Omnipotence and Lying

I understand a lot of advice is well intended, but the older I get the more I realize that giving advice is useless useless

Depends why..........i generally give advice, first and foremost as a display of my awesome intellectual brilliance. (or to sound less narc-y.....just as an exercise in thought)

Secondly, i do it for attention.....so others can comment on my brilliance.......


Thirdly, i do it to help people.


So, even if it is useless.......in that 3rd category........it's far from useless.

Twistedmister wrote:Depends why..........i generally give advice, first and foremost as a display of my awesome intellectual brilliance. (or to sound less narc-y.....just as an exercise in thought)

Secondly, i do it for attention.....so others can comment on my brilliance.......

LOL This just made me laugh. At the same time again.....I LOVE that its your truth. Put it out there!!!

AMEN! I don't feel like that though....mostly I do it for me. Writing how I feel about stuff....or writing what I believe in clarifies my beliefs for me a lot. Also.....when i write down what I believe it sometimes leads me to think about other things I believe only I haven't given them much thought yet.....like I believe something....but don't really know on a deeper level WHY I believe it, but then when I write stuff down I will get these aha moments for myself and I love that!

Thirdly, i do it to help people.

This is usually only a byproduct of me wanting to understand myself in writing down stuff. Like with you and me.....I consider this as a big table and we just sit here and throw our thoughts and beliefs on the table. I do it for me. You do it for your reasons.... now if someone comes along and starts saying to me....hey what you believe is helpful to me....can you expand on that or something.....then I am willing to help and I like that. I just don't like it as much as learning more about myself. Like I said.... for me its more of a byproduct of us just laying ourselves out there.
LOL God I must sound selfsh!! LOL But at the same time I know I LOVE people. In fact like with you......I get all fascinated and sh*t....so its not like I am ONLY focusing on me. I am definately focusing on you too. The amazing wonder that is you!! LOL I bet you like that very much! At the same time I am very much aware of our separateness......so you are like a piece of artwork to me in a way......an emotional artwork or something.....I get off on people like this. Its like a passion I have. I want to know all about them. I would love it if an N just let me ask them any questions I wanted and they just told me the absolute truth about everything. I know this would never happen cause I suspect some of my questions would become very difficult for them. And I would need the them to make the offer first anyway.....so in a way I am powerless to what someone offers me as far as this......I just have to take what I can get. But I DO take it and I enjoy the heck out of it.

So, even if it is useless.......in that 3rd category........it's far from useless.

Yeah helping people is good. Chalk on up for that side. And the middle LOL!!

ThisEndUp wrote:Hi Katana,
All I can do is tell you how I process it when something like this happens to me.
I think we all have self talk.
In a lot of ways our self talk sortof shapes our perception of the world.

Like if I FEEL depressed , I might say to myself, I can't do anything , I fail at everything I try, I never have what I want in life blah blah....

This is what I might tell myself INTERNALLY.

Of course the facts are that I can do stuff, I don't fail at everything I try and when I focus on something I want.....and take actions towards getting that....well eventually I do.

Self talk for me can be very good , when its good and very bad when its ugly.

I consider it a sort of mental reinforcement. The more negative messages I send myself this way....the more negative I become and this results in my actions being more negative as well.

Hi

Is ARRRGGGHHHH ######6 bastards! self talk ? lol (but also, seriously.)

I did read what you said, and i agree self-talk is important, but i'm not even sure how i could change my self-talk because its my underlying beliefs/perspective that (may be) the problem...

what you say about recognising they *can't* control me is probably very helpful in certain situations, right now i don't think i've even got as far as exact thought patterns and thought processes, but i will keep that in mind and think about it some more.

