Is this abuse?

elfie24 wrote:I have never touched a child sexually and would never even dream of doing so. So please stop assuming that.

Are you aware of how we got that impression, or is this something I'm going to need to explain to you?

If you think what you're doing might qualify as abuse if I or someone like me did it, as evidenced by the mere existence of this thread, you might understand why we read your examples as overtly sexual.

The fact that you aren't a pedophile doesn't change whether what you're doing is abusive or not. That was your main question, wasn't it? If your response or lack thereof makes a difference?

elfie24 wrote:I'm not quite sure what you meant by the saying my mother is lying to me?

I'm saying she's asking us to lie to you, not that she's lying to you. I'm saying that we gave you what we understand to be the truth, and she's suggesting we should prioritize your anxiety issues over giving you accurate information. I disagreed, and felt that we should be giving you accurate information, even if that would exacerbate your issues.

elfie24 wrote:She stated that it wasnt an abusive touch, and that the child would not remember the touch because it wouldnt have really seemed out of the ordinary. If I had touched a child's genitals, now thats a different matter entirely.

Are you aware of the concept of infantile amnesia? None of us remember our infancy. This is a side-effect of the major brain restructuring that goes on during the first few years of life, among them the aquisition of language. The fact that we don't remember these years doesn't mean what happens to us during this period doesn't matter. In fact, because of the high brain plasticity in this period, the seeds for major issues can be planted by comparitively minor experiences during this highly adaptive and receptive time.

A baby won't remember a violent rape any better than an inoccuous touch. I'm explaining to both you and to your mother, that whether the baby remembers the event doesn't make any meaningful difference to the moral character of the act. Just like it doesn't make any difference to the moral character of the act if I grope a woman who's passed out drunk, and won't know, let alone remember, when she wakes up in the morning.

So if her focus was that this is the sort of touch the baby experiences all the time, that's one thing, but bringing up memory is a problem for the reasons I outlined above.

Yes, I understand what you meant now, and I agree. Abuse is abuse, regardless of whether the person was aware at the time or not. Perhaps I worded what she said wrong. Regardless, massaging a babies chest with your thumbs while holding him up doesnt seem abusive, it's just OCD has the ability to twist things morbidly in ones mind. I apologise for any confusion, my head is completely muddled and highly sensitized at the moment.

Are you aware of the concept of infantile amnesia? None of us remember our infancy. This is a side-effect of the major brain restructuring that goes on during the first few years of life, among them the aquisition of language. The fact that we don't remember these years doesn't mean what happens to us during this period doesn't matter. In fact, because of the high brain plasticity in this period, the seeds for major issues can be planted by comparitively minor experiences during this highly adaptive and receptive time.

A baby won't remember a violent rape any better than an inoccuous touch. I'm explaining to both you and to your mother, that whether the baby remembers the event doesn't make any meaningful difference to the moral character of the act. Just like it doesn't make any difference to the moral character of the act if I grope a woman who's passed out drunk, and won't know, let alone remember, when she wakes up in the morning.

Just for reference, I have memories of being an infant. They are very few and most all of them are only brief tactile and/or emotional memories (some of which indeed have been confirmed). This is not uncommon for people with DID as our memories aren't structured in the way neurotypical peoples memories are precisely due to trauma. So I agree with you for the most part, but just to have it said, it is not true for everyone.

So if her focus was that this is the sort of touch the baby experiences all the time, that's one thing, but bringing up memory is a problem for the reasons I outlined above.

I very much agree with this though, memory or no memory is irrelevant in that it still has harmful effects.

Okay, here's the thing: obviously, the act of non-sexually touching/hugging a child is not abusive, no matter the intent behind it. Similarly, touching a child sexually at all IS abusive, no matter the intent.

However, while it's not ABUSE to hug and touch a child non-sexually to determine whether you're aroused by/attracted to them... I'd say it is not generally advisable. My experience with OCD is limited, so I'll say that this is simply general advice.

Pushing boundaries (hugging, touching, changing diapers) to 'test' your attraction can seem like a good idea: 'I'll prove I'm not like that' (or 'I'll prove it's a real problem'), but it can easily become a slippery slope of denial and/or more and more extreme 'tests'. My point is that if you've performed these 'tests' in the past, you needn't feel guilty, but that you really should try to avoid them in the future.

On a small aside: most people do not like being 'used'. While there's certainly an argument to be made that 'what they don't know doesn't hurt them', I know how upset I'd feel if I discovered someone who showed me affection was merely trying to test their attraction to me. Because of that, performing such 'tests' would make me feel intensely uncomfortable.

Of course it gets a lot more muddled when you want to show affection but you also have the underlying need to 'test' yourself. My advice then would be to check yourself thus: 'Would I be doing this if I did not have those urges?', and then urge yourself to focus on the expression of affection and enjoying time with someone you care about, rather than testing yourself.

