Omnipotence and Lying

by **ThisEndUp** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 3:53 am

Twistedmister wrote:Ahh.......your quotes.........

I was wondering why your reply was so short.............

LOL

I will read this later........: )

I know!!! I need a lesson in the quotes thing I still haven't figured it out yet....

Yes and No. (more contradiction)

I am a borderline. When i am black, there is no white. What the hell is white? When i am white, there is no black....what the hell is black?

When i am happy........i really can't understand that i ever felt sad. Like i felt sad....in some place 100 years ago........but when i'm sad, i really can't remember what it was like to be happy....

It's not as simple as that, of course.....but that's basically it.

More "fact" for you..........facts are only as factual as you FEEL they are.

Right right.......too many spaces. FKUC YOU _____________________ person who knows who they are. (actually 2 people who know who they are)

Real to your way of thinking or to mine? I think its interesting that while you say that my idea of TRUTH doesn't exist, you seem to be able to understand it very well. So when you tell me your trying to be more real .......whats that mean to you??

Both does and doesn't exist. Aswell as, both does and doesn't not exist.

But yes.......my being more real, means to me what it does to you.

What you mean by this?? How does the love and reality thing equate for you?

Real love............define real?
We went through this..........saying real love and real reality........it's just more complication. Saying you are looking for real love, or real reality....is saying you have found false love and false realities........that's jibberish to me.

.......what would imprison me would be to live in a world where there was no stable foundation , a world of contradictions. Not only would this world be like a prison but it would be frightening because nothing and no one would be safe, dependable, recognizable, or stable. It would not only be a prison but torture.

Excuse me, while i kill myself. LOL

But hey, this world would also be not like a prison.........LOL

You should post that in the BPD forum........

HA! I like your explanation of yardwork...................and yes, you are essentially correct.

A good and bad me and nothing else. I cannot "feel" anything else. It just feels empty, devoid of nature.....

Right now, i like you. We're having fun talking..........so you're good. A post or two ago, i can't remember which one, i stopped liking you. You wrote something i thought was stupid and suddenly i didn't like you. It devalued the whole experience i had with you earlier..........but now, i like you again.

The middle.........i can only "theorise" as to what that is and like. I can't really feel it..........it's like you nons, can't really understand our lack of empathy. You can imagine, what it would be like....be you can't feel it. So you think you understand, but then wonder how we can be mean......but if you understood, you wouldn't wonder.........

I really don't know what it's like, to be ok with someone. Or ok with myself........i can intellectually tell myself i am ok with me, i am ok with you.........but emotionally, i can't feel it. I love me, i love you. I despise me, i despise you.
My version of yardwork.....is understanding i don't love you or despise you, even though i feel basically those simple emotions.
I hate yardwork..........it is easier, especially since i am of a constant nature (not going anywhere, without me).........to not do the work.
With other people..........well it is important, that i figure out if they are worth my working to keep them around (understand how i feel about them)...........

You sure the whole *truth doesn't exist* thing is workin for you? lol

Yes. My life was far worse before.

How come I have everything over here that you want

Because you're delusional? LOL

You believe in a man in the sky watching you? I guess..........and true love???? Geez, yes i suppose if you think i want fairytales, then you have what i want.

True love...is what i wanted when i was disordered and unable to see that i was disordered.

Now i want, chicken wings and someone who won't disappear. (with nice breasts)

So yes, speaking of which........do you really have everything i want???? :wink:

you are telling me there is no truth and no love in your world?

There both is and isn't.

There is love........and there is truth. I just know, those things are not (like all things) absolute.

I am not asking you to do this, but I do want to ask if you wanted to believe in factual truth and in love the way I described it, could you?

Could i go back to a state, where i knew less about physics and biology and neuroscience? No, probably not.
It's like, could you go back and believe in santa claus?

something later about not wanting things to be difficult

Yeah....but not too easy either. LOL

I am also thinking now that control plays a big part in your world now? yes no? Control is a constant battle here too, however my battle is not to control others .....my battle is to learn NOT to. In fact my ultimate goal would be to control myself and no one else.

If you could control yourself.........you wouldn't need ultimate goals. You wouldn't need goals at all. :mrgreen:

I know what you are saying.........i'm just saying, i know more than what you are saying too! LOL

Yes that is a good goal. I too, am far more interested in controlling myself........sometimes. Sometimes, i laugh at my life and enjoy how messed up it is.

I have to say the more you talk the more I understand

Good. Not everyone is capable of understanding.

you do no weeding so yes its very confusing. You keep it all the good and the bad and you keep shifting....except for here in your writing you are just laying it all out on the table. However you don't seem to know what to actually do with all of it or how to sort it out. Yes no???

A lot of the time......most of the time, it is sorted out. I love my life. Tortured/confused as it may be/seem to others.......it's not to me. I understand, this is who i am.

I want the things i want.........i also don't want them. They are important to me.....but they are also of little importance.
Generally i'm pretty good at exercising when things are or are not important to me.........or perhaps i am bad at it?
Work is more important when i'm not doing it!!! LOL..........When i am, i see how it's not so important!

Perhaps, love is the same? Girls..........when i want someone, they are super interesting.....then when i have someone, they become far less interesting.

To me if you weeded and chose who you wanted to be, threw the rest out, then it seems you would know yourself better......but thats just my opinion

Yes often i make the mistake, of valuing one aspect of who i am....over another. Whether it's feeling bad i am so good.......(vulnerable)........or feeling good i am so bad.......(free)..........i make the mistake that i need to be more or less of either.

If i do pick some ideal i need to achieve, then i am doing so in order to fulfill only that ideal. I often do pick ideals i wish to live upto.........but realise they are hollow and become bored or realise they are not going to satisfy me, and don't put in the effort.

I do know myself better..........i know myself enough, to not craft one ideal self to live upto. That would be very limiting and i would die of boredom.
Of course......part of that, is that i would also LOVE IT..........HAHAHHAHA

I suppose, if you take your pain too seriously.........it hurts more. And without pain, life is boring. I'm trying to perfect how to get the right amount of control, over pain...........

A few years ago........i went too far, and was unable to feel sadness for 2 months. It was a very weird experience for a borderline.......for anyone, really...........but for 2 months i was one consistent person and that person, was basically "enlightened".......
It was weird, for 2 months i had no BPD or HPD........(no as in very little, so little infact i couldn't feel sad or longing or anything).......

It was at first, total bliss. TOTAL BLISS..........then it got boring. Really boring........everyday, all day....i felt only happiness. I literally forgot what emotional pain felt like........i tried to make myself sad, i remembered exes that didn't want me, dogs that had died........nothing worked. I couldn't feel sad..........any sad thoughts, negative ideas that came in my head, just sort of vanished....like reverse OCD.
Basically my mind was CBT on steroids..........anything bad, was turned into good in a blink of an eye.......the entire world, everything i saw/thought/that happened, became a self-reinforcing machine for happiness........

I guess the only negative emotion i had, was wanting more control. I wanted to feel sad and empty...just for a bit. I was getting annoyed i couldn't.......it was a game i guess. I just wanted to make myself sad.....(sounds crazy i am sure)...........
Anyways.......nothing worked. I knew what would.....

I started smoking and doing drugs again.........took about 3 days, then i was depressed and sad and my disorders were hurting me again.
I enjoyed being sad........for about a week.........then i wanted to go back. But i never tried. And still really don't.........i sometimes go back, for moments or on very good days...minutes......if i concentrate, i can.........but it seems, not as important.

I almost look at it like an insurance policy.........if things ever get too rough here, i can go back to being "enlightened". LOL (that's a joke, cause everyone is always enlightened....a bit of Zen humour)

So yes......control.

What do you think serves you? And what do you mean by that? Do you mean serving you as in your best interests?

Yes.

Like i was saying.........i basically achieved inner peace for 2 months, and threw it away cause it served me to do so. (at that moment, i wanted to feel turmoil)

I mean you think about the long term and what really serves your own best interests or do you think about the right now and what you feel like doing instead?

Well i think i answered that! I threw away inner peace, to feel lost and hopeless!

Yes.....i have severe issues with object constantcy. I really don't understand the whole idea of tomorrow. I don't feel it........i get it in my mind, but i don't feel it.
It's like......yes the future, time will pass..........but yet, everyday........i basically do as little as possible to get by.
And proclaim, that tomorrow i will work harder.

What you do effects how we interact....but your value never changes

Yes, i agree.

Did you miss that part where i wrote: "i don't really think that"..........

You must make a distinction between what i think, and what i feel.

Thank you for that post!

Thank you.

by **ThisEndUp** » Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:40 pm

Twistedmister wrote:Ok........time to sort through this mess. LOL

But yes.......my being more real, means to me what it does to you.

When you say this the one thing I think I understand is that living your PERSONAL TRUTH is important to you. Which is the same as it is for me. Basically I would define that as showing yourself more fully to others, all of you( good and bad parts). So now next time you are in bed and not in love with the entire girl I hope you think of me and tell the girl you only love her boobs LOL!!!

Real love............define real?
We went through this..........saying real love and real reality........it's just more complication. Saying you are looking for real love, or real reality....is saying you have found false love and false realities........that's jibberish to me.

I guess I was asking which version of love you were aspiring to have in your life. Being loved unconditionally, meaning you are accepted completely with your faults and all, or the worship type love you expressed earlier, meaning you are loved more in the moment and being praised and admired for what you do. Its interesting but it just occurred to me when writing that, that unconditional love , at least in my mind, would be more long lasting and constant because a person would, or technically should know, that even while they are behaving badly that at their core they are good and the relationship is good. Whereas praise and admiration only really come from doing stuff which brings about praise and admiration so to get it, I guess you'd have to be what others considered good all the time. That is impossible. Because no one is perfect so I understand now more what you meant before when you said your love doesn't exist and how disappointing that would be. Praise and admiration to me are not love at all because I could show them to anyone and not mean them. In other words I could be manipulating them or they me. So for me praise and admiration are not the things I value most in a relationship. I value and recognize or evaluate the love in a relationship based on what happens during bad times. Its easy for someone to stick around during the good, but when things go wrong that is the true test of love for me.

.......what would imprison me would be to live in a world where there was no stable foundation , a world of contradictions. Not only would this world be like a prison but it would be frightening because nothing and no one would be safe, dependable, recognizable, or stable. It would not only be a prison but torture.

Excuse me, while i kill myself. LOL

But hey, this world would also be not like a prison.........LOL

You should post that in the BPD forum........

lol yes I am understanding that that world would sometimes not be like a prison, except that I have object constancy ...............so I would know that eventually something aweful was gonna happen, and it would come out of nowhere and completely shatter the good. Also I would not be able to trust anyone, and so be alone basically during the bad times when I would need people the most.
That is more why its so horrible to me.
In my life a disruptive event can happen, but my view of people never changes so things in that regard stay predictable. The people also never change because I weed them out too, like I weed the good and bad from the middle zone. I keep the constant people in my life and let the rest go. Not because I don't like them or whatever. I don't judge them and what they do with their lives. But because they are not right for me, not good for me. My focus is always on what is good for me and to not control others ( to let them be who they are). I know I can't change them. But if they have a pattern of behavior which assaults my values then I have to let them go.

Everyone offends someone else sometimes but, and here is where the empathy thing becomes important, if our values don't match then they will continue to offend me. ( though if they have no empathy they won't know that) When our values DO match or at least our primary values, then neither one of us will be offended by each other much ,and life is more peaceful, consistent, and level.....or in the middle zone. It seems like in your world, if you were on the negative side your behavior would be very offensive to the values of others. Not because you necessarily want to be offensive or because they do not like you ( they might like you very much) but because of the lack of empathy and a middle zone. So lets say you believe its in your best interest to do drugs for that feeling you want, but we are in a relationship. And lets imagine your drug thing brings certain things into my life; the potential for being arrested would be a big one because the drugs would be in our home. Well I am looking out for my best interests too and being arrested could ruin my whole life. Me thinking ahead here! lol. This is offensive to me, because your behavior is putting my entire life/future in jeopardy. If you claimed to love me ( LOL and now everytime I think of this I am gonna laugh) then I certainly would question it. How can you love someone and put them in such a position? In your mind I think your good side would agree ( yes/no?) but as you say.....that side is out of the picture, and with no middle........ you sortof force my hand. Also I think if you are on the bad side and serving your own interest of wanting to feel sad then I would be assaulting your values ( with my nagging about the drugs bein in the house LOL) and that would make you mad at me and you wouldn't like me at all anyway. I think I can say more about this later in the post....

HA! I like your explanation of yardwork...................and yes, you are essentially correct.

A good and bad me and nothing else. I cannot "feel" anything else. It just feels empty, devoid of nature.....

Right now, i like you. We're having fun talking..........so you're good. A post or two ago, i can't remember which one, i stopped liking you. You wrote something i thought was stupid and suddenly i didn't like you. It devalued the whole experience i had with you earlier..........but now, i like you again.

I think this has to do with enmeshment.
To me , you and I are always separate.
What you say, feel, and do has nothing to do with me, ever.
I have no control over you and what you think, feel, or believe.
Those things are all under your control, your choice.
So when you say things to me which, I may not understand or feel to be true, I never think that I don't like you, because those things are not about me, they are your things. They are about you.

I know and respect that they are your reality and what is important to you.
I accept that and I accept you.

In my mind people are not all good or all bad.....their ACTIONS are always some of both. However the people themselves are ALWAYS good. And I am always good. So its almost impossible for me to see you in any other way.

However, having been with an N....I come close to thinking someone was pure evil when the bad side was out.
All bad is all bad if its all bad. lol
And when you cannot access the good in those times at all, then the other person is left to deal with only bad things. With no empathy some of what is received by the other person is devastating. Its not just like ouch I stubbed my toe bad.
Remember I told you I have the good, the bad, and the middle side? The middle is me. ALL of me. The good part is like a life plan or IDEAL and the bad side is like a reference/wastedump. LOL
The middle is the place from where I operate.
That is also the place which is assaulted by others.
So when you are on your bad side and assaulting me.......if you have no empathy your bad side will do things I would never do! So in my mind you are not just assaulting my bad side or my bad actions.....you are assaulting me, both the good and the bad. ALL of me. If the assault feels strong enough, then my understanding is you want to kill me( either in the literal or figurative sense).
Why would I want that?
I must protect me first, otherwise I do not exist.
And when pushed to this extreme I am going to choose me over you.