*BTW: message to loved ones who may be reading this - i'm going to describe some of the bad and the ugly below, and my sharp teeth and claws, and yes, thinking about what im writing here, some of it is pretty bad, but it doesn't mean i am nothing but sharp teeth and claws, or that i am going to bite! *

ThisEndUp wrote:Everyone is faced with people offering suggestions in life.......sometimes people don't even do that. Sometimes they wanna flat out tell you how to run your life. This feels worse to me then when someone is just putting suggestions on the table. It feels worse to anyone I would think. Control is control and who likes to be controlled???

agree. well i guess when talking about suggestions, i meant this bit more as a personal thing than necessarily triggering the control issues (depends who does it and how) but some of it is more a personal thing. e.g. i don't value others any less for not valuing themselves, and i also don't judge them, but i actually do value myself . - or at least i don't have a problem with underlying low self-esteem, and i'm currently not sure if that's healthy or a problem. or not.

so one side of it is just an ego thing, not like a falsely inflated ego thing, but from what i can tell, more a normal human self-identity ego thing. so if people make suggestions, and some things about me contradict that, so those issues are just ...not me. its not about judgement or anything like that, its more like suggesting to a cat that its upset because its a dog, even tho it is a cat...

and how i feel about it is more like, a cat doesn't mind watching a dog swim, but if you're planning to ask it to take a dip, hell no! lol So its a bit of an ego thing, but a normal one like, "oi, that's not me!" not like a false value judgement or something. - and no, i don't think people should stop doing that, sometimes they just try to interpret and interpret wrong, and i do that too, so i just need to get used to it. i can use the self talk thing there no problem.

control is only a problem there if i feel people are interpreting me as small and vulnerable, then is not directed at anyone, is just an less healthy ego function that kicks in because of my issues - i guess the more vulnerable side of that - insecurity about the possibility of people trying to control me if i was that.

but the other side of things, if it is done in the wrong way is that by making those sort of suggestions or approaching me as if they were true is that people (e.g. therapists) are trying to make me weak/vulnerable, put me below them etc. then that really does set off my issues a lot more.

ThisEndUp wrote:Ok here is the thing......after some time I realized....I have a lot of power here.
I can let someone go on and on and on and tell me all kinds of $#%^ and I never have to do anything.
I have the last word now. I ALWAYS do. I am an adult and people can suggest and try to force and manipulate and say anything.....and at the end. Its still my life and my choice to do whatever I want with it. So a lot of times.....I am like, talk away!!!! Get it out....make all your points.

I use people as a reference. Like books. Books I really care about but still books. And they have about as much power over me as books do too. This is why I guess I don't feel pushed by them. Even when some people TRY to push....and some try really hard. I don't feel too bad about it. Although when they push super hard I tend to feel REBELLION. Like I want to do the exact opposite of whatever it is they just told me. I used to do this a lot with my mom. She was very controlling.

I agree with what you say there, and about choosing whether to listen - i don't feel the need to do the opposite of what people suggest, lol, its not so much about that sort of rebellion as about threat>rage. Its more, I'll do whatever the hell i like, whether that is what they want or not, but if they try to exert control, by trying to control my actions, or by trying to push me down their heirarchy and expect me to swallow it up and accept their behaviour (more about how they act towards me, subtleties, non verbal cues etc.) and i read most people being "caring" as also trying to do that, not just people being overtly "authoritarian".

ThisEndUp wrote:When I was building my SELF......at some point I had this epiphany of sorts. It seems my goal in being rebellious was not wanting mom to CONTROL me.

though my reaction isn't to do the opposite, - or exactly being rebellious, its more to attack/destroy what they're trying at, to get one over on them so they back off. (this makes sense with growing up in a physically violent household - purposefully doing the opposite would have only got me beaten up more, instead i had to try to destroy him so he couldn't destroy me - i had to take control away from him. i guess this is what "wanting to kill my dad" has been about without the need for intense hatred, if i feel threatened, my response to that threat is to remove it, lol. so in the end, it comes back to basic survival instinct i guess.

and i wonder if freezing and being passive-agressively non active on things (not doing them) may have more to do with my mum... ?

ThisEndUp wrote:Yet I realized that my doing ONLY the opposite was still allowing her to control me in a backwards sortof way, because it made me just as powerless over my choices in the sense that they were always opposite, but not necessarily in my best interest!! Not everything my mom said was bad or even something I didn't actually WANT for myself......so I felt like if I considered it and weighed to myself weather or not I thought it was good for me......asked myself if it alligned with what I really wanted or needed, then I was in some way TAKING it away from her and making it MINE. If it was good for me and what I wanted.

