On minor-attracted persons, "CP", society, and rationality

It's recently dawned on me over the past year I've been active on this forum--and in light of various articles, opinions, and news I've absorbed--that perhaps I haven't related some of my philosophies and views on this issue quite as clearly as I may have hoped. This has unfortunately led me into some conversations I'd rather not take part in, because there are some pedophiles I've talked to either through PM or other means who mistakenly believe that I'm advocating something I do not...mainly CP or sex with prepubescent children.

That said, I just want to make something completely clear here. I am honestly conflicted in my beliefs. There are some things I view from the perspective of the rest of society as being sane and rational. I can definitely see how their concerns about protecting their children from harm are warranted. At the same time however, I can see the toll that overprotection is taking, specifically on young teens and adolescents. There seems to be this intense focus on delaying their sexual interests as long as possible and stifling them from the outlets in which they may express it. This is mainly done by shoving such things as sexting or masturbation via webcam under the umbrella term of "child pornography" and having laws in place that effectively label any minor under the age of 18 as a "child"...which clearly, teenagers are not.

It's perfectly rational and normal to me for an adult to harbor a sexual interest in teenagers no matter what your sexual orientation, particularly teens around the age of 15 and up. I'm gay and my attraction to boys as low as 12 or 13 is something I see as a bit of a stretch, though I'm not worried about myself because though I struggle with such attractions, I know the difference between fantasy and reality and I conduct myself appropriately. I've never actively pursued anyone younger than 15 and haven't for several years since I did research on the laws and all the teen friends I had when I was 18 myself have since grown up. I'm a moral person.

But because of society's reactions, I find that I often don't feel "normal". I've been chastised by one of my friends who called me a "pedophile" for thinking a 17 year-old actor was attractive only days before his 18th birthday. I'm also a bit alarmed because as I've grown older (I'm now 26), it seems my attractions have gotten younger, though I think some of it has to do with the curiosity I had at the age of 17 to look up nude pics of 13 year-old boys. Now looking back on it, I can see such curiosity as perhaps being within the confines of "normal" to a certain degree, but definitely not now. And that's not society talking, that's what I personally believe.

My personal views in regards to pedophilia and minor-attracted persons--and considering what I've learned from threads on this forum--is that there needs to be rational discussion as to what is best for EVERYONE...not just what caters only to the needs of society or only the needs of teens or what is best to do in the case of pedophiles, but EVERYONE. And sometimes that means putting new laws or practices into effect or lifting bans that many may not agree with.

For example, consider this. It is perfectly legal to watch and possess gorey films that depict the slaughtering of people. It's perfectly legal to watch and possess the real thing, i.e. there is a video that has been circulated online of 3 Ukrainian teen boys brutally murdering an innocent man and smashing his face in. Gore fetishists may get off on this sort of thing. Is that wrong? Are the people who view this material a danger to society by doing so? Now let's use the same argument for CP. A whole other ballgame...but is it really?

Consider that those charged with possession of CP are often given harsher sentences than those who actually took part in destroying the life of the child. Why is this? I've read in numerous threads on this forum alone that many people have already looked up CP and are paranoid over it because of existing laws. Before anyone starts fuming, let's take a good hard look at what exactly is considered CP these days.

Teens and young adolescents are now being charged with production and possession of CP that they created...OF THEMSELVES. I read cases about sexting almost every month. It happened in my former high school in fact. And since teens are considered children, think about what that does to the level of so-called "CP" being produced.

The first bits of real CP that cops in the US have been using to catch people for years has been circulating since the 1970's. This was originally collected as evidence to convict those who had actually kidnapped and molested the children depicted, and it was ordered by the courts that the tapes be destroyed after the cases were closed. This never happened. Instead, someone at the dawn of the internet age came up with the bold idea to spread it around in the name of catching potential child molesters. (This is outlined in Judith Levine's book Harmful To Minors: The Perils of Protecting Children from Sex. Okay, so that much I can understand. What I don't understand is why webcam vids of underage teens enjoying their own sexuality--and in which there is no harm being done--is in any way illegal.

I don't say this solely because I want a better outlet for my sexual attractions--although that somewhat plays into it. I say this because I believe it to be rational. If there is no physical or emotional harm being done...what's the crime?