Your bad side seems to have no filters.
In the middle I have filters when I deal with others. I also see them and understand what it would be like to be in their shoes. And I never want to hurt them, even when I know something I say might. Sometimes its necessary to say things that create a sort of conflict. But the idea is really to make the relationship better, not to destroy it.
I also know I love them even if I am mad at them. I see them as essentially good but behaving badly so I temper my response to them in a way that doesn't hurt them to the core. I try to address the behavior not the person.
I also know if I unleashed the full load of my bad on them, it would only be if I wanted to kill them in some way. However since I never see them as all bad.....I never want to kill them. In fact underneith it all I consider them all good. Like I do me. lol The middle me. Hope this makes sense.

The middle.........i can only "theorise" as to what that is and like. I can't really feel it..........it's like you nons, can't really understand our lack of empathy. You can imagine, what it would be like....be you can't feel it. So you think you understand, but then wonder how we can be mean......but if you understood, you wouldn't wonder.........

I think I understand it very well. What I can not do is FEEL it. I cannot FEEL that another person can be ALL BAD. I can't feel that because I can't see myself as all bad. Even when I am behaving badly I am not BAD. So I can't see someone else that way either. As I mentioned above. Even when I am on the receiving end of this. My very last refuge would never be to kill the other person. It would be to get the hell away from them. But I am thinking that on the bad side.....killing someone else would be a very real option to consider.

I really don't know what it's like, to be ok with someone. Or ok with myself........i can intellectually tell myself i am ok with me, i am ok with you.........but emotionally, i can't feel it. I love me, i love you. I despise me, i despise you.
My version of yardwork.....is understanding i don't love you or despise you, even though i feel basically those simple emotions.
I hate yardwork..........it is easier, especially since i am of a constant nature (not going anywhere, without me).........to not do the work.
With other people..........well it is important, that i figure out if they are worth my working to keep them around (understand how i feel about them)...........

You see the middle as work. I see the middle as creation. For me the middle is a work of art. The art of me. I can be anything I want. I can do anything I want. I am in control of it all. For me the middle is FREEDOM. Not the freedom to do anything I want, although it could be that if I so choose, but the freedom to create this masterpiece which is solely unique and solely mine. I make all the rules and I live them. The only thing about the middle which one might consider confining is the foundation. That TRUTH thing. Only to me its not confining at all because its so old and so solid that to get rid of it would be like blowing up the pyramids or destroying the earth or the sun. If an earthquake comes......I know my foundation is gonna be around. The artwork of me is like a tall building.......I am working up. So the top is less stable because of all the work going on ( artwork LOL) but once the level is complete its done and it can't come down. I always follow the truth rules because they are stable. If I were in your world it would be like this.....I put a brick on the foundation, then I knock it off. I put another brick on, then I knock it off. I would never have a creation.......never build anything. I would always have the bricks and the tools to apply them, but never a foundation on which to keep going up.

You sure the whole *truth doesn't exist* thing is workin for you? lol

Yes. My life was far worse before.

How come I have everything over here that you want

Because you're delusional? LOL

LOL but you need to see it from my side. I see you with all the tools and all the bricks. All the same stuff I have to work with. You said you had a goal: the love thing. Is my goal too. But then you say to me.....I can't have my goal. I will never have it. For me- I keep getting closer to it. And by the way unconditional love as a goal is not just about me. I want it for me, but I also want to be able to give it. Thats why another goal is to be uncontrolling of others while at the same time learning to control me. The more I learn to control me.....the better I am at building the middle and the less controlling of others I become. The more I work on me, the more I give to others. Giving becomes as gratifying as receiving. Others are always a part of my middle. And this may be the only place where I think exactly like you do LOL Others are and are not a part of me! We are connected in our goodness, but nowhere else.

You believe in a man in the sky watching you? I guess..........and true love???? Geez, yes i suppose if you think i want fairytales, then you have what i want.

Yet you believe in powers in the universe? What are those? Are they thinking and feeling powers or not? Or is it only a force of destruction? The power I believe in is a creative thing. It makes stuff. I think its funny for you to call it a fairytale when the evidence is all around. Stuff is here. Pretty awesome looking stuff, pretty artful and incredibly complex stuff. You talked about the scientists, ect. and all this........and use them as folks who want to prove my beliefs wrong. Well.....I do know not all scientists don't believe in God. I also think science is very factually based in truth. So its kindof funny you want to discredit my world by using something that would in some ways be the very basis of my world. Factual truth is often covered by layers of opinion or peoples personal truths....and when you are talking science ect.....those layers become deeper and deeper and the opinions which are piled onto them need to be sifted through. The scientists are , in the end, only human, and subject to their personal truths to some degree. What was considered absolutely irrefutable science at one time is now bogus. And I think it will always be so. To me the world is like my middle. It has a very strong and very old foundation. For man to get to the root of it in one lifetime or even a million lifetimes is just funny to me. I am in the medical field. And oh my god what they were certain of at one time. Which now turns out to be just quackery. So I have little faith in men. I have faith in what I see. And the creation is here. All around. I am not looking for something thats not here. I know it seems that way to you. I am not looking for a man in the sky. Thats really just an analogy of sorts, but to me God is much more complex. Instead I am paying attention to what IS around, the evidence of creation.......how it works......how it operates. Like Spring,summer, fall and winter......to me that is creation in motion, but it is also an analogy of the lifecycle of a person. We are born, we grow, we create, we die....... how is it that the seasons are exactly like the lifecycle of a man? How strange no? Maybe someone is trying to talk to us. I just happened to be listening. LOL And if its fantasy to you thats ok. But I gotta tell you......I have never known the seasons to be a thing which didn't happen. To me they would be a FACTUAL TRUTH. At least somewhere in the world....

True love...is what i wanted when i was disordered and unable to see that i was disordered.

Now i want, chicken wings and someone who won't disappear. (with nice breasts)

So yes, speaking of which........do you really have everything i want????

No. I want you to have what you want in life. Do you? I want everyone to be healed and whole and to have what they want. Do they? But these things are not up to me. I have no control over them. I have to give that up and that is probably the only sadness in my life. To see the pain or torment of others and to be able to do nothing about it. I have to trust instead in the creative power to be bigger then me, smarter then me, to know the grand plan better then me. I believe I am part of that plan and so are you. If we weren't, we wouldn't be here. I am aware that all I know will never be enough. Me and you, this place, and all these people.......they are just someone elses bricks on their foundation. And I just have to trust that the master builder is bigger, better, and smarter then me.

you are telling me there is no truth and no love in your world?

There both is and isn't.

There is love........and there is truth. I just know, those things are not (like all things) absolute.

If something is not absolute....then how can it exist at all? Or if it exists for a time.....then eventually it won't exist.

I am not asking you to do this, but I do want to ask if you wanted to believe in factual truth and in love the way I described it, could you?

Could i go back to a state, where i knew less about physics and biology and neuroscience? No, probably not.
It's like, could you go back and believe in santa claus?

I think I addessed this above. We have different foundations so I can see and understand why you say this.

something later about not wanting things to be difficult

Yeah....but not too easy either. LOL

The thing about my life ....or being in the middle which is most difficult is letting go of people if I have to because that often means confronting something which is not working for me. Like confronting an alcoholic in my life and having to change things around so that I can work on me. They are part of the big creation, but they are not part of the creation of me except that the experience of them goes into the reference pile on the bad side, while at the same time, they stay in the middle at the place I told you where they are both a part of me and not a part of me LOL

I am also thinking now that control plays a big part in your world now? yes no? Control is a constant battle here too, however my battle is not to control others .....my battle is to learn NOT to. In fact my ultimate goal would be to control myself and no one else.

If you could control yourself.........you wouldn't need ultimate goals. You wouldn't need goals at all.

When I say control myself I mean my actions. Other people are always in my life. Other people are always, or should always be looking out for themselves. I should be looking out for myself. There is a place where people meet.
In the middle LOL

There is them, me, and US.
The middle has to me mutual. There has to be common ground there.
But at the same time I have to be separate.
To remain separate and be in the middle at the same time means I focus on my needs and what they need from me.
I have foundation rules.
These are things I need to survive. Which might be to not lie, not steal, not sleep with my best friends hub. Those rules can never change.
So when I say control me I mean control my behavior with respect to my rules.
I need to follow my own rules in order to feel good about myself.
Anyone in my life currently has to respect my foundation rules absolutely.
But I also have other rules.....these are things I WANT but don't need to survive.
like....... I like to watch TV in bed. Now if someone else doesn't have this rule.....we have conflict.......then I weigh things.......
I always put them on top of one of the personal preference rules to a degree.
This is where I am willing to compromise and if I like them enough I might give up a rule altogether. Sometimes we can just keep our want rules separate.
We have to agree there or agree to disagree there.
In my middle I am not controlling them and what they do or say or think or feel.
In the middle I am trying to control myself by keeping to my rules.
At the same time I am trying to not FORCE my rules onto them.
In other words if one of my rules were that I don't think people should smoke. But a good friend smokes. I control myself by not harping on her about smoking. Its my rule not hers, why should she have to follow it?
And I control myself by not smoking if she tries to influence me to smoke.
Its all about whats best for me. Protecting myself by not smoking is good.
Protecting my relationship with her by not trying to tell her how to run her life, by accepting her as she is is good for me too. Good for both of us actually.
I respect her enough to let her run her own life. To know what is best for her even if I may not agree. She knows herself better then I do, so I am in no position to be trying to run her life.
A LOT of people do not do that. Controlling themselves is a big issue in that way. They focus on controlling others....which means they are not controlling themselves at all.
If I have to focus on someone else by telling them how to run their life.....then I can't focus on me, therefore I am not controlling me at all.

I want the things i want.........i also don't want them. They are important to me.....but they are also of little importance.
Generally i'm pretty good at exercising when things are or are not important to me.........or perhaps i am bad at it?
Work is more important when i'm not doing it!!! LOL..........When i am, i see how it's not so important!

Perhaps, love is the same? Girls..........when i want someone, they are super interesting.....then when i have someone, they become far less interesting.

It would seem to me that with another person in your life though.....that its possible you might discard them before actually getting to really know them. People are so complex. If u see someones bad side only when you are experiencing your own. Then you are depriving yourself of their good side/badside/middle. The middle is the masterpiece. If you don't have your own......then you can't see theirs I guess. The middle is the complex part of them composed of good and bad ,and actually more importantly, the bad in the middle is transformed. This transformation of bad into good is quite miraculous and artsy in itself. Its like they have created something out of nothing because something bad is usually deemed worthless or as having no redeeming value. Creating something out of nothing is pretty awesome......maybe thats how the universe was formed? :!:

To me if you weeded and chose who you wanted to be, threw the rest out, then it seems you would know yourself better......but thats just my opinion

Yes often i make the mistake, of valuing one aspect of who i am....over another. Whether it's feeling bad i am so good.......(vulnerable)........or feeling good i am so bad.......(free)..........i make the mistake that i need to be more or less of either.

I feel creative and giving when I am good and vulnerable when I am bad. I feel FREE when I am accepted by someone else completely ( when they are aware of my good and bad and love me anyway.)

If i do pick some ideal i need to achieve, then i am doing so in order to fulfill only that ideal. I often do pick ideals i wish to live upto.........but realise they are hollow and become bored or realise they are not going to satisfy me, and don't put in the effort.

This looks like the removing bricks thing I talked about before.

I do know myself better..........i know myself enough, to not craft one ideal self to live upto. That would be very limiting and i would die of boredom.
Of course......part of that, is that i would also LOVE IT..........HAHAHHAHA

I explained that my ideal self is more of an artwork to me.....a creation. Because of that I never feel like I am a slave to it. Its fun, its inventive, its unusual, its unique,its complex in some places, and very simple in others. Its always changing in some ways and always the same in others ( foundation) Sometimes I have to think outside the box, sometimes not. But its the biggest and best thing I ever made in my life. And I made it all by myself. Its mine .....so I like it alot. LOL

I suppose, if you take your pain too seriously.........it hurts more. And without pain, life is boring. I'm trying to perfect how to get the right amount of control, over pain...........

I do not ever SEEK to feel pain. I avoid it if I can. Things are always going to happen that will create pain. But I am never looking for it.
The only place I like pain is in the bedroom LOL :wink:

and even there ya know......I don't really want to be hurt I want to be vulnerable and loved.
REAL pain I don't want anything to do with though.

A few years ago........i went too far, and was unable to feel sadness for 2 months. It was a very weird experience for a borderline.......for anyone, really...........but for 2 months i was one consistent person and that person, was basically "enlightened".......
It was weird, for 2 months i had no BPD or HPD........(no as in very little, so little infact i couldn't feel sad or longing or anything).......

It was at first, total bliss. TOTAL BLISS..........then it got boring. Really boring........everyday, all day....i felt only happiness. I literally forgot what emotional pain felt like........i tried to make myself sad, i remembered exes that didn't want me, dogs that had died........nothing worked. I couldn't feel sad..........any sad thoughts, negative ideas that came in my head, just sort of vanished....like reverse OCD.
Basically my mind was CBT on steroids..........anything bad, was turned into good in a blink of an eye.......the entire world, everything i saw/thought/that happened, became a self-reinforcing machine for happiness........

Whats it like to feel bored? I am bored sometimes but also, in the middle so I know I have the choice to create and do anything I want.
I would not go in search of pain though....but probably a new experience or to learn something new. People are always a source of fascination to me because they are so complex. I can read about any one person and be completely engrossed. Or I can visit someone and be engrossed. And with people .....you never know what you are gonna get. Their lives are always different and unique. And since there are a lot of people out there......I can always be occupied.

I guess the only negative emotion i had, was wanting more control. I wanted to feel sad and empty...just for a bit. I was getting annoyed i couldn't.......it was a game i guess. I just wanted to make myself sad.....(sounds crazy i am sure)...........
Anyways.......nothing worked. I knew what would.....

I started smoking and doing drugs again.........took about 3 days, then i was depressed and sad and my disorders were hurting me again.
I enjoyed being sad........for about a week.........then i wanted to go back. But i never tried. And still really don't.........i sometimes go back, for moments or on very good days...minutes......if i concentrate, i can.........but it seems, not as important.