True. I agree. And well done for realising! if someone makes a suggestion i don't like about how to run my life (without getting all authoritarian about it), i just tell them no thanks, that's not what i want to do - unless i feel like they are trying to e.g. tell a cat its a dog, then i might get a little tetchy, but i think that isn't really a disordered thing and is a normal human reaction that needs to learn a little more patience/acceptance - or less defensiveness - maybe its not the actual thing, but its a big red flag to me because people tried to tell me "what i was" as a kid, if there is any chance i percieve something that way, it sets off my paranoia and defensiveness.

if they get authoritarian, that's when i get angry, and usually don't have any trouble dealing with it, by being a little mean, and probably causing hurt/discomfort in the process, but they caused me hurt/discomfort by acting that way.

i admit, people might find me intimidating in those circumstances, but then they just tried to exert control over me! - the only difference is theirs was wrapped up in a "socially acceptable" delivery, and mine might not be, or they think something about their position gives them the "right" when in my books, no one has the right to control me.

i say intimidating not bullying because i've always seen bullying as picking on people smaller and weaker than you to make yourself feel bigger, and that isn't something i do (to be very honest i see it as pathetic - i know, judgemental.) but i admit i can be guilty of intimidation, and possibly wrongly because i may overeact because of my problems, and there might be more rational ways to deal with those situations.

the funny thing is, i know i have come down hard on other people for their actions - but its not that i think i have more right than they do, its that i should have the right to do whatever the hell i want, they should have the right to do whatever the hell they want, but where i am concerned, if what they are trying at involves controlling me, they can go ###$ themselves, lol.

same way, if i treat people in ways they don't like, i don't believe they have to just sit there and take it either. i also admit, i'm ok if i'm in charge, but power isn't a need - not something i have to have to be able to be functional - as long as i am in charge of myself, i don't need to be in charge of others.

give me flat structure without heirarchy, and i'm way less of a problem, lol. but i know i don't always act that way... and if everyone saw things and reacted the way i do, there would be a hell of a lot of conflict.

It all sounds very worryingly like "they deserved it".

ThisEndUp wrote:I guess thats when I realized that I don't HAVE to do anything ANYONE tells me to do because I always have the last say in the matter. With the rebellion.... I mean it got to the point where.....if she said you need to be neater- I got sloppier! You need to study- I studied even less. You need to keep your mouth shut- I talked more. One of the few times this ever REALLY served me well was when she said: You can't go to college- I went! LOL Foiled mom again!!!

Glad it helped you somewhere! I agree about situations when you don't have to do what people are trying to make you do, that stuff i tend to react to just with anger/resentment, and the biggest place i get that from is mum. but the places i REALLY run into trouble (the reasons i fall apart) are the ones where i can't do anything about the situation.

(getting academic about it, representative of situations where a fight response made sense - in fight/flight, used when there is a mortal threat and flight isn't possible) where people have a "right" to control me, or where its a big corporation or something, and i can't do anything about it especially when under stress.

when i can't do anything about the situation that's when the rage goes haywire and everything goes bang... then when the fight response fails, they say its like when animals are facing impending death and have no way out at all they just freeze, which is kind of a good way of relating what happens to me, and this is when the depression kicks in,

so i guess these are typical responses to percieved situations, but very bad coping strategies for life. they seem to be coming from a perception and experience of the world and/or human interactions that most people don't seem to share, and also the responses i have learned to various things might also be incorrect and need "reprogramming" some other way, hopefully CBT will help with that.

at that point, it gets in the way and stops me doing even what i would want to do, because the situation has triggered the problem that severely. sounds not too bad... but we live in a world where people are supposed to be able to force you to do all sorts. its been a problem to the point that i've gone nuts over a demand for council tax.

I don't have to do the opposite, and i can choose to do what i want to do - until it gets to the point where i lose control and am unable to do what i want to do because there is just so much anger/rage.

its not a conscious desicion to be awkward, i think its how i see things being different making me really mad about stuff other people don't seem to get really mad about, and aware if i just go ahead and do stuff anyway, they will still be able to control me, cause i'd get sacked/chucked out if its study, or could get put in jail.

most of the time, i have enough self-control not to do those things, but the result of self-control is depression, which even if i don't lose my job/study over the 1st problem, tend to lose it over the depression that self-control causes if the 1st bit doesn't get me. I've screwed up entire big/important things over reactions to very trivial things.