Um, sorry, but touching a child's chest, regardless of whether you are doing it for sexual gratification, is NOT child abuse. Touching a child's chest is touching a child's chest, regardless of your intentions. Do you think the child knows any different? Touching a child's chest is simply NOT harmful to child, period. Just because somebody receives sexual gratification from it, does not make it any more harmful to the child.

It's amazing how people think touching a child's chest is harmful to the child.

thank you. I agree with your post completely. This testing was something I was acutely aware of when this form of OCD first struck me...I rarely test myself anymore, only to thoughts that come into my head...mental testing. I try to avoid any contact with my younger siblings as well when I'm anxious or OCD-ing. I think my mind is just obsessing over what is an abusive touch and what isn't, and OCD likes to prey on doubt and grey areas. I appreciate your response and advice.

AndTobiMakesTwo wrote:On a small aside: most people do not like being 'used'. While there's certainly an argument to be made that 'what they don't know doesn't hurt them', I know how upset I'd feel if I discovered someone who showed me affection was merely trying to test their attraction to me. Because of that, performing such 'tests' would make me feel intensely uncomfortable.

I honestly could not put that better. Thank you.

PLEASE, elfie (and mother).....

Don't just come here in a forum for paraphiliacs saying we know nothing about the mental torture blah blah blah, you can't just say it to us paraphiliacs, no, I won't allow this.
Duh-huhhhhhh I have OCD too (not your kind of OCD though), in my OCD I'm obsessed with washing hands, closing doors and readjusting objects, although it's a different kind of OCD I can see how frustrating it is, then I also happen to be an exclusive pedophile and I suffer from depression and another bunch of things, and then there are people here whose lives are seriously ruined too including people with many paraphilias (I have two, but others might even have 3 or more), others have been sexually abused, I mean, what makes you think you're a special person needing to feel protected?? Everybody suffers here, everybody has a problem here, so what now?

We know, miss elfie's mother, about abuse here, as someone else said here, it is exactly our field, something we have to live with everyday, knowing the boundaries, laws and all, it's exactly our area of interest so yes we are experts in this and if you come to a forum of paraphiliacs (most of us are pedophiles are) we will tell you exactly what kinds of things are abuse and what is not.

Your daughter asked us specific questions, we all tried to reassure her she's not a pedophile, but her illness does not allow herself to believe anything we say. At this point, there's not much we can do here in this forum, so maybe the OCD forum is more appropriate.

TO ANSWER another question, abuse is abuse no matter if the child remembers or not. Everything that happens to our lives is info stored in our brains and it lies in the subconscious and can influence our entire lives especially things happening during childhood. So, just because apparently a child does not remember or understand the abuse it doesn't mean that the child in question will not have any trace of the abuse in his/her brain, it's all stored there and ready to backfire.
Abuse is wrong, regardless of the memory/perception the child has.

Well, obviously...and we did already clarify that she meant the touch itself was not out of the ordinary and wouldn't have generally been seen as such by the child.
You seem to be very defensive. And what I meant by suffering in terms of paedophilia-related concerns is that those of you with paedophilia actually enjoy your thoughts/feelings on some level, hence the diagnosis. I do not. Quite the opposite. Yet I suffer with the same amount of guilt as a paedophile and child molester, despite never having even liked the thoughts and being tortured with them on a daily basis. I too suffer from depression, anxiety and other issues, but I don't think it's a competition.

elfie24 wrote:Well, obviously...and we did already clarify that she meant the touch itself was not out of the ordinary and wouldn't have generally been seen as such by the child.
You seem to be very defensive. And what I meant by suffering in terms of paedophilia-related concerns is that those of you with paedophilia actually enjoy your thoughts/feelings on some level, hence the diagnosis. I do not. Quite the opposite. Yet I suffer with the same amount of guilt as a paedophile and child molester, despite never having even liked the thoughts and being tortured with them on a daily basis. I too suffer from depression, anxiety and other issues, but I don't think it's a competition.

Do I need to be very blunt about it? Alright, I will. You asked for it in a way. Yes I do enjoy fapping while thinking about girls who barely have their period if none at all, do I enjoy my pedophilic/hebephilic thoughts? Oh sure I do! And do I enjoy looking at young girls imagining them naked? Of course I do.
BUT NOW you answer this: do I enjoy eternally jerking off to someone I cannot have because having her would mean ruin both our lives??? Do I enjoy sexually and emotionally desiring someone I cannot touch without going to jail or get killed? Do I enjoy not being able to have a woman by my side because a mature body does not satisfy me?? Do I enjoy being single and not sexually active all my life? Do I enjoy being ridiculized and hated against by society just because I am a pedophile???

And second point, are we the same way, do you enjoy it and do you actually spend hours and hours fantasizing about children?? Do you?? No! So noooo you are not a pedophile!!! Is it really soooo hard to get? I understand you have POCD but seriously! Seriously!!!! It can't be any more obvious and we all keep repeating to you you are not like us. Stop that endless thought process torturing your brain. Hey! We are not so different in this case, I also get endless thought processes and they are leading to hell in my life, now tell me, what's stronger? Your need to survive this life or the illness??