A great deal of how I came to this conclusion can be found here, and this article explains it much better than I can: http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/07/three-r ... ng-decade/

Let me make it clear that I do not condone sex with children, nor would I ever harm them. I do not condone CP either, and when I say CP, I mean CHILD pornography...not videos of teen boys enjoying themselves and harming no one. Regarding my personal beliefs as well, I would honestly never even pursue nor touch a teenage boy. I'm too old for it, but I always have my fantasies and teen boys aren't all that I'm attracted to. My point is though, what would be the harm in watching a few videos where no one is being hurt? If such things were legal, it would

1) conserve law enforcement resources and time and allow them to catch REAL criminals instead of wasting time
2) eliminate a great deal of desperation and relieve much of the stigma pedophiles/hebephiles/ephebophiles face
3) encourage rational discussion in society
4) put an end to teens' shame regarding their own sexuality

Now as far as what I believe society is currently doing wrong, I can't top what I said here if you scroll down the part where I put "here's my reply" : paraphilias/topic88060.html

Also a lengthy post, but one that I believe is worth reading because I think I throughly nailed it on the head. It goes over all points, from pervy people who are a real danger to society vs. shame about body image and how teen sexuality is repressed vs. how society reacts to those "like us" (I'm sorry, I just really hate labeling myself and the rest of people who share my attractions...just feels wrong).

Now I realize I may have some very out-there beliefs, but all have been culled from my own personal experiences and things I've read as I've discovered myself and my sexual identity over the years and they are what I've come to view as rational and logical when considering society and the whole demonization of pedophiles and other minor-attracted people. The last thing I want is for either crowd to be getting the wrong idea when I state my beliefs.

Just wanted to put that out there. Yes, I may see amateur videos of teens (as well as any form of porn) as a sexual outlet, but that objectification (if one calls it that) is far from how I feel in real life. Same as with anyone who regularly looks at porn. I separate the fantasy. Personally I love them, I love their energy and I care about them as I do all human beings and would gladly help anyone in need and not take advantage of anybody because that's not in my nature and my sexual attractions don't dictate who I am as a person.

But just because I may watch videos of teens (twink porn or otherwise...don't really see the difference) DOES NOT mean I actively want to go out and have sex with them. Given the chance and if it were legal and consensual, sure maybe...but just watching videos of teen boys having a wank and enjoying it? Where's the harm in that?

I just felt I had to say something, because I personally CAN separate my sexual fantasies from reality and so I see my views as logical, but there are those who can't see the difference. I realize there are those who honestly want to pursue things in the real world or who have in the past and let their own urges get the best of them, and I don't need my views "fueling their fire", so to speak. I just don't want to be misunderstood.

personally, i don't sexually fantasise about doing things that i wouldn't enjoy doing in real life if they were permitted and possible. but most people do. this leads me to a problem. i do think that sexual contact with children, and child pornography, should be legal (with proper legal precautions in place to protect the child from being harmed or victimised in any way), but the fact is that our society has a very negative impression of what sexual contact should be, and makes pornography geared to that taste. even though i'm attracted to adult women, most pornography featuring them is either based around rape fantasies, or at the very least a sort of taboo-breaking sense of getting away with something shameful. this is upsetting to me, because i think sex is beautiful, not shameful, and as such i find rape to be absolutely abominable. it distresses me that anyone would even voluntarily choose to do pornography of that kind. but with that being virtually the only kind of pornography in existence, i almost feel like i understand where people are coming from when they don't want children involved in it, or indeed in any kind of sexuality if one sees sexuality in such a negative way. i just can't understand how they see that as okay for adults. our society needs to mature its view of sexuality in general before it can even begin to expand it.

Thanks revolutionex for the great post. I think this is a very important topic and I look forward to reading what others think.