That's the thing - the issue is that bad/that extreme, that instead of stopping at mean behaviour it completely incapacitates me and sends me off the rails

Its the same thing that happened when i was a teenager, but i hadn't yet felt the worst of what stuff did, because it took for me to get to an age where my actions resulted in real consequences, not just ones that didn't really affect me, like getting in trouble at school. i was depressed, - the doctors refused to listen to me... so i made them listen (with lies - back to the original thread title somewhere at least, lol.) then they tried to take power away from me... so i took it back and manipulated them all heheheh ..er, yeah. right.

and i really couldn't see how my perspective was seriously screwed there. i literally had no idea and didn't care either. whether they were being manipulated by a patient or not probably didn't even make a damned difference in their lives, and in the end the person i manipulated... was me. there isn't a smiley that really goes right here is there.

ThisEndUp wrote:But in reality ...after a while I guess I thought that just doing the opposite was, in a way, leaving me JUST as out of control as doing what she told me to do. Because in both of those circumstances I never gave anything any thought.....never even considered ME and what I wanted or needed! I was important. I knew what I needed more then anyone, so I felt like I was not really stepping up to the plate and making my own choices till this epiphany. Then I became power hungry.......People became references and I could read them all I wanted and take all the best things for myself!! MUHAHAHAHAHA!! LOL

And I could leave the rest..... if I didn't like what they said or didn't agree or felt like it wasn't going to do anything for me.....then I just ignored it, or I just said no. Sometimes I like listening to people go on and on and take SOME of what they say but not all. Sometimes I allow myself to be amused by their efforts if they are REALLY controlling and REALLY trying to change my mind. I can't believe ALL that EFFORT they are putting into me, when they could be using it to run their own life!

LOL at the power hungry!

i get what you're saying, i agree any out of control reaction to something is really taking power away from you, because its preventing you being able to make your own desicions. In your case your mom was getting the say, in my case, my issues end up controlling me - and technically it opens up the possibility for others to be able to do the same too.

ThisEndUp wrote:If someone is abusive- generally I have found that their life is no picnic in the park. With them I sometimes say.....when you can run your own life then you can start telling me how to run mine. This usually shuts them up. I used to say this to the N ex all the time and he always got quiet.

People usually have good intentions though.....I mean so it doesn't hurt me to listen and like I said.....I never feel pushed so much anymore because I realize all the power lays with me in the end.

I guess there are different ways and reasons for/of being abusive...
@ the wine, artichokes and soggy bread! the wine... well its easier to share one bottle than open 2, but most red wine seems to keep quite well, even after opening it so it doesn't really matter that much. Artichokes? If you don't eat them, it leaves more of them for him, lol. soggy bread.... WTF ?!! lol

i guess controlling other people's eating habits isn't my issue, lucky since i seem to have plenty of my own.

.... interesting way of thinking about things with good & bad acts btw - that bad acts are really potentially unfinished acts? hopefully helpful for a lot of people on these forums who struggle with good vs bad.

oh to add another to the stuff about motivations for posting, personally, my own intellectualisations are both getting my thoughts down and trying to make sense of them for myself, and putting my stuff on the table with others and hoping between us all we can make some sense of what we are thinking and feeling. sometimes one person can explain another person is clueless about and vice versa.

i find researching some theoretical stuff is really helpful with working through my own issues and making sense of them, so i post stuff, cause i find it helps me, and think it may or may not also help others. posting helps me get my thoughts straight with stuff too.

so for me its both selfish and !hopefully! also mutually helpful. Sometimes i do stuff just to help others too. i don't care so much for attention, but i like interaction, and things to do.

katana wrote:control is only a problem there if i feel people are interpreting me as small and vulnerable, then is not directed at anyone, is just an less healthy ego function that kicks in because of my issues - i guess the more vulnerable side of that - insecurity about the possibility of people trying to control me if i was that.

Hi Katana,
Wanted to answer you.....
Did you feel small and vulnerable as a child? Like powerless sometimes?

but the other side of things, if it is done in the wrong way is that by making those sort of suggestions or approaching me as if they were true is that people (e.g. therapists) are trying to make me weak/vulnerable, put me below them etc. then that really does set off my issues a lot more.

Ok I just want to make sure I am understanding you here......When this happens....are they trying to get you in touch with the feelings you had back in childhood or am I misunderstanding? Is it a scarey thing or what? Are they asking you questions when this happens or telling you who you are? Its hard for me to picture a scenerio I guess. So I just want to understand where you are coming from.