I almost look at it like an insurance policy.........if things ever get too rough here, i can go back to being "enlightened". LOL (that's a joke, cause everyone is always enlightened....a bit of Zen humour)

LOL
Could it be that when you were enlightened you just didn't know what to do with yourself?
It sounds like an unfamiliar place to you.....
I mean if its something you never experienced for any length of time before, maybe you just needed to follow someone , or look for someone who could have helped you to know what to do with it? With no empathy you would, in a sense, always be alone. So even in the good place........being alone is lonely. Maybe you were not bored....maybe lonely?
Not lonely in the sense of not having people around, but maybe you just didn't know how to connect and go to a different level. People are so complex and levels are deep. Is that a possibility???
One thing I notice in your writing is that your feelings are always very constant: good,bad, or bored. Yet there are so many other feelings...... You did mention you felt vulnerable sometimes but again, I was not sure if it was the same way I feel vulnerable. I like that feeling very much. Its about having the good and bad together and then being loved anyway. I could live in that feeling forever and it would be my bliss.

So yes......control.

What do you think serves you? And what do you mean by that? Do you mean serving you as in your best interests?

Yes.

Like i was saying.........i basically achieved inner peace for 2 months, and threw it away cause it served me to do so. (at that moment, i wanted to feel turmoil)

I mean you think about the long term and what really serves your own best interests or do you think about the right now and what you feel like doing instead?

Well i think i answered that! I threw away inner peace, to feel lost and hopeless!

Growing up I was very depressed. Grew into adulthood that way. Eventually I overcame it. But in order to overcome it I had to understand why I liked it. For me its not that I liked FEELING depressed and the pain of that.
It was the only thing I knew.
It was more a bad habit.
Once I wasn't depressed I didn't know what to do with myself for a time.
However, I realised for me.... that other people can be mentors.
So I looked around for happy people, people who were interesting, or who were accomplished at something; or people who had something I wanted to have or to be like.
I would just go and ask them....Hey you have this quality I like. I would like to feel that or experience that. Can you show me or tell me how???
They did....were happy to, and thats how I filled in the boredom.
I feel like this.....
There are things I do very well. Might even call me an expert in some areas of life. But there are some things I am clueless about. I am not talking about jobs. I am talking about ways of being.
So I go to someone who seems to have what I want and ask them: What do you tell yourself ?
What is your self talk and how does it get you where you want to go?
Self talk is what motivates us.
If you can change your thoughts you can change your life. I believe that VERY much because its what I experienced with the depression.
I have to admit at first it felt weird. Like being on the moon.
I was having to tell myself things I didn't even really believe and I had to do things I never would have done, but the more I did the easier it became.

Yes.....i have severe issues with object constantcy. I really don't understand the whole idea of tomorrow. I don't feel it........i get it in my mind, but i don't feel it.
It's like......yes the future, time will pass..........but yet, everyday........i basically do as little as possible to get by.
And proclaim, that tomorrow i will work harder.

It would seem in your world that with no foundation you have nothing to look back on either. In my creation of self, I can look back and see what I have done. The creating something out of nothing is big there! Its a big incentive to keep going on and creating. It pushes me ahead.

Did you miss that part where i wrote: "i don't really think that"..........

You must make a distinction between what i think, and what i feel.

I will go back and read that now. Thank you so much for talking to me. I really enjoy it.

Thank you.[/quote]

by **Twistedmister** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:25 am

Yes, this is fun.

Its easy for someone to stick around during the good, but when things go wrong that is the true test of love for me.

Yes, well we PDs often manufacture bad times. I agree with you of course, and so does my subconscious.......however the difference is, we with PDs generally can't ever get enough reassurance.
It's like even if i was just a head in a jar and someone stuck with me.........i'd think "yeah, but if i had only one eye".......

(i wouldn't think that.......but i would be tempted to)

Yes i agree........being worshipped, is not a good aim. And of course, once the worshipping is done (whatever you are worshipped for) then you have very little.
We all want someone to love us for who we are..........but we just don't believe it is possible. Atleast, never enough.....to be comfortable and perhaps even functional in a relationship. (some of us)

It really is........conditioning. I may want to believe we are independent and you are you and I am me.........but my conditioning, has always been that i have to control you because i have to fear you, because you will hurt me.
In your equation..........hurt is possible. Or far off if it is understood as inevitable............in mine, hurt is always just right around the corner. The safer i am, the more sure i am something is about to happen.

It's not on a conscious level...........it's my mind's response, to terror. I grew up in terror i guess?

So as a result........the OMNIPOTENCE factor comes in........my mind, needs to see itself as omnipotent, as that was its only defence. It's the only defence, it believes in.......the only one possible.
Now, of course.......it was forced to learn over and over, it does not have special powers and the world doesn't revolve around it...........but that's just speculation as far as my subconscious is concerned.
Kind of like..........if you were at war, and "heard' there was a treaty.......you wouldn't run out and shake the hand of the enemy......the cost of being wrong would be too high.
Well that's my subconscious.........all this "love" and "non-enmeshment" stuff..........is just theory.

So yes........i agree, that it is a poor way to see things from a romantic perspective..........however, the eyes i have are the eyes i have.
I know other people, believe they do love and are loved..........but i don't, and perhaps can't.

So "worship" was the only avenue..........and now that i see that that is not possible, nor a solution.....i am free. But free, is just a prison with a new name.

except that I have object constancy

can i borrow it?

I will trade you my lack of empathy......for your object constancy. It's a fair deal! Come on, take it! :twisted:

I should mention..........if you are arguing, that not being disordered works better for living life the way we are taught we should.....than, umm......i can't argue that! lol

So yes, i get that all the things that allow you to love and be loved and have a sense of self.........all help you in various ways.
LOL

In my mind people are not all good or all bad.....their ACTIONS are always some of both. However the people themselves are ALWAYS good. And I am always good. So its almost impossible for me to see you in any other way.

That sounds like it would be nice. I experienced that, for a short time as i was saying........and for the most part it was.

Remember I told you I have the good, the bad, and the middle side? The middle is me. ALL of me. The good part is like a life plan or IDEAL and the bad side is like a reference/wastedump. LOL
The middle is the place from where I operate.

That is good.

But that would never work from me.

The middle, is where i feel fake. Like i am lying........but not sure what the lie is.

I like the idea, of dismissing the bad as waste......the good as something to strive for and the middle as real or authentic......

It reminds me of a story..........i'll paraphrase........

".... A person once told me about a get together he was going to attend..........,everynight this man throws a party at his house...........people come from all around, and line up to speak to him........he has a few drinks and tells you all the worst things about yourself. He tells you in all the ways you are ugly and in all the ways you are a failure and in all the ways you are worthless....he makes you believe it............then the man, has a few more drinks..........and tells you in all the ways you are smart and attractive and how you have purpose and are a worthwhile to this world, he makes you believe in all the good things about you.........

I asked him then, why are you going? If he says such bad things about you?

"because, the bad things are just stuff he says when he is drunk"

.....I never want to kill them. In fact underneith it all I consider them all good. Like I do me. lol The middle me. Hope this makes sense.

It makes sense. You have multiple personality disorder......the bad you, the middle you that is real and the good you! I hope when you go out to eat, the other two chip in! LOL

Yes of course, i get what you are saying.............but it does have drawbacks.

The middle is the place from where I operate.
That is also the place which is assaulted by others.
So when you are on your bad side and assaulting me.......if you have no empathy your bad side will do things I would never do! So in my mind you are not just assaulting my bad side or my bad actions.....you are assaulting me, both the good and the bad. ALL of me. If the assault feels strong enough, then my understanding is you want to kill me( either in the literal or figurative sense).
Why would I want that?
I must protect me first, otherwise I do not exist.
And when pushed to this extreme I am going to choose me over you.

Your bad side seems to have no filters.

It seems..........we just have different versions of what is an assualt.

It's not that i have no filters........it's just that they have bigger spaces inbetween the screens.

It's funny..................this is what we don't get. Us PDs.............that there is this "real" you, and everything else is less real.
Yelled at your husband? Well that wasn't you.....that was just a moment. Got drunk and ran over 10 kids.....well you were drunk, that wasn't you.
Got married and swore you would be there forever.....well you were young, that wasn't you.

This "you" always seems to be on the right side of everything. Anything it did wrong, was the bad you or the foolish you or the uninformed you..........but the real you, just like the real everyone else......is always on the right side of things.

It's good work, if you can get it!

It's why.........none of the nons on here, give my argument about their lack of charity work or their meat eating or any of the things they do, that hurt others ..............any concern. They just laugh at me........"i would never hurt anyone".........as they eat their chicken and eggs, and drive their suvs and go to work for the insurance company or the gas company or coca-cola or whoever else.....and however else, they make a profit off the backs of others.
It's why, everyone turns the channel on those 3rd world starving commercials or the commercials with animals in cages........and thinks, "i didn't put them there" or "that kid isn't hungry cause of me" and then is totally fine with themselves and doesn't even question their "goodness" not even a tiny bit.

Like i said........it's good work if you can get it.

You see the middle as work. I see the middle as creation. For me the middle is a work of art. The art of me. I can be anything I want. I can do anything I want. I am in control of it all.

me too!

I think the same.........

who is more in control? The guy who doesn't believe in reality? LOL or the person who insists on FACTUAL FACTS!!! LOL

But yes.......the middle is work. Cause i've got to invent it. It's not there........i have to invent it, and then stick to it........and then follow it without question?
It's like.....making up an imaginary world, with imaginary morals..........and then trying to live your REAL life by them. Because they are IMPORTANT.

Yes...it is work.

If i can be anything.........then i don't need to be anything. I am allowed to be nothing. I am allowed to be ok with being nothing.
I am allowed, to be totally happy with nothing.
And furthermore, i don't need to be totally happy........or happy at all.

Creation........is good. Not needing to create, is better. And not needing to create, doesn't need to be better......it does not need, to be anything.

For me the middle is FREEDOM. Not the freedom to do anything I want, although it could be that if I so choose, but the freedom to create this masterpiece which is solely unique and solely mine

But the angry you........or the bad you, and the ideal you...........what about their masterpieces?

There masterpieces do not matter, because they aren't real????

LOL........which is where you FACTUAL FACTS and REAL REALITY come in........

Because it is so important for you........that the bad you, and the ideal you.....not be real. And the real you, to destroy them.....the middle you, to destroy their authenticity....to create its own.

LOL.........This is what we HPDs do. We suck the emotions of other people, to make our emotions more real.
You do the same.........but you don't allow yourself to see it that way. You don't even allow yourself to see it that way, when you do it to yourself.........

It's fascinating you NONS..........i mean, there should be a disorder called : RPD........regular people disorder. Because clearly, you are as F(((UCKED up.

I make all the rules and I live them

Not the rules about facts and reality though. ; )

The only thing about the middle which one might consider confining is the foundation. That TRUTH thing. Only to me its not confining at all because its so old and so solid that to get rid of it would be like blowing up the pyramids or destroying the earth or the sun

Yes....solid. a.k.a. Mommy and daddy hugged you, and you believed you could do no wrong. Solid.

(not you specifically)

But now, later in life............you ascribe some sort of PERFECTION or SOLIDness to other things......mainly middle you, and real love and real facts............but that's all based, on the solidness you experienced first.
The subconcious reinforces the FEELING that things are solid.

Whereas mine, reinforces the idea that they are not.

You talk about the sun being solid or the earth or the pyramids............and i don't see how any of those things are anymore or less solid then the flickering lights that make up the LCD screen that i am typing this on.

THe sun is around what 10 billion years? (total life span i mean when it finally burns out?)

While the life span of the light i appear to see, from the flicker of the LCD screen, in one particular pixel in one particular moment...........is what .005 seconds? Less, more......either way.......it's not even perceptible to the human eye.
Is that what makes it less important? Less solid?

It's built of the same stuff........it came about the same way............is it's mass what matters? it's volume? The distance it travels? The job it does?

If an earthquake comes......I know my foundation is gonna be around. The artwork of me is like a tall building.......I am working up. So the top is less stable because of all the work going on ( artwork LOL) but once the level is complete its done and it can't come down. I always follow the truth rules because they are stable. If I were in your world it would be like this.....I put a brick on the foundation, then I knock it off. I put another brick on, then I knock it off. I would never have a creation.......never build anything

Yes that is true............if things had to be tall, in order to exist.

Had to be solid, in order to matter.

But then , there would be so many things........so many many many things, you would walk by and miss, not experience.......not let be "real" and would dismiss as imaginary..........that you would never get to enjoy.
Not the way i enjoy them...........

Drama....excitement........terror..........these things, would not exist in a very large quantity.

I would always have the bricks and the tools to apply them, but never a foundation on which to keep going up.

And what is up?

How high, is high enough?

And.......when you are high enough, how will you know? won't there always be more up?

And what happens, if you climb so high.....you can't get higher? What happens, if you can't climb anymore? What if you slide down and can see that where you were....you can never get back to?

If as you are saying..........one brick is not important. But 200000 bricks are........what happens, then, when those bricks get old and fall apart. What happens if half of them are gone...........do you have less? Will there come a time, when you always have less?

You will be used to being so high........will this new level, feel so low?

A prison, is not a prison until it is built............maybe these bricks, are part of the prison you are building........the one, where you say that facts are facts..........and then will come a time, when you have to face facts, that you are alone. Everyone is dead, you are old.....you are grey........perhaps some bad things happend to people around you, and they never got to be old or grey.....you will have your facts.
It will be a fact, that old is bad. Gray is bad........that people dead is bad......that the people who died, missed out on climbing so high.........because it will be a fact, that climbing is important.....and your solid foundation, will tell you.....facts are facts.
You won't have room.....to change you mind. Your mind is real........your mind is truth and changing reality and truth makes no sense.

I would be a little worried.............to be so sure, what is better and what is higher. What is real and what is false.

LOL but you need to see it from my side

LOL you need to see it from mine.

You're trying to save me?............I am trying to save you! LOL

Which isn't true.....cause from where i sit, no one needs to be saved. Well, maybe Lilycat10 LOL

You said you had a goal: the love thing

Yes.....the irrational one?
Or the fairytale one?

Becareful what a borderline says.......he may change his mind, while he is saying it!

But then you say to me.....I can't have my goal. I will never have it.

Yeah but i'm a jerk. LOL You can have your goal........whenever you believe you have it.

What i mean is........I worry, that you will never feel it is real enough........because despite what you say, the person will change and you may feel asthough the value of the "realness" of their love has changed.

And by the way unconditional love as a goal is not just about me

HA HA HA HA if you say so.....

But i should remind you...........you create the world, and are the creator and the artist and it is your masterpiece......so how is it not about you? LOL

Thats why another goal is to be uncontrolling of others while at the same time learning to control me

So you will control others, by being uncontrolling.........and then you will INFLICT your unconditional love on them.

It's a devious plan. Machiavellian in its brutality.

It's kind of like those covert type narcs., that control you by letting you control them.

