered normal by the scientific community be taken as advocacy of illegal adult-child relationships.
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Re: Emotive issues and clarity of thought

Postby Tululaboo » Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:55 pm

I personally do not see anything wrong with any of that. You where not stating that attraction to children is normal, just in a scientific sense it was higher than common to find men attracted to 15 year olds. Im not very good with things like this I do find your correcting to be accurate and just. I think the admin was either reading more into it or was misunderstanding the corrections.

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Re: Emotive issues and clarity of thought

Postby YouthRightsRadical » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:37 am

Wikipedia has long standing policies about our kind, and have introduced an editorial bias to that effect. I presume the fact that you weren't a major contributor is why you hadn't noticed before.
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Re: Emotive issues and clarity of thought

Postby Endymion » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:54 am

Tululaboo wrote:I personally do not see anything wrong with any of that. You where not stating that attraction to children is normal, just in a scientific sense it was higher than common to find men attracted to 15 year olds.


Quite. By definition a child is anyone under an age of majority. Nonetheless, the opinion of the scientific community (and, frankly, anyone sane) is that attraction in heterosexual males to girls in mid to late adolescence is normal and the norm. The word 'common' did not reflect the source document, in which the scientist in question said 'most men'.

Tululaboo wrote:I think the admin was either reading more into it or was misunderstanding the corrections.


That's my view as well. He lacked clarity of thought on the issue. Which is a shame, because he's involved in managing an encyclopaedia, a compilation that aspires to be as factual as possible.

YouthRightsRadical wrote:Wikipedia has long standing policies about our kind, and have introduced an editorial bias to that effect.


In both instances I was defending science. Kinsey wanted to study sexual responses in children. To have based his study on sexual responses in adults, or perhaps bonobo monkeys of a comparable age to prepubescent children, would have been unsound from a methodological perspective. This is not to suggest that his methodology was sound (there are separate issues with his studies), but the most fundamental prerequisite for studying sexual responses in children was for him to look at actual sexual responses in actual children. Much as we may find this morally unpalatable, it is methodologically sound. Criticism of Kinsey on the grounds of morality should not eclipse this, and criticism of such criticism should not be construed as promoting adult-child sexual activity. The result of the admin's decision is that the article, as it stands, does not challenge the assumption that criticism of the man is a fair substitute for criticism of the method.

YouthRightsRadical wrote:I presume the fact that you weren't a major contributor is why you hadn't noticed before.


This is correct. I also hadn't logged in for many months after a heated discussion on the Talk page of the 'Jailbait' article, where a regular editor/contributor (who probably has some sway with the admin) was insisting on the inclusion of a criterion in the definition that I believed was unjustified. I asked him to provide a reliable source or sources to justify its inclusion, and he did not do so, instead resorting to spite editing another one of my edits on another article.
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