Damn you said something about people being authoritarian and I deleted it by accident. But I wanted to comment on that. I used to get real mad when people told me stuff sometimes and I perceived it as a threat. And sometimes I remember I would walk away after getting mad at them and think about it later on and think to myself.......they were right! LOL I can think of this one incident in particular. A bunch of us at work were talking about someone. Gossiping. We all knew this person and she was a friend and I guess to our lil group. It didn't FEEL like gossip. Sortof like......no one can talk bad about your family but you.... type of feeling. But this lady was new and kinda churchy and it offended her and she said something to us. I said something mean in return. Cause I got mad. She didn't know us.....and blah blah blah....... but later I thought to myself......some people like porn and some don't.....people have strong opinions on it....and yet....its kinda personal, at the same time.....kinda not if its the wrong place or time...
And I thought to myself that just because I may not completely agree with her take on things.........didn't mean I had to throw it in her face. I didn't think I was being fair to her really. I mean I don't like a lot of stuff and generally I can avoid it. But who knows......if it was in my face.......I might get upset. Other stuff I like but I know it shouldn't be in someone elses face. It offended her. And in truth....we weren't being kind. Even though we all told ourselves it was all in fun. Anyway....I am not saying you do this and in fact my story is not so much about WHAT we were doing as how I perceived her as a THREAT!!! LOL When I look back now she wasn't mean. She was assertive. She just said....I don't like to listen to that. And when I just looked at those words.......I had to notice she didn't actually put me down, she didn't say I was wrong or bad. She was talking about herself!!!! Her likes and her dislikes. And they were not mine in that moment. Anyway......For me ......this was a little problem.......seeing threats and put downs where it was really the other person being assertive about their values or creating a boundary. I think I put my parents in her place. Only she wasn't them. She was someone else. And shes got a right to like what she wants and to not like what she wants. And she has a right not to have her dislikes thrown in her face. So I guess that would be my issue with authority. I tend to believe all authority figures are my parents.......unless they are nice....then they are Mother Theresa!! LOL!!!

though my reaction isn't to do the opposite, - or exactly being rebellious, its more to attack/destroy what they're trying at, to get one over on them so they back off. (this makes sense with growing up in a physically violent household - purposefully doing the opposite would have only got me beaten up more, instead i had to try to destroy him so he couldn't destroy me - i had to take control away from him. i guess this is what "wanting to kill my dad" has been about without the need for intense hatred, if i feel threatened, my response to that threat is to remove it, lol. so in the end, it comes back to basic survival instinct i guess.

yeah this all makes a lot of sense

and i wonder if freezing and being passive-agressively non active on things (not doing them) may have more to do with my mum... ?

I dunno you mad at her???

i admit, people might find me intimidating in those circumstances, but then they just tried to exert control over me! - the only difference is theirs was wrapped up in a "socially acceptable" delivery, and mine might not be, or they think something about their position gives them the "right" when in my books, no one has the right to control me.

I agree no one has the right to control you. But with jobs....well we sortof give them a bit of a right no???? I mean we take money and they expect something in return. So its at least a better situation in that respect then I had at home!! LOL At least I am being paid to be bossed around now!!

I have to say I don't work for people if I don't like their mission statement! LOL I mean its true.....I used to get pissed when people complained at work .....I felt like....if you don't like it leave! I leave if I don't like the ethics of a place or the way its run at the top. I have to be able to give my all.....and if things are shady at the top....I just can't support that.
I also had a boss once who was an N. I used to see him as a little boy all the time in my mind.....like a big overgrown 240 lb toddler....and I have to say I took him much better LOL

the funny thing is, i know i have come down hard on other people for their actions - but its not that i think i have more right than they do, its that i should have the right to do whatever the hell i want, they should have the right to do whatever the hell they want, but where i am concerned, if what they are trying at involves controlling me, they can go ###$ themselves, lol.

LOL you GO girl!!

It tough to have someone in charge who is a jerk. I mean no two ways about that. Some people in charge get pretty power crazy and can be very difficult to work with. I have the best boss now. Oh my god I love her. And after having her.....I don;t think I will ever put up with a bad boss again! I would want to follow her wherever she goes.

same way, if i treat people in ways they don't like, i don't believe they have to just sit there and take it either. i also admit, i'm ok if i'm in charge, but power isn't a need - not something i have to have to be able to be functional - as long as i am in charge of myself, i don't need to be in charge of others.