Giving becomes as gratifying as receiving. Others are always a part of my middle. And this may be the only place where I think exactly like you do LOL Others are and are not a part of me! We are connected in our goodness, but nowhere else.

LOL........that's why i like the narc. forum. I feel some of us, are connected in our badness. LOL
HPD forum too.............the BPD forum, they generally still think they are saints.

Yet you believe in powers in the universe?

Whoa....when did i start believing in things?

No.....just because i am afraid the universe is going to punish me, doesn't mean that i think it is.

It's like, if i go outside.......i may feel like someone is following me. I don't think anyone is......i just feel worried they are.

The power I believe in is a creative thing. It makes stuff. I think its funny for you to call it a fairytale when the evidence is all around. Stuff is here. Pretty awesome looking stuff, pretty artful and incredibly complex stuff

Stuff is here. Yes.

I'm not sure i get your point.

I mean, i get what you think that is a point..............but stuff is only here, because you are here to see it, call it stuff......think the fact you see it and call it stuff, is important.....and then tell me that i should also think that that is important, because it proves that things are important....

Now, i am not saying things aren't important...........but i am saying, that it's upto you to decide that.

The fact stuff is complex........only matters, if you think complex things are better than simple things.

The fact stuff is here..........only matters..........if you think there is a place, where stuff isn't,,,,,and that place, matters less than here. Where the stuff is.

You are using, concepts to prove the existence of other concepts........which is fine. But, then you want to use concepts, to prove the non-existence of other concepts.........which is fine.
But then, you want to use concepts, to say which concepts are more important, and which concepts are less important......and that too is fine........but it's all concepts.

To call any of it, fact......or reality.......and in the same breath, call other parts of it non-fact, non-reality......doesn't make sense.
It's like using the scale to prove how much you weigh.....but also to disprove that someone else has any weight.

There would have to be numbers on that scale.......one of them, would have to be the number where weight exists.
Now.......tell me, what is that number? And is that number, a function of reality? Or just our current ability to measure it?

Think about it....is 10 divided by 3.........3.3? or 3.33? or 3.333? or 3.33333333333333333333333?
and is one answer more "true" than another?

This is the uncertainty principle........you have to measure things, to be aware of them. And measuring them, requires you to be unaware.
You can never account for all variables.......and therefore, you can never be certain.

That would be, what you would like to call........fact. There are no facts.

There are only facts, where you measure......and where you measure, is a point in space and time (for arguments sake).......and that point, is always changing. Whether it is changing in reality.......through gravitational shifts and expanding dark matter or a bunch of other stuff i don't really understand..........or whether it is changing, in concepts in your mind.........it's always changing, if you dare measure that change.

It's like saying.....

If i could put the earth in a box....and weigh it. I would know how much the earth weighs.

But you would have to put the earth in a box, and weigh it....and know the effect gravity has on the weight of the earth in the box.....and to do that, you would need to know........the amount of gravity everywhere.
Because even the tiniest bit, somewhere......would affect everywhere.

In a way, you would be bound by the laws of the universe.....to not be sure of the laws of the universe.

Here:

Quantum Indetermincy ((i never heard this term before today)) is the apparent necessary incompleteness in the description of a physical system, that has become one of the characteristics of the standard description of quantum physics. Prior to quantum physics, it was thought that (a) a physical system had a determinate state which uniquely determined all the values of its measurable properties, and conversely (b) the values of its measurable properties uniquely determined the state. Albert Einstein may have been the first person to carefully point out the radical effect the new quantum physics would have on our notion of physical state.[1]

Quantum indeterminacy can be quantitatively characterized by a probability distribution on the set of outcomes of measurements of an observable. The distribution is uniquely determined by the system state, and moreover quantum mechanics provides a recipe for calculating this probability distribution.

Indeterminacy in measurement was not an innovation of quantum mechanics, since it had been established early on by experimentalists that errors in measurement may lead to indeterminate outcomes. However, by the later half of the eighteenth century, measurement errors were well understood and it was known that they could either be reduced by better equipment or accounted for by statistical error models. In quantum mechanics, however, indeterminacy is of a much more fundamental nature, having nothing to do with errors or disturbance.

Wow? How smart am I?

I came up with quantum indetermincy before i even heard of it! LOL

It just makes sense though? doesn't it????

Well it doesn't mean i'm smarter than einstein.......but i would of been right and he would of been wrong!
(like you, he believed in FACTUAL FACTS.........and uncertainty principle, went against what he thought....that you could have factual facts, that were always factual)

What was considered absolutely irrefutable science at one time is now bogus

Yes........because nothing is irrefutable. : )

And what you are saying...........yes people's own personal beliefs........that's why I would of been right and Einstein would of been wrong had me and him had this argument.......he had a personal stake, like me.....in believing in absolute facts.......(Via particles).......and my stake, is that there are no total facts.
It just so happens, my stake......makes sense in emotional/philosophical/human behavioural....realms.....and he was a really smart math guy. And math, seems to show you that facts are facts.......
Also...i live in 2011.....and he lived in the 30s.......but hey, they just disproved him in 1999. So it wouldn't of mattered if he just died 10 years ago.
of course, i'm sure he would of changed his mind inbetween then...........but whatever......we looked at the same data, and i was right and he was wrong! you know how cool that is???

Facts can't be facts.......because you cannot account for all variables.

Therefore, what is or isn't fact..........is by definition, not fact.

Believe me........i'm not just some guy. I'm some guy, who is good at putting abstract notions together. Like really really good. A lifetime of intellectualism (in the disordered sense of the word) will give you that advantage.

but to me God is much more complex

It's fine to believe in god.

It's just........odd to say this is god, and this isn't.

So, if a plane or a person.......is evidence of good. Is a virus or Hitler, not also evidence of god?

Is good and bad, not also evidence of god? In that system.........and if so, why do you dislike or hate or whatever....the badness of people, and only like the goodness.

But anyways........

No no, it's fine to believe whatever you want.........but it is belief. PErhaps, god doesn't need belief....and infact, if you do believe in god....what you are believing in, is not god.

Like Spring,summer, fall and winter......to me that is creation in motion, but it is also an analogy of the lifecycle of a person. We are born, we grow, we create, we die....... how is it that the seasons are exactly like the lifecycle of a man? How strange no? Maybe someone is trying to talk to us. I just happened to be listening. LOL And if its fantasy to you thats ok. But I gotta tell you......I have never known the seasons to be a thing which didn't happen. To me they would be a FACTUAL TRUTH. At least somewhere in the world....

The seasons, didn't happen before there was an earth.

It's not strange, that you see the seasons and the life cycle of people as being the same.......because they are the same. It is the same mechanics at work..........so is this conversation.......it began, it grew and it will end.
That is not evidence, that this conversation was planned......nor is it evidence it was not.

But i will say this about motion............

You are aware, that that is also perspective.

Time....doesn't exist the same way, everywhere.

Here on earth.........time moves slower than it does out in space. We know this........because the GPS satellites, the ones you or the ambulance drivers probably use everyday.....to get to places......those satellites have to be adjusted everyday.......for the time difference.
Because time passes faster out there.........if they were not adjusted........every GPS would be off by 2 kms every year.

The reason time moves slower here........is because of the mass of the earth. The mass of the earth, acts like an anchor in the current of time.........

This is what you would call, a factual fact. Time works different, in different places.

This is very important to understand............because, if you go far enough back in time..........you get to a place, where time has no beginning or ending. you go far enough back, and there is no before or after......

This is important, becasue we like to think.........."someone had to start this"..............but this never started.
When this started, there was no such thing as a start....atleast, starts weren't before endings.....

Before before, there was no before.

Again.........this assaults your "factual facts"............as it's not even a fact, LOL.....that now, is now and before is before.

That is a point of view..............Now, is only now.........if you agree, that what just happened happened before now. Perhaps it happened after now.....and we're looking at things backwards! LOL

If we weren't, we wouldn't be here.

Well, again........it may sound funny, but i will dispute that we are here!

For us to both be here.......would would have to agree where here is, and what "we" are.

Then perhaps, we would both be here.......unless someone came along, possibly some rowdy buddhist and told us we were neither here nor us...........

I want everyone to be healed and whole and to have what they want. Do they? But these things are not up to me. I have no control over them. I have to give that up and that is probably the only sadness in my life. To see the pain or torment of others and to be able to do nothing about it

Perhaps.

Perhaps the pain and torment........is pain and torment, because you say it is so. More of your prison, of factual facts.

I have to trust instead in the creative power to be bigger then me, smarter then me, to know the grand plan better then me

Perhaps, that creative power is telling you through me.......that you are that creative power. That the power is inside you, and so is the pain.

I am aware that all I know will never be enough

Perhaps you put too much stock in knowing. And as a result, devalue not knowing.

As Lao Tzu says: it's better to know, and think one doesn't.......than to not know and think one does.

Perhaps, you think you KNOW, that you cannot know enough..........but you could be wrong. You could know more than enough.

Or there could be someone, telling you that you do.

Me and you, this place, and all these people.......they are just someone elses bricks on their foundation. And I just have to trust that the master builder is bigger, better, and smarter then me.

You would have to trust that........if you were to trust that it is important.

But then, you would have to not be the creator you say you are......and not be the artist, you would have to give those powers away to the master builder........maybe the master builder, gave those powers to you and wonders why you don't use them.

If something is not absolute....then how can it exist at all? Or if it exists for a time.....then eventually it won't exist.

Well i hope i answered the first question enough...........that you now see, that nothing is absolute.
And i think you would agree, that things do appear to exist......even if it is not absolutely.

The second part, would like all things.........be upto you to decide.

Do things ever stop existing? Do they ever start? When do they start and when do they stop? Is time real? Is time ever unreal?

If we were to grant your absolutism....the one that the biggest and the brightest minds already say is false.....the ones, the biggest and the brightest minds (buddha, nagarjuna, lao tzu, plato) of the past already said was false........then you would not be free to answer those questions or any questions however you would like.
All those questions.....would have right answers, and wrong ones.

But if we were to grant, that the brightest minds of today..........and the brightest minds of the past, were indeed correct........and it truly is upto you, to decide for yourself........then you could answer all those questions right now.
Or better yet......... you could not need to.
You could freely change your mind and your answers as you wished........or not even give any.

Omnipotence and lying, is turning out to be a great name for this thread, no?

The thing about my life ....or being in the middle which is most difficult is letting go of people if I have to because that often means confronting something which is not working for me. Like confronting an alcoholic in my life and having to change things around so that I can work on me. They are part of the big creation, but they are not part of the creation of me except that the experience of them goes into the reference pile on the bad side, while at the same time, they stay in the middle at the place I told you where they are both a part of me and not a part of me

Yes...well if you have a bad side, and you think that bad sides are bad........then that is bad.

When I say control myself I mean my actions

Your thoughts are actions. Your actions, are a function of your thoughts...........if you want to control your actions, then you must control your thoughts.........without thought, you would not act.

Now, we can debate what constitutes thought........but i promise, you hold thought in higher reverance than i do.
And the debate would end up, with my comparing the importance of your thoughts.....to that of a virus. Which is just operating on electrical impulses of some tiny dimension..............as are we.
We just use those impulses, to reinforce why our thoughts, are better than those.........of others. Or even, as you say.........why some of our thoughts, are better than other of our thoughts......

The middle has to me mutual. There has to be common ground there

Yes, like reality.

There has to be common ground...........like wave particles, you have to say what is enough measurment to call it accurate.

But at the same time I have to be separate

Yes, like wave particles.........their momentum and their position, have to be separate. Or else they would not exist.

To remain separate and be in the middle at the same time means I focus on my needs and what they need from me

Yes, and what physics tells us......is that this is delusion. The more you remain separate, the less you are in the middle.....the more you are in the middle, the less you are separate.........
It's these "rules" that are yours........they take you out of the middle.

I need to follow my own rules in order to feel good about myself

Yes, because it is a rule that you need to feel good about yourself.

Anyone in my life currently has to respect my foundation rules absolutely

What if the person doesn't believe in absolutely? Or in foundations?

Creating something out of nothing is pretty awesome......maybe thats how the universe was formed?

Of course, that presupposes the existence of nothing, as separate from something.........but if you don't have absolutes, then there is never absolutely nothing....and never absolutely something.
So in that world, the universe was formed whenever you think it was formed.

(which is to say.......yes that solves the paradox.......)

((actually, it solves all paradoxes))

If i do pick some ideal i need to achieve, then i am doing so in order to fulfill only that ideal. I often do pick ideals i wish to live upto.........but realise they are hollow and become bored or realise they are not going to satisfy me, and don't put in the effort.

This looks like the removing bricks thing I talked about before.

Yes....it is safe to remove bricks if you can put them back.
And it is safe, to build bricks......if you can remove them.

The important thing.........is to understand, that it is upto you to understand what is important.

I explained that my ideal self is more of an artwork to me.....a creation. Because of that I never feel like I am a slave to it. Its fun, its inventive, its unusual, its unique,its complex in some places, and very simple in others. Its always changing in some ways and always the same in others ( foundation) Sometimes I have to think outside the box, sometimes not. But its the biggest and best thing I ever made in my life. And I made it all by myself. Its mine .....so I like it alot

Nothing to say to this. I just liked reading it.

I do not ever SEEK to feel pain. I avoid it if I can. Things are always going to happen that will create pain. But I am never looking for it.
The only place I like pain is in the bedroom

IC.......well, perhaps i'll fake respecting your foundation! LOL

Whats it like to feel bored? I am bored sometimes but also, in the middle so I know I have the choice to create and do anything I want

It is painful.....so painful infact, i am never bored.

Like you said, you can do anything you want....so you create some fun...........i do too. I am never bored, i am always fearing it and moving away from it before it has a chance to happen.

That was what was scary.........when all things lead to bliss, then all things seem to be equal. Go outside? I feel amazing.
Watch a movie? I feel amazing.
What a good movie? i feel amazing.
What a bad movie? I feel amazing.
Sit alone in my room? i feel amazing.
Go to the park? i feel amazing......

Yes it was amazing.........then it was boring, feeling amazing. Amazing was normal and nothing mattered, because everything was amazing.
I might have cancer? That is amazing. I won the lottery? That is amazing........Some guy is coming to kill me? That is amazing.......

It really was.....just amazing.

I really would like to go back there.........but with more control. But i am also afraid, i can't.......so i don't want to try.

Could it be that when you were enlightened you just didn't know what to do with yourself?
It sounds like an unfamiliar place to you

Yes. But moreso.........i had no desire to do anything. Everything was amazing.