My two cents about pornography in general (more like ten dollars' worth of opinion, but whatever):

When we watch pornography, we are consuming a product, and every product, I think, has values, whether we recognize them as corresponding to our own values or not. There's no way to get around the objectification of a person in pornography; we are consuming acts for our own gratification. Whether the person performing is enjoying themselves or not, whether they feel it is empowering or not, is something we can't truly know; you could argue that even with a partner in the flesh it's impossible to know these things, but the difference is that the negotiation takes place in real time, with a real person you have to contend with on a one-to-one basis. There is a community that exists, no matter how superficial, when people are in actual contact with each other. When we work out something as serious and powerful as our sexuality via the internet, I think we lose something vital, and the gain--to get off--seems minimal. I think that pornography alienates us from each other because we are only able to engage with our own desires, but we're acting them out ON each other rather than WITH each other. People do this in the flesh, too, of course; people objectify each other, people engage in acts that are demeaning, humiliating, loveless, mean, rude, alienating, etc. etc. etc; but, again, the thing about pornography is that it prevents us from confronting those negative acts in any way. It allows us to assume, in my mind wrongly, that objectification doesn't hurt us or the object. Pornography doesn't turn us all into monsters; it doesn't make us bad people; but it does contribute to a prevailing philosophy that there are occasions in which the objectification of others is acceptable. And, in my mind, it creates an illusion of community--of sharing an act with someone else (especially in the case of real-time chats and video cam sex)--when in reality we are in a void of community.

When some forum members try to make a case for CP as an act of prevention of "real" crimes, it brings me back to this insidious notion that viewing pornography that exploits real people is a victimless crime. If we a separated from the production, we see our consumption as passive and harmless, even though it funds the very acts we want to avoid committing in our own communities. The virtual world is a place where the consequences of our actions are invisible; and that's what makes it dangerous in my mind. I know you're not condoning CP of the variety I'm talking about in this instance, but the question remains in my mind; even if someone consents to being objectified, is the consumption of the their objectification ever truly good for us? Are there better alternatives?

Also, I get what you're saying about teens needing to explore their sexuality, and I think it's a disgrace that we've criminalized and demonized sex to such an intense degree that almost everyone is running around thinking there is something wrong with them. But I just don't see how the internet is a good place to explore our sexuality; am I denying the possibility that for some, using the internet as a tool fees like a positive way to express themselves? Not at all. I'm sure many on here would argue that they've got something good from using the internet in this way. But if the problem is a lack of healthy outlets for sexual expression, I don't think the solution is the internet.

To use a personal example, I enjoy the occasional rape/coercive fantasy. But I can't convince myself to watch violent pornography anymore because even though the violence is simulated, the values of those fantasies are being acted out on real people--and, in a way, I'd argue that there is a deeper kind of violence being enacted on a cultural level. And I know that these images, repeated millions of times over, impart lasting impressions to those who view it, and it leads to what Beholder describes in his post as a naturalization of sexual violence. It's so prevalent now to see women being brutalized in some form in even the most mainstream pornography that to young people who have indiscriminate access to these images the value is being imparted that this is what sex looks like. I don't mean that it makes people go out and rape other people; it just distorts our view of the norm. And this is just one example out of a million of how our ideas about sex and sexuality get warped by the distribution if impersonal images that don't relate to our real lives or real people we know in any way. Now we could say that the solution is to control the distribution of pornography, or make some rules about what is or is not acceptable to produce or watch, but we'd be overlooking the idea that pornography itself is founded on questionable values--most fundamentally, that the sale and consumption of human beings as objects to be used is "harmless." No doubt pornography is used in many different ways by many different people with different objectives; but I believe strongly that there is no good argument for its dissemination that outweighs the harm it does to us as social beings.

Objectification happens, and I get that; we look at strangers on the street, we see a photograph of someone, and we use these images of real people as fodder for fantasies later. We lust over film stars ad musicians. I'm not arguing that we can somehow eliminate this, or that it's even necessary that we do; but what I would argue is that technology, in this case the internet, magnifies the potential for objectification on an enormous scale. We can view on thousands of images in an hour; we can jerk off to 6 videos at once while chatting with a like-minded "friend" with our free hand. If we don't like this or that body part, facial expression, or piece of clothing, click, we can easily search for someone more to our tastes, without realizing that are tastes are being homogenized by these very images (I mean, when you watch 70's porn you wonder what the hell happened to pubic hair--did people just lose a taste for it en masse, of was the preference for hairlessness suggested to us?). We are what we eat; and what we put into our heads, especially when it's manufactured by a system that has no concern for our heads at all, matters in the end. It's not going to turn us all into soulless zombies, but it does affect how we see others, ourselves, and our sexuality.