I actually have a problem being in charge. I turned down positions because I didn;t want to be in charge. I felt like what is wrong with these people thinking me....the major screwup shoild be in charge. My parents again.....to them I did absolutely NOTHING right. So I feel like if I am not in charge of anything.....its that much less I can be blamed for LOL!! Plus I occasionally like to goof off and would not be a good example.

Glad it helped you somewhere! I agree about situations when you don't have to do what people are trying to make you do, that stuff i tend to react to just with anger/resentment, and the biggest place i get that from is mum. but the places i REALLY run into trouble (the reasons i fall apart) are the ones where i can't do anything about the situation.

I don't often feel powerless. I mean certainly in the moment I do sometimes......but like if its really a bad job or something.......I start making plans to leave. I gotta have my choices or I would go bananas. But I can over react sometimes. I did a lot of anger work. It helped me a lot. Seeing it as a signal......feeling it when its small.....dealing with it assertively and not waiting till I want to EXPLODE!!! LOL It takes some adjusting though.....there was a lot of screaming and hollering in my house growing up.....so thats what I know.....its what I can go into if I am not careful.

most of the time, i have enough self-control not to do those things, but the result of self-control is depression, which even if i don't lose my job/study over the 1st problem, tend to lose it over the depression that self-control causes if the 1st bit doesn't get me. I've screwed up entire big/important things over reactions to very trivial things.

I was depressed as a kid......I went on meds in my 20s......and realized I thought depression was normal! I am good now.....I talked about it way back. I don't know what its like for you....but in some weird way I liked it. It was all I knew......felt weird to be normal for a while.....but I like it now. Getting away from my family helped TREMENDOUSLY! lol

That's the thing - the issue is that bad/that extreme, that instead of stopping at mean behaviour it completely incapacitates me and sends me off the rails

I can't imagine.....I mean don't get me wrong.....have had like one or 2 crazy melt downs in my life......but I think would wear me out and kinda be frightening if I had more then that.. How you feel when its going on???

.... interesting way of thinking about things with good & bad acts btw - that bad acts are really potentially unfinished acts? hopefully helpful for a lot of people on these forums who struggle with good vs bad.

Yes I do see them as unfinished. And I think if they get left unfinished they kindof pile up in the mind and reinforce a persons feeling that they are unworthy or a bad person. Its like shaming themselves because they are never finished. I think parents get that ball rollin and then at some point people go on autopilot. Guilt can be very crippling. But also I think it can be hard to sort out healthy guilt from unhealthy guilt if someone had an abusive childhood. Anyway thats my take on it. Thanks for sharing that.

katana wrote: i actually do value myself . - or at least i don't have a problem with underlying low self-esteem, and i'm currently not sure if that's healthy or a problem. or not.

I wonder if that is what allows you to express your anger to others?
Some circumstances I find it very hard to express anger - don't even feel I should/could use those rage smilies!

katana wrote: ... if they try to exert control, by trying to control my actions, or by trying to push me down their heirarchy and expect me to swallow it up and accept their behaviour

hate people doing this kind of stuff - if its in work I end up hating it and getting really stressed there or end up hating them and leaving ... some of them seem to think they bought your soul for the minimum wage. Never consistently mastered dealing these issues with family and friends - so repeatedly get "triggered"