Now, obviously i had some desire....i ate, i went to sleep......so i moved about. But i had very little desire.....eating was as awesome, as being hungry.

I mean if its something you never experienced for any length of time before, maybe you just needed to follow someone , or look for someone who could have helped you to know what to do with it?

I think it may be an experience, unique to me.

I have OCD, and BPD........and am also for lack of a better term (cause i am not) a Zen Buddhist.

I think BPD, gives me the black and white thinking and intense certainty of emotion.......and OCD, gives me the constant (i don't know what) intrusive positive feedback............that made me unable to really experience anything other than the one or two degrees of a powerful emotion....bliss.

So it's like......normally OCD is torturing you with why everything is bad.........in this state, my mind was feeding me all the time, ways inwhich everything was good.
I was unable to control it...like OCD....but it was good thoughts, so it seemed like i didn't need to.

Until...well, all i could have was good thoughts!

The only bad thought i was able to muster, was........."i forget what bad thoughts are like....i want some"...........and i could think them, but they didn't feel bad. They felt good.......

With no empathy you would, in a sense, always be alone. So even in the good place........being alone is lonely. Maybe you were not bored....maybe lonely?

Perhaps....but if i was lonely, it didn't last long. Like half a second.......imagine someone pricking you with a needle.....just the initial prick, was all the negative thoughts would last......so if i was lonely, it was for a fraction of a second with each prick. And they were few and far inbetween......

So no, not lonely........that would imply, i had a need for others. I didn't.......i needed nothing. Except, i needed to feel need again..........

I've always said.........i don't mind pain. Or fear...........i think i just hate a lack of control.

If i had a machine infront of me, where i could press a button and be so afriad i wanted to die.......i would press the button, provided i could control how long it lasted.
Or if i had a machine, that would hurt me so bad......that i would cry my eyes out, i would press that button, provided i could control how long it lasted.

I enjoy nightmares.......like i actually enjoy them.

I think, it's an HPD/BPD thing...........a lack of identity. A lack of whatever............i really am happy, being hurt and abused aslong as i am incontrol of the hurt and abuse.

In the bedroom.........i want to be rough and be treated rough. Damn near beaten to a pulp........and i want to beat to a pulp...........i also want to be really sweet and have someone be really sweet..........but i want both.
I would never be satisfied with only one.

I think that is partly, why my life is chaos and my goals are not achieved...........if i achieve them, i am afraid i will be bored and empty.
It's stupid.........but so is most of my disorder.........doesn't mean, it's not why i do the things i do.

And it appears...........even attaining enlightenment, i still have BPD/HPD. I still was, well.......the good boy in me was happy, but the bad boy in me.......he missed being punished.

Sometimes.....i really think, i am some sort of psycho. Not just a regular one, but a really special kind...that there are few of.
Perhaps the ones like me.......the BPD ones, are too afraid to admit their darker side. I know for a long time, i was.
Till i met some of the very scarier people on here.......and i was like, "i'm kind of like you" but not as scary.
But i am very close to as scary.....just not all the time.

Hypothetically............like you were saying, i want to kill someone. Just to cry over them. Of course, i would want to bring them back to life, and talk about how sorry i was.....and hug them and make everything better......then i would want, to kill them again! Hypothetically........
And do it over and over.......

I'd probably still be breaking up with my ex, and getting back together with her........if she didn't put a stop to it.
I loved making her cry..........LOVED IT! (it made me feel so bad, like i felt sad and gross).........i loved making her feel better. (it made me feel so good, warm and fuzzy)............

I guess that's hard for you to imagine.

Like this one time.......i hit my head on the ceiling. I was running down the stairs.........and my friend had a low ceiling.....it was totally unexpected, so it hurt. It hurt so bad........i remember not thinking things could hurt this much.........*but i'm BPD, i have been in worse pain i just forget easily.........but yes, it hurt really really really bad.

I look back on that memory, fondly.

I mean, it's not a fond memory........but it is. I remember rolling around on the floor, just wanting it to stop......and when it did, i wanted to go again! LOL

Not lonely in the sense of not having people around, but maybe you just didn't know how to connect and go to a different level. People are so complex and levels are deep. Is that a possibility???

Could be. That is a good question and theory!

(i like mine better.......but yours was worthy!)

One thing I notice in your writing is that your feelings are always very constant: good,bad, or bored. Yet there are so many other feelings...... You did mention you felt vulnerable sometimes but again, I was not sure if it was the same way I feel vulnerable. I like that feeling very much. Its about having the good and bad together and then being loved anyway. I could live in that feeling forever and it would be my bliss.

Wow.....

That makes me, think i would have fun hurting you. :twisted:

I like the feeling too.......sort of.

Not always though........maybe i hate it. I don't know.

Sexually vulnerable........i cannot stand. Which means, i like it but avoid it..........Like, i avoid sex as much as possible. Getting naked infront of another person, is really just too vulnerable for me.
I mean.......i like all the stuff surrounding sex, more than sex. I mean, if the sex is good....then yes great.....but if it's medium or average, then it's horrible.

Why is being vulnerable your bliss?

And, is that why you were with a Narc? Cause he'd hurt you? (you were always vulnerable)

BTW..........THIS IS F#&&#ING LONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

If you can change your thoughts you can change your life. I believe that VERY much because its what I experienced with the depression

Well, there you go. Then you should believe, changing your thoughts also changes reality.

I have to admit at first it felt weird. Like being on the moon.
I was having to tell myself things I didn't even really believe and I had to do things I never would have done, but the more I did the easier it became

Yes well, perhaps.....

My friend.....seems to think that hopefully (a different friend, the one whose boobs i haven't seen).....one day i'll be able to trust her.

Wow....long post.

(and if your reply is long....which it had better be! LOL..........copy and save it, cause there is a chance you will have to submit it twice)

by **ThisEndUp** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:42 am

Twistedmister wrote:Yes, this is fun.

Yes, well we PDs often manufacture bad times. I agree with you of course, and so does my subconscious.......however the difference is, we with PDs generally can't ever get enough reassurance.

Ok here is another place where we are different. I always have love in my life. And this is going to sound narcissistic LOL , but its because I love me at that foundation level. And because I love me......I BELIEVE loving me IS possible. I feel if I can do it.....and I know absolutely every bad thing there is to know about me, I know me better then anyone.......so if I can do it, then anyone can do it!!! If I can forgive myself for my bad actions....then anyone can.
I like praise, I like to be thought well of, but I do not NEED that from others to feel worthy. When others give it, its more like a drug. I get a little high. But that hit is not an addictive drug. To me its like taking an aspirin. Not something addictive. Its good.....but its not life sustaining. And even moreson , when I am in pain ( like if I had a headache and took an aspirin) that hit from others would make the pain less. But I am the one who determines my self worth. No one else is more qualified because I know me better then they do. No one else is qualified to judge me or my true self. They just will never have all the information they would need to do that. In turn I am not qualified to judge the life of someone else for the same reasons........the only thing I can judge is their actions in relation to me. So if they assault me my thought is not that they are bad, but that they are bad for me. They might be good for someone else.

Now on the top level where the building is going on.......people come in and out of my life and the work can be intense or difficult and I may have self doubt at times......but I always look at myself, my plan, and what I wish to achieve with respect to the work of art which is me. And ultimately I know my plan......its a good plan. My plan has to do with values. And my values are to treat everyone, including myself, in a way which I feel is right, fair, and honest. ( I know its subjective) However....this is where empathy comes in. I treat them the way I would want to be treated if I were in their shoes. To me thats fair, its right, and I try to always be honest. Living that.....makes me happy. Always happy? No. No one is always happy. Its actually more about coping with lifes ups and downs. I would say the overall FEELING I am going for is peace, safety, and a lack of fear. Even if I can't always LIVE my plan. I still know the plan is good. And that means I am good.

Yes i agree........being worshipped, is not a good aim. And of course, once the worshipping is done (whatever you are worshipped for) then you have very little.
We all want someone to love us for who we are..........but we just don't believe it is possible. Atleast, never enough.....to be comfortable and perhaps even functional in a relationship. (some of us)

Do you feel you love yourself? All parts of you......the good and the bad? I would think if you had no plan, then you would be judging yourself in up and down fashion. I am sometimes good and sometimes bad. LOL See...... i think I am starting to understand you!

You mentioned that its good I see the bad as a waste dump. But only PART of the bad is wasted. The other part of it is VERY valuable. That is the reference part. In fact its extremely valuable in making something out of nothing. When I behave badly, it is usually from a place of selfishness and my not living my values : to treat myself and others in a way which is right, fair, and honest. When I don't do that....when I don't live my values. Something bad always happens to me. A lot of times something bad happens to others too but that also hurts me. I can't feel good about myself if I hurt others because I think others are good......why would I want to destroy something good??? Especially if it hurts me. I broke my own rules. That is what hurts. I treated others in a way I myself would not want to be treated. I failed them, but mostly I failed me.

How do I fix this???? I fix it by admitting it and trying to make it right. Apologizing or whatever. When I do that......actually just the fact that I did it, means I am good again and following my plan. I deviated from the plan.....but now I am back on track. And more importantly I WANT to do that....because I do like people and don't like hurting them. Mostly cause I know they don't like it in the same way I wouldn't like to be hurt.

It really is........conditioning. I may want to believe we are independent and you are you and I am me.........but my conditioning, has always been that i have to control you because i have to fear you, because you will hurt me.

ok here is what I think about this. Its a FACTUAL truth for me so I already know you don't believe it LOL But I do.......
I can't control others. That is an illusion to me. Here is my best example: If I tied someone up and pointed a gun to their head and said....tell me you love me and I won't blow your head off. They WILL say it. But the fact is....unless they WANT to die. They don't love me at all. They will say what I want to hear, and do what I want them to do, and on the surface it all will LOOK like I am in control. But inside them......they will probably hate my guts. So......I have no control.
And lets say they DO want me to kill them. In that case they would be getting exactly what THEY want not necessarily what I want. I want them to love me. They want to die. They are foiling my plan! lol They can say it , still not mean it, and get what they want also! So even then they may be in agreement but it is still THEIR choice to be in agreement. If we are in agreement on ANYTHING...that is still their choice and not mine. I can make anyone DO anything.....but I can't ever force them to believe something they really don't want to believe. Ok so now you will tell me about cults and stuff and I have to agree with you. Its about conditioning. If I stand there long enough and play games long enough then they will seem to come around.......however I am not a mind reader. Will never be one......so how do I know they are not just living a lie? How does anyone know? Maybe even then their subconscious will be sayin FU to me. Know what I mean??? And I believe that is what happens there.

I believe at everyones foundation.....they believe they are good. I believe that because I believe in god. I think HE is everyones real parent. And for some people.....I think their parents were assholes and basically conditioned this belief out of them. On the surface. But I think subconsciously they always want to feel at peace with themselves ....or want unconditional love. And to me if someone has that desire or that want......no matter in what ###$ up way they go about trying to reach for that.......then its the foundation saying FU to their parents.

In your equation..........hurt is possible. Or far off if it is understood as inevitable............in mine, hurt is always just right around the corner. The safer i am, the more sure i am something is about to happen.

It's not on a conscious level...........it's my mind's response, to terror. I grew up in terror i guess?

I don't know. Did you??? You think your subconscious is ever saying FU to your parents????

So as a result........the OMNIPOTENCE factor comes in........my mind, needs to see itself as omnipotent, as that was its only defence. It's the only defence, it believes in.......the only one possible.

See and I think in a way we are all omnipotent over our OWN lives....but as I said above.....we can never control someone else. It seems to me that your conditioning forces you to focus on controlling others. For protection like you said. But when you you focus on controlling them, you are out of control yourself because of the TV thing. And mostly this equates to your perspective and your thoughts. Both of which, I think you can choose. You were conditioned to choose your parents perspective and thoughts about you. Children have no control over adults. No physical power. To survive they can ONLY control their thoughts. So they do. They choose what to think in order to survive mentally in the moment. Over and over they are taught to believe a different perspective about themselves.....not their perspective but their parents. Brainwashing like I described above......someone needs physical power to do that to anyone. But when its conditioned.....then they just take over themselves. When they are adults and actually DO have the power to choose different thoughts and perspectives.......but they don't. Although I did....and I completely relate to what you said when you told me being in the middle FEELs fake. Thats what I was trying to describe to you when I talked about the depression experience. I was telling myself different things and they did feel fake. Untrue. But now they FEEL true. I conditioned the old out. So I think its possible. And yes it was hard. But so worth it. Your focus is outward....on trying to control others, but in doing so .....you only have physical power......never over their mind. Not really. Especially if you are not brainwashing them and like I said even if you did.....whos to say what their subconscious thinks?

I know other people, believe they do love and are loved..........but i don't, and perhaps can't.

if you don't believe you can have it....then you can't. If you want to believe it....it WILL feel fake. Not because its untrue, but because it is unknown for sure to you. Like the war being over. Initially....you doubt what you heard. But then you recognize the fighting stopped. So you get a little more sure. People start going home...retreat. You get more sure. You get home to a soldiers welcome. Much more security sets in........the thing that helps to bring to you the assurance that the war REALLY is over.........is not only your thoughts ( cause they doubt) but your actions too.....you start taking steps as if the war really is over. Reconditioning yourself is like this. Chosing different self talk and following it as if it were true. Yes it feels fake.....but like coming home from war......eventually it feels right.

The middle, is where i feel fake. Like i am lying........but not sure what the lie is.

I think......and I can't make you agree because I have no control over you. LOL But I think that what you believe is a lie.......is actually what you have been conditioned to believe. The brainwashing from a parent. Maybe you believe you are unworthy....unlovable because that is the message they sent you over and over. Rebellion is a very common response to a parent who is unfair or unjust to a child. So lets say for example.....and I don't know this to be true because I am not you. You are the expert on you so maybe you could give me a better example or a more accurate one, but lets say a parent were to punish you for something in your mind as a child you didn't believe was wrong. Lets imagine you got sick and vomited on moms floor in the dining room and mom went into a rage. Now inside your little childs mind you are good. And you couldnt help vomiting....so you still think you are good. Your mom however is saying all this $#%^ to the contrary. However inside you know you are good. But mom being unfair makes you mad....and rightly so. Now lets say mom punishes you. Whips the $#%^ out of you. If you are mad at mom.....and you have no control physically. How do you get her back??? Well.......maybe you learn to LIKE it. In liking the pain......then you have just spoiled moms plan. ###$ her up.......your subconscious has basically said FU mom. I didn't do anything wrong. If mom does things like this over and over.......you are conditioned to like pain. Because pain for you is justice. FU MOM I LIKE it, you can't hurt me! MUHAHAHAHAHA!!
Problem is.....you grow up and there is no way to punish you when you REALLY do something wrong. You won't feel it....not really. And also if you have no plan for life.....then you have no values....no rules to break that make you feel bad about yourself......so you can't even punish yourself. Good is good and bad is good, so whats bad? The only place left where a real feeling exists or any sort of energy for survival is that wanting to feel worthy thing.......that want for love.