Finally, what happened to our imaginations? Why can't we enjoy spinning ourselves a nice paraphilia-filled fantasy life? What ever did people do in the time before the internet?

In the larger sense, I get that we can separate our thoughts from our actions; hopefully, most of us are in charge of what we do. But I think we can't avoid being affected by what we do online, and that pornography's values bleed, however minimally, into our own. And it's the cumulative effects of that creeping that I'm concerned about. I think you're right in saying that these are issues that we decide together; pornography isn't private, although we like to believe that our consumption of it is. It isn't entirely up to us to decide how we use it; it can't help but use us a little bit, too, and it uses us in ways we aren't always aware of.

Thank again, revolutionex, for the great conversation starter!

here's a great article i read:

http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/07/three-r ... ng-decade/

it makes no sense to make the possession of child pornography illegal, and that article states many reasons why. but until science can establish that sexual contact can be harmless to children, and laws change to accommodate that while still ensuring the safety of children, i think the production of child pornography, and even the act of purchasing it and funding it, should remain illegal. even once those changes have taken place, the penalties for those who harm children for profit must be harsh, and i personally think the penalties for those who harm adults in the production of pornography must be high as well. both pornography and prostitution should be art forms, consisting of skilled performers, not last refuges for the desperate. as long as society continues to treat sexuality as shameful filth, the people involved with pornography and prostitution will be shamed and filthy, and will always be taken advantage of by profiteers. these things need to be elevated, sex needs to brought out of the gutter and given the respect it deserves as a beautiful expression of joy.

personally, i've never sought out pornography featuring real children, and don't enjoy pornography featuring real adults, because i can't enjoy anything sexually when it seems like the girls involved do not want to be there. i find that distressing.

The Beholder wrote:here's a great article i read:

http://falkvinge.net/2012/09/07/three-r ... ng-decade/

it makes no sense to make the possession of child pornography illegal, and that article states many reasons why. but until science can establish that sexual contact can be harmless to children, and laws change to accommodate that while still ensuring the safety of children, i think the production of child pornography, and even the act of purchasing it and funding it, should remain illegal. even once those changes have taken place, the penalties for those who harm children for profit must be harsh, and i personally think the penalties for those who harm adults in the production of pornography must be high as well. both pornography and prostitution should be art forms, consisting of skilled performers, not last refuges for the desperate. as long as society continues to treat sexuality as shameful filth, the people involved with pornography and prostitution will be shamed and filthy, and will always be taken advantage of by profiteers. these things need to be elevated, sex needs to brought out of the gutter and given the respect it deserves as a beautiful expression of joy.

personally, i've never sought out pornography featuring real children, and don't enjoy pornography featuring real adults, because i can't enjoy anything sexually when it seems like the girls involved do not want to be there. i find that distressing.

Are you saying child pornography should or should not be illegal?

i'm saying it should be legal, but we'd need to have a much wiser society for that to be possible. the society we have now isn't providing adequate protection for adult porn performers.

however, for the time being, there's still no way to justify the illegality of possessing it, only of producing it with real people.

where i live, child pornography is even illegal in the form of drawings and literature. that's utterly unjustifiable. that's not laws protecting people from being victimised, that's laws attempting to enforce a moral standard on people.

The Beholder wrote:i'm saying it should be legal, but we'd need to have a much wiser society for that to be possible. the society we have now isn't providing adequate protection for adult porn performers.

however, for the time being, there's still no way to justify the illegality of possessing it, only of producing it with real people.

where i live, child pornography is even illegal in the form of drawings and literature. that's utterly unjustifiable. that's not laws protecting people from being victimised, that's laws attempting to enforce a moral standard on people.

I couldn't disagree more. Child pornography should never be legalized. However, I think it should be legalized in the form of animation so long as no one's being harmed.

what would be wrong with it if everyone involved was consenting and safe, and society was wise enough to treat it with respect?

A child isn't capable of making a rational decision like that. A decision that could ruin their life.

what do you mean by "ruin their life"?