katana wrote:(getting academic about it, representative of situations where a fight response made sense - in fight/flight, used when there is a mortal threat and flight isn't possible) where people have a "right" to control me, or where its a big corporation or something, and i can't do anything about it especially when under stress.
when i can't do anything about the situation that's when the rage goes haywire and everything goes bang... then when the fight response fails, they say its like when animals are facing impending death and have no way out at all they just freeze, which is kind of a good way of relating what happens to me, and this is when the depression kicks in,
so i guess these are typical responses to percieved situations, but very bad coping strategies for life. they seem to be coming from a perception and experience of the world and/or human interactions that most people don't seem to share, and also the responses i have learned to various things might also be incorrect and need "reprogramming" some other way, hopefully CBT will help with that.
at that point, it gets in the way and stops me doing even what i would want to do, because the situation has triggered the problem that severely. sounds not too bad... but we live in a world where people are supposed to be able to force you to do all sorts. its been a problem to the point that i've gone nuts over a demand for council tax.
I don't have to do the opposite, and i can choose to do what i want to do - until it gets to the point where i lose control and am unable to do what i want to do because there is just so much anger/rage.
its not a conscious desicion to be awkward, i think its how i see things being different making me really mad about stuff other people don't seem to get really mad about, and aware if i just go ahead and do stuff anyway, they will still be able to control me, cause i'd get sacked/chucked out if its study, or could get put in jail.
most of the time, i have enough self-control not to do those things, but the result of self-control is depression, which even if i don't lose my job/study over the 1st problem, tend to lose it over the depression that self-control causes if the 1st bit doesn't get me. I've screwed up entire big/important things over reactions to very trivial things.
That's the thing - the issue is that bad/that extreme, that instead of stopping at mean behaviour it completely incapacitates me and sends me off the rails

I totally understand all this. Had fight/flight crisies at work. Get really angry about issues that others don't seem to care about, then gget annoyed at them for not caring. I think the only difference is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you express your anger outwardly more ( I'll have to look back the internalising ve externalising thread) while i might just seeth with inner rage, unless drunk. But these things lead to depression in us both. How easy life would be if we didn't care so much about stuff it causes such rage and despair!?

ThisEndUp wrote:Ok here is the thing......after some time I realized....I have a lot of power here.
I can let someone go on and on and on and tell me all kinds of $#%^ and I never have to do anything ... So a lot of times.....I am like, talk away!!!! Get it out....make all your points.

lol
very "triggering" to me to me to be told what to do - sometimes don't say anything, sometimes get angry inside at them or confused and annoyed at myself because they were probably right and i was wrong! Occasionally, I intended to agree, or pretend to in order to avoid hassle, but could not do it and had to argue back or at least give a lot of justifications of myself , which I now am beginning to see is just giving them power over me.

ThisEndUp wrote:People usually have good intentions though

Used to think so but not so sure now, hopefully this is just a "bitter phase" and will pass - some of you on here seem ok though!

i get angry at people if I try to meet them eye to eye so to speak and everything that comes out of my mouth seems ot be alien. Or everything they say I have already labelled as unhelpful or stupid. it is like " You just don't understand!!!" but then even if they try to I freeze up or do not want toshare with them....so I am basically getting angry at them for not being helpful,yet I am not giving them all the information about what I need help with...or what I am trying to say.

So I guess I am passive aggressive .

ThisEndUp wrote:Hi Katana,
Wanted to answer you.....

Hi ok, here's my attempt at a reply, but trying to explain this stuff honestly without restraint my disorder is going to show a bit, so i may sound nuts.

ThisEndUp wrote:Did you feel small and vulnerable as a child? Like powerless sometimes?

Mostly as a child I felt absolutely livid about people trying to make me powerless. I didn't feel small and vulnerable as much as a felt a refusal to be small and vulnerable. i guess maybe i did when i was very very small? (i'm sure i must have done,) but its hard to exactly remember properly, especially when my issues make me defensive.

ThisEndUp wrote:Ok I just want to make sure I am understanding you here......When this happens....are they trying to get you in touch with the feelings you had back in childhood or am I misunderstanding? Is it a scarey thing or what? Are they asking you questions when this happens or telling you who you are? Its hard for me to picture a scenerio I guess. So I just want to understand where you are coming from.

They're trying to tell me who i am by being "nice" and "caring" like "aawwwww you pooor little thing!" which would imply that im something small and weak that needs treating that way, so then i feel like i want to control them. i dont get that on this forum, only with therapists, cause here people are just in the same boat and trying to help each other out, and that is ok. i think there is also a certain amount of denial/defense about facing my own issues too. Or they are directly trying to tell me who i am by assuming i feel how i "should" about the things im talking about.

then most of it ends up as a power struggle with the therapist maybe because they don't realise the approach they take is interpreted by me like that, or maybe just cause im a bit ###$ up lol, even if most people find it reassuring, and of course i always "win", (you want to try to make me feel small and vulnerable do you ? ) lol. (i know - ) which wins me crap all LOL. the therapist gets upset, and obviously have to take care of themselves... so i guess im a "difficult" patient because i tend to end up wanting therapist on toast for breakfast. most of it is subconcious in therapy, not intentional, and i try to fight it but i don't tend to do very well.