".... A person once told me about a get together he was going to attend..........,everynight this man throws a party at his house...........people come from all around, and line up to speak to him........he has a few drinks and tells you all the worst things about yourself. He tells you in all the ways you are ugly and in all the ways you are a failure and in all the ways you are worthless....he makes you believe it............then the man, has a few more drinks..........and tells you in all the ways you are smart and attractive and how you have purpose and are a worthwhile to this world, he makes you believe in all the good things about you.........

I asked him then, why are you going? If he says such bad things about you?

"because, the bad things are just stuff he says when he is drunk"

LOL Actually I would call this the smartest drunk in the world. He is really showing them all unconditional love. And I suspect your friend is not being honest entirely about why he goes......

It makes sense. You have multiple personality disorder......the bad you, the middle you that is real and the good you! I hope when you go out to eat, the other two chip in! LOL

LOL!!!

It's funny..................this is what we don't get. Us PDs.............that there is this "real" you, and everything else is less real.

Its not like that......everything else is real. But everything else is a reference. An encyclopedia is real, blueprints for a house are real, they are tools we use to build the self.

Yelled at your husband? Well that wasn't you.....that was just a moment. Got drunk and ran over 10 kids.....well you were drunk, that wasn't you.
Got married and swore you would be there forever.....well you were young, that wasn't you.

They were all ACTIONS I took. Who I am and what I do are always 2 different things, however ideally they should ALWAYS match. That is a goal I would be striving for. However the world is an imperfect place and I am also imperfect. When I break away from my plan ( my values) and do something wrong ( act in a way that hurts myself or others) then I did something wrong.......until I make it right again. Which I have to do because it reinforces that I am good. I do it pretty quickly too. If I just leave the wrongs wrong....they would pile up and building stops and they would be overwhelming to deal with ( though not impossible- this is what Ns do.....they are never sorry....their $#%^ piles up and up and its so overwhelming to them....they can't even look at it) But the bad actions......they are mine. Its me in the moment. But its not my plan. The more I follow the plan.....the more reinforcement I get that I am good. After a while you just don't even think about it. You just make the wrongs right again and keep building. Sometimes if you deviate from the plan a lot.....you really have to do a lot to fix things in order to keep building. This would be if you really did something very wrong or against your own values.

This "you" always seems to be on the right side of everything. Anything it did wrong, was the bad you or the foolish you or the uninformed you..........but the real you, just like the real everyone else......is always on the right side of things.

It's good work, if you can get it!

Its just the plan. The plan is good. The real me does not ACT in a way which is always good - that is a factual truth for me. But The real me WANTS to follow the plan because it makes me feel good and the real me also believes others are good, so doesn't want to hurt them. The real me makes amends. The real me is good, not because I do bad things, but because I turn the bad into good by making amends. I learn from the bad things and I use that to make something out of nothing. Usually something better. The bad things ironically, often result in the MOST good things. But only AFTER I acknowledge and make amends for them. The bad things bring greater understanding, open doors of communications, all sorts of wonderful stuff. However the ACTIONS which caused the bad things to happen.....those get piled in the waste dump and I try not to do them again.

It's why.........none of the nons on here, give my argument about their lack of charity work or their meat eating or any of the things they do, that hurt others ..............any concern. They just laugh at me........"i would never hurt anyone".........as they eat their chicken and eggs, and drive their suvs and go to work for the insurance company or the gas company or coca-cola or whoever else.....and however else, they make a profit off the backs of others.

To you this is evidence that people aren't living their values. But I don't know......I don't feel I have any right to judge them, because I am not in a position to judge them. Because I don't know what they are thinking or whats going on in their life. For example......lets say I am watching a TV commercial for a 3rd world country and I turn the channel. Why am I turning the channel? Your presume to know why, but what if you are wrong? Is it because I feel guilty? Or because I believe charity begins at home and I gave to some other charity? Maybe I have an uncle with diabetes and that is my charity. Or is it because I don't make a lot of money and can barely keep myself and my family going? Or is it because I really don't care? Just because someone appears to not be living their values does not mean they aren't living them in a way which is better for them and for someone else who needs it. There is NEED everywhere. And the fact is SOMEONE gives to those things......someone is feeding them , probably someone more able to do it. I believe everyone has a purpose. And this purpose I think comes from a place where they have a special talent. So lets say I bake cupcakes well. This is my talent. But lets say you make money well. Thats your talent. Now lets say all I do is provide you with your dessert at work while you are making the millions. And lets also say you give millions to charity every year. All I gave is a cupcake. Am I less worthy then you? I am supporting you at lunch.....givin you a little happiness. And you are supporting me by buying my cupcakes. Lets say I am raising 3 kids and one will grow up to be the guy who solves world hunger. My cupcake money makes his education possible. Well my cupcake just solved world hunger. Or at least had a part in it, so what appears on the surface to be people not caring about others is not always what it appears to be. The cupcake lady loves her kid in this example. The money guy loves his charity. They do what they love and others benefit. No one person can solve every problem in the world. But one person can love those immediately around them and in doing so loves branches out

who is more in control? The guy who doesn't believe in reality? LOL or the person who insists on FACTUAL FACTS!!! LOL

I don't want or need to be in control of others.
I am very in control of me.
Who do you want to be in control of? And in what way physically or mentally?

Creation........is good. Not needing to create, is better. And not needing to create, doesn't need to be better......it does not need, to be anything.

That sounds like one of your personal truths. Can't argue with someones personal truth and I don't want to. If it feels good and right for you then it is. Creating feels right for me.

But the angry you........or the bad you, and the ideal you...........what about their masterpieces?
There masterpieces do not matter, because they aren't real????
Because it is so important for you........that the bad you, and the ideal you.....not be real. And the real you, to destroy them.....the middle you, to destroy their authenticity....to create its own.

I already said its all me and its all real. For example, we can probably agreed that water is 2 hydrogen & 1 oxygen molecule. Its still water. 3 parts making one substance. Thats what the 3 parts are doing here. I am building the real me......so that IS real. Its just a work in progress. In the moment the bad act is also real. I don't need to destroy the bad.....bad things naturally destroy themselves. I can never do something bad without something being destroyed: be it trust or peace, or my moms windshield. If I do it and its bad.....its a destructive force. Its real. Its not good though, because its destructive. All I do is turn it into something good by addressing it, by making amends, or coping with it in some way. The Good and bad sides are not the self. They are tools/references. The work is in the middle, the real self is in the middle

LOL.........This is what we HPDs do. We suck the emotions of other people, to make our emotions more real.
You do the same.........but you don't allow yourself to see it that way. You don't even allow yourself to see it that way, when you do it to yourself.........

Ok you lost me. What emotions are you talking about? I thought we were just talking about the different parts and how they function, not much was said on emotions so I am lost! LOL

Yes....solid. a.k.a. Mommy and daddy hugged you, and you believed you could do no wrong. Solid.

Well its more then that. Mommy and daddy also punished me when I did things wrong. They didn't punish me for things I couldn't help or things I did that were right. They punished me for things that were not good for me to do either because I would get hurt or I would hurt others. The other thing is....they didn't OVER punish me. Its not only about getting positive things, its also about learning to cope with things which are not positive.

But now, later in life............you ascribe some sort of PERFECTION or SOLIDness to other things......mainly middle you, and real love and real facts............but that's all based, on the solidness you experienced first.
The subconcious reinforces the FEELING that things are solid.

Whereas mine, reinforces the idea that they are not.

Yes I understand that. I think earlier in this post I eluded to it.

You talk about the sun being solid or the earth or the pyramids............and i don't see how any of those things are anymore or less solid then the flickering lights that make up the LCD screen that i am typing this on.

I don't expect you to agree with me because you already said your personal truth was that factual truth doesn't exist. That feels good to you and works for you. I don't want to change your mind.
I can only explain myself in those terms because I believe in it.

But then , there would be so many things........so many many many things, you would walk by and miss, not experience.......not let be "real" and would dismiss as imaginary..........that you would never get to enjoy.
Not the way i enjoy them...........

Drama....excitement........terror..........these things, would not exist in a very large quantity.

I think I addressed this also before with the analogy about the parent and the rebellion. No I don't like this stuff except on TV and even then only if it has a happy ending! LOL!!

A prison, is not a prison until it is built............maybe these bricks, are part of the prison you are building........the one, where you say that facts are facts..........and then will come a time, when you have to face facts, that you are alone. Everyone is dead, you are old.....you are grey........perhaps some bad things happend to people around you, and they never got to be old or grey.....you will have your facts.
It will be a fact, that old is bad. Gray is bad........that people dead is bad......that the people who died, missed out on climbing so high.........because it will be a fact, that climbing is important.....and your solid foundation, will tell you.....facts are facts.
You won't have room.....to change you mind. Your mind is real........your mind is truth and changing reality and truth makes no sense.

What can I say? It makes me feel at peace to follow the plan. I will let you know what developes. I like creating.

I would be a little worried.............to be so sure, what is better and what is higher. What is real and what is false.

Nope....no worries here. What would worry you about building? Does something seem scarey to you about it?

You're trying to save me?............I am trying to save you! LOL!

LOL Save you from what??? I already told you before, I am very aware that I can't control you.
I have no control over you. I can't force you to do anything. And I don't want to.
You are the King of you, the god of you, the ruler of you....and I can't do anything to make that not so. And I don't want to.

I got my own country over here to run so I don't need yours. LOL!

I am not telling you this stuff to make you change. I am telling you so you know me and how I think. Just giving you info on me. I am the expert on me and how I work. Just like you are the expert on you. I really like you telling me about yourself. Its fascinating.

About me.....I can take care of myself. Run my own kingdom. I know whats best for me. And I think you know whats best for you, so I leave you to it.

quote]But then you say to me.....I can't have my goal. I will never have it.

Yeah but i'm a jerk. LOL You can have your goal........whenever you believe you have it. [/quote]
LOL you were saying this in reference to yourself not to me. Sorry I didn't make that clear. I never believed you thought I could not have a goal. My understanding was that you told me that you couldnt have a self goal.

What i mean is........I worry, that you will never feel it is real enough........because despite what you say, the person will change and you may feel as though the value of the "realness" of their love has changed.

Hmmmmm to me.....if they tell me the truth...the good and bad about themselves .....then its more real, not less. I have no control over what they tell me. So in effect as far as our relationship and the love between us. He is in control of the love he gives, and how I perceive it, and him ,to a great degree. Everyone says things and does things. People can say anything but their actions speak too. In the case of the N I was with…… the things he said did not always match what he did. You don't say you love someone and then hurt them and never try to make it right. If you do......then you can't possibly love them in any real sense because something has to be untrue. When bad is the end.........and its not made right......the bad just stays. And if that bad is directed at me.....I told you, thats like death to me. He is saying ....you are dead to me cause I am not willing to make it right. ok then good bye.....we are incompatible. Our value systems do not match. Ns refuse to acknowledge their bad side. Yet no one is perfect and you can see/feel the lies, the betrayals, the insults as well as the Good. But after a while with such a degree of lies……..and remember I told you bad stuff is a destructive force/.…..well the lies just destroy everything. In the beginning things were good. But then I found out he lied about stuff. Plus he has no empathy. So basically the whole thing was a lie. He never loved me. Loved what I gave him, but praise and admiration are not love. I could make a tape playing praise and admiration all day long. Let him listen to that. Cuz thats what he really wanted was a mind ###$! LOL!!
There is joy in giving. Amazing joy.
Its part of love. That is why people are always included in my real self. Sometimes actively included......sometimes passively ( they are just a part of me) They are never excluded unless they exclude themselves. He excluded himself by ending it with a bad. Because he said nothing. If he wanted to end it honestly he could have explained things. But he didn't so he killed me to himself and excluded himself from my life. He never even saw me. Used to tell me what HE thought *i* thought. He was ALWAYS wrong. I used to tell him. You can't read my mind so stop trying. He would attribute all this evil thinking to me( projection) He was wrong. It was like being insulted all the time with lies. You think this about me. ###$ me I know what I think. I may not know your truth or anyone elses, but I damn well know what I think better then you do! LOL!! Anyway he cant give back……doesn't know joy in giving. So that really means I was never loved by him at all. Not even in the beginning.

And by the way unconditional love as a goal is not just about me

HA HA HA HA if you say so.....

But i should remind you...........you create the world, and are the creator and the artist and it is your masterpiece......so how is it not about you? LOL

I did NOT say it was not about me!!!! LOL!! I said it wasn't ONLY about me. It IS me so its more about me then anything else!
Loving others, giving to others, and letting go of the wish to control others is a byproduct of creating myself and controlling me.

So you will control others, by being uncontrolling.........and then you will INFLICT your unconditional love on them.

It's a devious plan. Machiavellian in its brutality.
It's kind of like those covert type narcs., that control you by letting you control them.

LOLOLOLOL!!! Covert narcs are controlling!!!! They use the narc for supply. Using anyone is controlling. Since I don't need attention or admiration to feel good about myself on a foundation level. How am I controlling? I don't manipulate people. I don't lie to them about myself and if I want something from them I ask for it directly and leave them in charge of the outcome. So how is this controlling? Unconditional love is about acceptance. Not control. The other person is free to choose whatever he wants. he wants in thats ok or he wants out thats ok. Just don't hurt me and everything is ok.

In a way, you would be bound by the laws of the universe.....to not be sure of the laws of the universe.
I came up with quantum indetermincy before i even heard of it! LOL

It just makes sense though? doesn't it????

What makes sense to me is what I experience.
No man will ever have my trust as to the creation of the universe, because no man made it.
At least no one I know! LOL
Have not met a man yet who could recreate anything here or create something completely new here by USING something HE created himself to do it. No what I mean?
For man to create anything.... man has to use whats already here. He has never made anything from nothing. He is not the originator of the stuff. Not any of it! When man becomes the originator OF ANYTHING.......using stuff HE has made to create his stuff.....then I will listen to what man has to say about the universe. Until then.....man is just rifling through someone elses stuff in my opinion. Lookin around....a SPY!!! :shock:

Man made things are man made. The only man made things that are worth a hill of beans to me....are their true selves. You don't have to believe what I believe. Put your faith in man. And its perfectly findwith me if you tell me I can't be sure of the laws of the universe. I don't have to be. I am here. Fact for me. Some force thought I should be here another Fact for me. Some force put others here. Fact for me. Some force gave them sperm and eggs and yadda yadda and I know they didn't do it themselves. What they needed to create....was created by some other force. Thats all I need to know because its just out of my hands. I have no control over it. I am part of it. I do what seems natural to me. It works for me and it feels right. So its what I chose to do. I respect that you have to do what feels right for you. You know you better then I do.

Einstein.......
Also...i live in 2011.....and he lived in the 30s.......but hey, they just disproved him in 1999. So it wouldn't of mattered if he just died 10 years ago.
of course, i'm sure he would of changed his mind inbetween then...........but whatever......we looked at the same data, and i was right and he was wrong! you know how cool that is???

LOL all it means to me is that in another 80-90 yrs someone will come along and prove you wrong.
:wink:

I don't trust men ....who were created by something.......to know more then the thing that created them. Does my chicken enchilada casserole know more then I do about making chicken enchilada casserole? No and it never will......it knows what it is.....but it doesnt know the tools I used to make it....or the precise way you combine or mix things, it doesn't know the oven temp or the the measurements of the ingrediants. LOL And yes I know a casserole knows nothing....but you get what I am saying I think.

It's fine to believe in god.

It's just........odd to say this is god, and this isn't.

So, if a plane or a person.......is evidence of good. Is a virus or Hitler, not also evidence of god?

I never said it wasn't did I?

Is good and bad, not also evidence of god? In that system.........and if so, why do you dislike or hate or whatever....the badness of people, and only like the goodness.

Yes good and bad are both evidence of god. And in the sense that I myself take the bad which comes into my life and I told you earlier it often makes things even better ultimately.........in that way I DO appreciate its value. But only as it brings a greater good. I do not seek to do bad things in order to make more good stuff. Because its not part of the plan. LOL!! Bad stuff happens, but I am not going to be the creator of it because I can see the end result of that. Its a destructive force. If everyone did it....there would be nothing left. Plus I dislike being hurt. I dislike seeing others hurt. That is bad to me.

The seasons, didn't happen before there was an earth.

It's not strange, that you see the seasons and the life cycle of people as being the same.......because they are the same. It is the same mechanics at work..........so is this conversation.......it began, it grew and it will end.
That is not evidence, that this conversation was planned......nor is it evidence it was not.

Thats because you didn't plan it. I actually did. I wrote the first post. I planned on saying something and having others read it. So there was a plan......

Again.........this assaults your "factual facts"............as it's not even a fact, LOL.....that now, is now and before is before.

LOL nope I don't feel assaulted. What I feel is the same.
Still believe in factual facts......

Its the whole, man who created nothing here, and yet he is somehow the authority on it all ...thing. Oh and the chicken enchilada casserole, which is very tasty by the way, you like jalapenos????
:wink:

I want everyone to be healed and whole and to have what they want. Do they? But these things are not up to me. I have no control over them. I have to give that up and that is probably the only sadness in my life. To see the pain or torment of others and to be able to do nothing about it

Perhaps.

Perhaps the pain and torment........is pain and torment, because you say it is so. More of your prison, of factual facts.

In my original post I believe I asked you if you had what you wanted. I never said you didn't have what you wanted. I can't judge your life. I can only judge my own. Many people are very forthright in saying that they don't have what they want in life. So I know people not being healed and feeling whole is a fact, not because I say its so, but because people have told me. Its THEIR personal truth which I can't argue with. I want everyone to live their personal truth. If someone lies about their personal truth to me, they hurt themselves not me. Its not my truth, so how can I be hurt by it? Its not my torment so how can it be my prison? I feel sad not because of any facts I dreamed up on someone elses behalf. If everyone I met told me hey I am great, love my life, feel completely like I have everything I ever wanted. Then i would not feel sad at all.

Perhaps, that creative power is telling you through me.......that you are that creative power. That the power is inside you, and so is the pain.

I am not in pain. At least not right this second. LOL!!
And I gotta thank you actually for getting my mind on other things.....its nice!
I have recently suffered a loss. But its not something I can't get over.
I know I am loved.... I will hurt and grieve for a while.....then move on....its a process. Been through it before. Have access to the bad references and it all points to a brighter future. So work on the top is just slow right now...but steady as she goes....

Perhaps you put too much stock in knowing. And as a result, devalue not knowing.

As Lao Tzu says: it's better to know, and think one doesn't.......than to not know and think one does.

I completely agree! I value not knowing very much. It is very freeing to know that someone else is in charge of things. I only have to be in charge of me. Its a good thing . Did I say something to make you think otherwise?

You would have to trust that........if you were to trust that it is important.

But then, you would have to not be the creator you say you are......and not be the artist, you would have to give those powers away to the master builder........maybe the master builder, gave those powers to you and wonders why you don't use them.

Actually I use the powers now......I didn't use them before. Before I was doing the brainwashed by parents thing. I think all people have the power to create or destroy. It is their choice who they want to be. I think the master builder wants love. Love has to be a choice. If the master builder just created everyone loving.....then he'd be controlling and no one would love him of their own free will. We would all be robots. Worshipping the creator by force. Loving and being good by force. Why would anyone want that? I don't want someone to love me because they HAVE to. I want someone to love me because they WANT to. Thats why the bad exists.......because without it.....there is no other choice.

The whole self thing is about unconditional love.....an acceptence of people fully without controlling them.

When I say control myself I mean my actions

Your thoughts are actions. Your actions, are a function of your thoughts...........if you want to control your actions, then you must control your thoughts.........without thought, you would not act.

I agree. My thoughts are the most important things for me to control.

Now, we can debate what constitutes thought........but i promise, you hold thought in higher reverance than i do.
And the debate would end up, with my comparing the importance of your thoughts.....to that of a virus. Which is just operating on electrical impulses of some tiny dimension..............as are we.
We just use those impulses, to reinforce why our thoughts, are better than those.........of others. Or even, as you say.........why some of our thoughts, are better than other of our thoughts......

LOL Since I am the creator of me, then I can determine what thoughts are good and bad for me.
I can't determine what is good for you. Nor do I want to. Like I said before. I have my own country to run: ME. I have enough on my hands running my own life. I don't need to try to run yours too. If I focus on telling you what to think and what to do and what is what.....then I can't focus on what is really my primary responsibility.......me!

.

To remain separate and be in the middle at the same time means I focus on my needs and what they need from me

Yes, and what physics tells us......is that this is delusion. The more you remain separate, the less you are in the middle.....the more you are in the middle, the less you are separate.........
It's these "rules" that are yours........they take you out of the middle.

If had a box ( my creation) and put two smaller boxes within the larger box, and separate the two smaller boxes from each other within the larger box. I have 2 separate boxes within a box. If I held up one of those boxes with one hand I would do it well. If I try to pick them both up with the same hand I do it less well. You can talk physics till the sun comes up. But I can see and do this and its what I experience. And if I had a physicist here…..he'd probably agree with us both because we are talking about different things.

Anyone in my life currently has to respect my foundation rules absolutely

What if the person doesn't believe in absolutely? Or in foundations?

He doesn't have to. This is my rule. If he doesn't believe in it, he is separate and can go if he wants. Or he is free to stay as long as his belief doesn't hurt me or offend me at a root level. The rules at root level have strong boundaries because they are needs. I need to eat. If someone doesn't believe that, then I would say to them. Look I am going to eat. You don't have to. If you try to stop me from eating then you will have to leave. At this point he has full control over his actions.
He can a) stay and watch me eat
b) leave
or c) try to force his beliefs onto me in some way.
But in all his options the choice is his….the control is his…….and the control over himself is his. I am just letting him know who I am and what I need. If he stops me from eating by force…..he still has not controlled me with respect to the rules. He still has not changed my rules……still has not made me believe something different about my rules. All he has done is proven that he has no respect for me, and doesn't value me as an individual. I have no worth to him. If that is so ….why this guy stay around? Why would he even want to be with someone who he doesn't respect and has no value to him? It makes no sense………

Creating something out of nothing is pretty awesome......maybe thats how the universe was formed?

Of course, that presupposes the existence of nothing, as separate from something.........but if you don't have absolutes, then there is never absolutely nothing....and never absolutely something.

You don't have absolutes. LOL I do.

So in that world, the universe was formed whenever you think it was formed

.

I don't know when it was formed. I didn't form it and I don't know of a man who did.

(which is to say.......yes that solves the paradox.......)

((actually, it solves all paradoxes))

LOL

I do not ever SEEK to feel pain. I avoid it if I can. Things are always going to happen that will create pain. But I am never looking for it.
The only place I like pain is in the bedroom

IC.......well, perhaps i'll fake respecting your foundation! LOL

LOL you don't have to. Actually its better for you to be yourself when relating to me because even if you don't believe in factual truth…..you said you do believe in personal truth and so do I. So in this way……we can come together and connect. I can't deny or challenge something that is yours. All I do is accept it.

Whats it like to feel bored? I am bored sometimes but also, in the middle so I know I have the choice to create and do anything I want

It is painful.....so painful infact, i am never bored.

being bored is not painful to me. No pain at all. Being bored just feels like I am not creating anything. More like feeling unproductive. Watching TV can feel boring or unproductive even though its entertaining. But only if I am watching something I already saw. Something new……..usually feels somewhat productive.

Like you said, you can do anything you want....so you create some fun...........i do too. I am never bored, i am always fearing it and moving away from it before it has a chance to happen.

If I never created anything I imagine as time went on that would be painful.

I might have cancer? That is amazing. I won the lottery? That is amazing........Some guy is coming to kill me? That is amazing.......

It really was.....just amazing.

Well I can see here that something wasn't quite right about it for you. Having cancer would not feel amazing to me. It sounds like feeling was missing. At least the ebb and flow of feeling that comes with life. Yes??? LOL although I imagine your ebb and flow is a lot different then mine!

I really would like to go back there.........but with more control. But i am also afraid, i can't.......so i don't want to try.

Well you can always consider it without actually going back……….you wouldn't need to fear that……what would you want to control about it?

Could it be that when you were enlightened you just didn't know what to do with yourself?
It sounds like an unfamiliar place to you

Yes. But moreso.........i had no desire to do anything. Everything was amazing.

Now, obviously i had some desire....i ate, i went to sleep......so i moved about. But i had very little desire.....eating was as awesome, as being hungry.

Thats very interesting. Because I can imagine that if I never had a plan…..a root plan for my life and one day things were just good…….I wouldn't really know what to do with myself because I would not have a plan…..nothing to build on…..nothing to do….things would just exist….feelings but nowhere to put them. I guess it would have to also do with my having no factual truth. If factual truth was gone then no foundation that was based in faith. Or trust……. After all having cancer is not amazing to me……that would be a factual truth for me. It would be bad……..but if I had a plan…..and the reference of the bad being made into good…….then I could at least try to take the cancer thing and see what I could do with it to turn it into something of meaning.

I think BPD, gives me the black and white thinking and intense certainty of emotion.......and OCD, gives me the constant (i don't know what) intrusive positive feedback............that made me unable to really experience anything other than the one or two degrees of a powerful emotion....bliss.

So it's like......normally OCD is torturing you with why everything is bad.........in this state, my mind was feeding me all the time, ways inwhich everything was good.
I was unable to control it...like OCD....but it was good thoughts, so it seemed like i didn't need to.

yes this makes perfect sense to me.

I enjoy nightmares.......like i actually enjoy them.

Why do you enjoy them???

In the bedroom.........i want to be rough and be treated rough. Damn near beaten to a pulp........and i want to beat to a pulp...........i also want to be really sweet and have someone be really sweet..........but i want both.
I would never be satisfied with only one.

Why does the intensity of feeling have to be so strong do you think???

I think that is partly, why my life is chaos and my goals are not achieved...........if i achieve them, i am afraid i will be bored and empty.

Do you feel in any way that you are limiting yourself here when you say this? I mean what if achieving a goal brings such a change to your life that it brings on the thought that you might like to achieve something else? What if one goal leads to more and other things. What if success leads you to want more success ? More goals more of whatever ……..would that be boring?

And it appears...........even attaining enlightenment, i still have BPD/HPD. I still was, well.......the good boy in me was happy, but the bad boy in me.......he missed being punished.

Sometimes.....i really think, i am some sort of psycho. Not just a regular one, but a really special kind...that there are few of.
Perhaps the ones like me.......the BPD ones, are too afraid to admit their darker side. I know for a long time, i was.
Till i met some of the very scarier people on here.......and i was like, "i'm kind of like you" but not as scary.
But i am very close to as scary.....just not all the time.

Hypothetically............like you were saying, i want to kill someone. Just to cry over them. Of course, i would want to bring them back to life, and talk about how sorry i was.....and hug them and make everything better......then i would want, to kill them again! Hypothetically........
And do it over and over.......

Ok let me ask you something here. There are FEELINGS and there are thoughts and there are ACTIONS and there are results. So when I look at what you just said……I ask myself: what does he want or need? And from what you said you want to FEEL certain things……
destruction
anger
power
regret
sorrow
heroism
revenge
punishment

The heroism just doesn't seem to fit….in a way.
Why do you think you want to feel those things? And please…..if I left out any other feelings you might want to feel then add them.

Needing to feel is not wrong. And what I see here with respect to the feelings is not about someone else. Its only about you. So I think it would be important for you to know why you wanted or needed to feel these things……

The other thing I see here is you want to use the person in order to get these feelings. And personally I don't think you need someone else at all to feel these feelings. I think the whole thing has something to do with how you feel about yourself maybe??? Remember we talked about the seasons before? All your feelings could be an analogy of someones life….only you have to see them in reverse. Because the whoe thing I see as a form of rebellion so tell me what you think of this analogy…..
create- child is created
joy-this is usually a good thing
powerlessness- they are helpless
hope - they need to be taken care of
pleasure- they want to feel they are good
evil-what if they were given the idea they weren't good or were treated very badly. this was the thing that did not fit in the top, why would anyone treat a helpless child badly?
avenge- the child might need the truth known…..his needs were good and he should have been treated well.
justice- the child might need that truth to be known. Things would need to be made right. If you take the evil out of the equation here on the bottom and put in the hero……then you come out with an altogether different child. And if you put the evil in the top…….it disappears. Because the whole top is about destruction. And when something doesn't exist…….it just doesn't exist. There is no hero on the top, realistically speaking………
Was there an evil on the bottom????

I'd probably still be breaking up with my ex, and getting back together with her........if she didn't put a stop to it.
I loved making her cry..........LOVED IT! (it made me feel so bad, like i felt sad and gross).........i loved making her feel better. (it made me feel so good, warm and fuzzy)............

What part did you love most? The making her cry or making her feel better???

About the rolling around in pain thing……
Why you think you liked it?????

Why is being vulnerable your bliss?

LOL I told you why ; its the good and bad altogether…..being loved completely, and being sexually vulnerable is even more bliss to me. Its complete acceptance and at the same time this huge risk. Sex is where I think everyone has their vices…..if you are with someone you love…….then you can let them out there and be accepted and vice versa. Its a place where you can learn to trust and give and accept each other.

And, is that why you were with a Narc? Cause he'd hurt you? (you were always vulnerable)

We knew each other in HS. At first we were friends and I used to fix him up with people. I would ask him what he liked and wanted in a girl, then I would fix him up with my friends. Ns don't trust anyone. But I think he trusted me cause I wasn't going out with him. I put no limitations on him because we were not in a relationship. He could see more clearly that I was not in it for me but for him. But then he wanted me. And of course with a relationship there are expectations. He didn't want me to need anything from him. I did because everyone does in relationships. I was always honest with him. I think that is making yourself vulnerable. But I am like that in any relationship. I went back with him 28 yrs later because he said he was just a kid blah blah…..but that was a mistake because he was the same only worse. Much harder…..more closed. Not at first but later on….. Again I was always honest with him. But he never believed me. Ns live in a world of lies……..he thinks everyone is like him…..a liar. He would tell me what he thought I was thinking. He was ALWAYS wrong. But its like being insulted all the time. You hate my cooking, you don't like baseball, you are not happy…..blah blah He didn't love himself and projected that onto me. If you can't love yourself…..how can you love others? If you think you are unworthy…..how can you believe that others will think you are worthy? He was like a bottomless pit of needing to be the center of the world. But the thing is……you can't get that from someone else. It has to come from within. I can't make him feel like he is lovable if he doesn't believe he is himself. he is the one who defines himself. If he says to himself…..I am not lovable. Then who can change his mind? He has to change it himself.
I don't think he ever saw me. He saw what he wanted to see. So he really doesn't know me at all. Its his loss. I think he was afraid.

BTW..........THIS IS F#&&#ING LONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL

YES it is AGAIN TOO!!!

If you can change your thoughts you can change your life. I believe that VERY much because its what I experienced with the depression

Well, there you go. Then you should believe, changing your thoughts also changes reality.

No…..I think changing your thought changes perception or your personal truth. For example I can put a glass here and fill it half way with water……..you know the story…..is it half full or half empty. The reality of the glass, aned the amount of water and air in it never changes. This is a factual truth. Now of course you can change your personal truth and the reality of that. But its not the same thing.

I have to admit at first it felt weird. Like being on the moon.
I was having to tell myself things I didn't even really believe and I had to do things I never would have done, but the more I did the easier it became

Yes well, perhaps.....

My friend.....seems to think that hopefully (a different friend, the one whose boobs i haven't seen).....one day i'll be able to trust her.

Do you want to trust her? And if so why don't you????

by **ladyjello** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:35 am

WOW - ThisWayUp and TwistedMister - Fascinating, thought provoking, interesting posts.
Some of it sounded a bit like the "two sides of me" arguing inside my own head - or how i am at different times - seeing things postitivly then negatively, being optimistic and pessimistic, being realistic versus idealist or whatever.
Found my own middle for a time by accepting and valuing both sides but need a refresher course and intend to read/re-read more about ThisWayUp's "middle" to that end. Don't always feel everything is a choice though - elements of compulsion, conditioning that make things feel out of control at times.
But plenty for me to think about and perhaps get something positive from - so ta from an appreciative reader.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Want to contribute something -
It can been seen that there are two kinds of Truth.
Absolute, Objective Truth based in beliefs that can be verified, or disproven ie facts.
and
Realtive or Subjective Truths - related to our perceptions and therefore all different.

Of course, if you want to argue about whether something is Absolute or Relative .... :wink:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Faceless wrote:I haven't read any of the posts, and I don't know what part of the forum I'm in, all I read is the title.
But I just thought I'd stop by and say I'm really good at both.

LOL!

by **ThisEndUp** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:01 am

Hi Twisted I promised you I would go back and look at this and comment.

I have one good friend........but she HATES talking about stuff like this. She prefers to think of me as "Crazy" and just leave it at that.
It's hard........because i love talking about this.........i do want her to know me, cause why not? I think everything i say here makes me special/unqiue/better than YOU!!!! LOL..........i mean i don't really think that of course, but that's the feeling i get...........i make that distinction.

Ok.....I get that thoughts and feelings are separate. I want to clarify here what I think you are saying to me. It seems like you are saying: I think I am better then you- but I know ( intellectually) this is not true. However I feel that it is true.

I never feel I am better then anyone else. To me; me, you, my trashman, the Queen of England, the president, the janitor where I work , the drug dealer on the street, and Mother Thereasa are all the same. All have equal value and worth to me. No one is better then anyone else and in my eyes they all deserve equal consideration and respect. And this has to do with my idea that everyone is essentially good. If we are all good then how can anyone be better then anyone else? Now of course you can look at my list and say come on....how can all these people be equal? Its because I am not judging their worth and value as human beings. I am not judging their core or their self, because I have no right to do that. I don't have the information to do that and they are not part of my creation, they are part of someone elses creation, so I have no say in it anyway. The only thing I ever judge is their actions and how those effect me. Are they behaving in a way that is good for me? If the answer is no......they do not remain active in my life. At the same time they are a part of my life in that they have value and worth. They are a part of the overall plan, but I just don't know in what way. But they are not needed in my personal plan. Remember my plan is rooted in someone elses plan......its deep roots tell me to retain their value but to discard their actions and remove them physically from my life.. So I do. I also retain them as a reference on the bad side. In this position, their past bad actions can always be transformed into something good and if they somehow change, they also can become an active part of my life again. This is why for example....lets say I have a child and he becomes a drug addict. I would be driven to eventually remove him from my life. However if he were to change....he would become active again. At the same time while he may be inactive in my life........I can still love him. I can't control him though. Even though he is my son. He is still a separate individual, with his own life....his own truth and his own self.

Ok now.......lets me imagine I have no middle. No place where I create me and no plan to go by. See in my world the original plan....its not mine. My plan is within THAT plan. Like if someone was building a house. And this person has a house plan and I am the plumber so he gives me all the plumbing to do( my plan). Thats my job.......to do my plumbing, If the electrician were to come to me and say, "install this light" I would be like....WTF?!?!?! This is not part of my plan right now. I just don't see the significance. But if at some point I am installing the dishwasher and I need the electrician to hook it up and make things work.....well then he becomes part of my plan and I see where he fits in. He does his work and I do mine, but we also need each other to get the dishwasher going. Ok so.....but in this case lets say I have no good idea of the Master plan. Ijust walk into this jobsite. I see construction going on. I know something is happening ......I think are we building a house or a building or what here?? I just don't know what I am supposed to do. And since I don't know exactly what the master plan is......I am a bit confused and feel a bit like I don't belong. At the same time I feel like......###$ I am here so I must belong. I talk to people and they all have their plans....... I interact with them and some of them are nice to me, some I get close to, but after a while I start to interfere with their work because I am not helping them because I don't know the master plan so ....instead they are like WTF???. This makes me mad. Because they seem to be rejecting me. However they are not.......they just don't know where how I fit into their plan yet. So at this point I have one of 2 choices. I can either......ask someone what the plan is and ask how i might be included and start my own work. Or I can decide F**k em I will just do whatever I feel like doing with no plan. If I ignore them....then I am unique and special in the sense that I am different. I may even think I am better then them just because I am different. But ths feeling that I am better is just my personal truth. It is not theirs. They all think everyone is the same. They all think the only thing unique and special and better then anyone else is the Master planner or the creator. Cause he is the only one who really knows whats going on and to them.....he put you there. You didn't create yourself......so you must be part of the plan like everyone else. They have no ability to tell you the master plan........what one of them can tell you is what the main goals are.......Factual Truth, Personal Truth, and Unconditional Love. To follow these goals you need to trust in the Master planner the creator......cause he is the only one who knows what is going on. And though all the people you see doing work may not always be nice or act in ways which are good for you. Most of them will be aware of these basic goals. So when you pay attention to them or listen to them.......whenever they are doing something which is in line with meeting these goals......you can trust that they are being honest with you. However if I choose to not trust them and believe that there is no Factual truth.....its more likely I will just remain apart from them and do whatever I want. Now I know the issue of TRUST could be a whole other post! LOL

by **ThisEndUp** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:21 pm

ladyjello wrote: Don't always feel everything is a choice though - elements of compulsion, conditioning that make things feel out of control at times.
But plenty for me to think about and perhaps get something positive from - so ta from an appreciative reader.

Hi Lady,
I understand feeling like one has no choice very well.

I believe everyone is born thinking *I am good* or probably an even better way of putting it is *I am worthy*

And then our parents gets a hold of us, and depending on how abusive they are, this basic feeling is conditioned out. Actually I don't really believe its ever completely conditioned out totally. I do think it can become sortof dormant.

The other thing I think is that everything we do....every choice we make , and every action we take ( including our thoughts) reinforces whatever belief we hold about our true self.

So if your parents were very abusive, then as a child having no physical power, you would physically comply ( because you have no choice) and also in the middle or functioning part of your consciousness, the part where your true self would normally be, the child would mentally comply. ( think the way the parent conditioned you to think. So what I am saying is....if your subconscious good side is born saying: I am good, but your parents keep giving you the message that this is untrue, then your conscious thoughts or your self talk in the place where you operate from might be pretty negative. ( I suck, I can't do anything right, everyone hates me, I will never have what I want in life , I'm tired, I'm bored, I hate cats lol ect) But all that is programmed. The thing is .....this was initially forced on you as a child. You were powerless to it.

However by the time you are an adult , you are brainwashed and basically operating on Auto Pilot using the false messages instilled in you by the abusive parent. The message * I am worthy* from the True self is just covered over with years of actions, thoughts, and choices that we made to satisfy our parent instead of our good self. As an adult I think we do have a choice to change our thoughts, but there are a lot of reasons why this is difficult. One is because when we tell ourself the opposite: *I am productive* or *I can succeed.* It feels fake or wrong to us. Not because its untrue but because we never got those kindof messages before. And we have been programmed to believe something else about ourselves. And up until this point of awareness....every negative thing we thought or did has done nothing but reinforce the false belief about ourselves. Another reason its hard is because its a bad habit. Its so easy to do nothing. Doing nothing may not change things but it feels familiar and real. Also we may fear success or responsibility or something else. And some people like the pain or attention derived from this negative place. Not because they really like it but because its all they know. So if you wake up in the morning and think....UGH I am such a failure...and then you get depressed and do nothing, and of course who can be a success when they are doing nothing, then you go about the day reinforcing the lie your parents instilled.

I think the subconscious on the Good side, or the good inner child, feels a sense of injustice about this and wants this corrected. ALWAYS.....I think its like a nag......and the middle part from where people operate, the conscious part, is never completely at peace or stable or whatever you want to call it.......until this injustice is corrected. I think the injustice produces great ANGER. And some people turn the anger in and become depressed and other people are more inclined to lash out at others and rage. I think those kindof things go on till the injustice is dealt with on the conscious level.

It takes a long time to change our thoughts. And it feels VERY false for a while, because its so unfamiliar for us to hear those things about ourselves. But also the other thing is to ACT like these new thoughts are true. Our actions also reinforce our false beliefs if we let them. Like if I lay in bed and do nothing and declare I am productive. Well you can see thats just not gonna work! Ideally our thoughts and actions should match. It may feel strange and weird for a while But then after a time... things start to change. I have done this so I know it works.

The thing is to counteract these thoughts with their exact opposite.

I read somewhere it takes 300 positive self scripts to cancel out 1 negative!! A self script is another name for something you tell yourself. Anyway the really great thing I discovered doing this is you can have anything you want, be anything you want or do anything you want. Its like recreating a whole new life. And when you start getting good at thinking the positive thoughts, you start feeling more power and control over your life. When you feel that way you start feeling like you can do more and accomplish more. Once you start realising that you have this control over your life ....its amazing.

But like I said , it starts off feeling foreign and fake. I also think at some point ts important to deal with the injustice of childhood. The loss of the child you might have been, the parents you might have had......its like going through a death. You morn your childhood. But then when you acccept that you can't go back and change it, you start feeling free and focus on creating what you want in life via the new thoughts and actions,.

Hope I made sense .... I dont always say what I wanna say the way I wanna say it LOL!

Want to contribute something -
It can been seen that there are two kinds of Truth.
Absolute, Objective Truth based in beliefs that can be verified, or disproven ie facts.
and
Realtive or Subjective Truths - related to our perceptions and therefore all different.

Of course, if you want to argue about whether something is Absolute or Relative ....

I LOVE this! Thanks

by **Twistedmister** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:30 pm

Hello,

I haven't gotten a chance to get at your reply yet.........our talk, has become quite time consuming and although i like it, it's a problem for me.......procrastination. I should be working.....

Of course, i keep saying "one more post".......but that's why, the one more post hasn't been a reply. Cause i can't fool myself.....i know replying to you, will take some time probably............

That's why i'm just picking out this...........for now.

I believe everyone is born thinking

I wonder, what thought must be like for them..........do you think there is such a thing as worth in the mind of a newborn?

Sorry......i just think this is the problem with you! You believe a lot of crazy sh*t lady!

:mrgreen:

by **ThisEndUp** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:40 pm

Twistedmister wrote:

I believe everyone is born thinking

I wonder, what thought must be like for them..........do you think there is such a thing as worth in the mind of a newborn?

Sorry......i just think this is the problem with you! You believe a lot of crazy sh*t lady!

LOL! Well obviously I don't think they think like Einstein at that age. I think its more of a feeling which is reinforced....the baby is worthy......if its worthy people treat it as worthy......it feels worthy. But yeah I think there is some sense of worth at birth, be it a thought or a feeling or whatever......its the root......the origin. And to be honest its just too far back for me to remember LOL!

I understand about the replying . Don't worry about it take care of yourself, thats important

Omnipotence and Lying

Re: Omnipotence and Lying

ADVERTISEMENT

Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Re: Omnipotence and Lying

Who is online