ThisEndUp wrote:Damn you said something about people being authoritarian and I deleted it by accident. But I wanted to comment on that. I used to get real mad when people told me stuff sometimes and I perceived it as a threat. And sometimes I remember I would walk away after getting mad at them and think about it later on and think to myself.......they were right! LOL I can think of this one incident in particular. A bunch of us at work were talking about someone. Gossiping. We all knew this person and she was a friend and I guess to our lil group. It didn't FEEL like gossip. Sortof like......no one can talk bad about your family but you.... type of feeling. But this lady was new and kinda churchy and it offended her and she said something to us. I said something mean in return. Cause I got mad. She didn't know us.....and blah blah blah....... but later I thought to myself......some people like porn and some don't.....people have strong opinions on it....and yet....its kinda personal, at the same time.....kinda not if its the wrong place or time...
And I thought to myself that just because I may not completely agree with her take on things.........didn't mean I had to throw it in her face. I didn't think I was being fair to her really. I mean I don't like a lot of stuff and generally I can avoid it. But who knows......if it was in my face.......I might get upset. Other stuff I like but I know it shouldn't be in someone elses face. It offended her. And in truth....we weren't being kind. Even though we all told ourselves it was all in fun. Anyway....I am not saying you do this and in fact my story is not so much about WHAT we were doing as how I perceived her as a THREAT!!! LOL When I look back now she wasn't mean. She was assertive. She just said....I don't like to listen to that. And when I just looked at those words.......I had to notice she didn't actually put me down, she didn't say I was wrong or bad. She was talking about herself!!!! Her likes and her dislikes. And they were not mine in that moment. Anyway......For me ......this was a little problem.......seeing threats and put downs where it was really the other person being assertive about their values or creating a boundary. I think I put my parents in her place. Only she wasn't them. She was someone else. And shes got a right to like what she wants and to not like what she wants. And she has a right not to have her dislikes thrown in her face. So I guess that would be my issue with authority. I tend to believe all authority figures are my parents.......unless they are nice....then they are Mother Theresa!! LOL!!!

I don't mind if someone says "please don't talk about that in front of me because it makes me uncomfortable". I don't have a problem with it. Its only when they come across authoritarian or act like they think they can tell me what to do. As far as authority goes, i don't believe any person has the right to exert it over me just because they or someone else thinks they do. there is no such thing as "authority" (boil it down logically and its true, even when you look at the fact others will be better at and more experienced at some things than i am, its my choice to learn from them and listen to their advice, why should it give them any right to try to order me around?)

I don't see threats and put downs, i just see people trying to control me. (though that is probably also the biggest threat and put-down imaginable to me) If someone has a problem with something i say or do and they have no control or don't try to exert control, it doesn't bother me. Its just the control thing.

I get what you're saying about the lady being assertive, and getting it wrong. on one hand i can respect people who stick up for themselves, on the other hand if they do it the "wrong" way, (like they are trying to exert authority, control or "put me in my place") then i go nuts at them.

Sometimes the problem i have isn't seeing how they're responding (i think) so much as being unable to respond rationally if a person sets off my issues but is also right, it makes me unable to respond how would logically make sense (if they weren't taking that attitude) and i'll respond agressively even if idea behind what they are saying is right because i don't give a damn whether they are right or wrong they aren't going to do that (and be able to admit i am wrong at the same time) but its not about right and wrong its about "###$ you!" lol

- the worst one is when people start trying to lecture me about the consequences of my actions as if i was a little kid or something, and my attitude is shut up you stupid ###$ because they don't get it that i can understand what they're saying without needing to explain it to me cause im not bloody stupid! i've had this problem since ive been at school, they talk to me like im an idiot and im not a ######6 idiot! if i can't control my actions or act according to consequences/learn how to act differently because of stuff that happens, its like asking me to bake a cake without any ingredients and then yelling at me and explaining patronising $#%^ about how to mix cake when i have nothing to mix it with, and maybe i don't even want to bake a ######6 cake!

ThisEndUp wrote:

and i wonder if freezing and being passive-agressively non active on things (not doing them) may have more to do with my mum... ?

I dunno you mad at her???

i get mad at her pretty often, but am beginning to realise i actually get mad at everyone

ThisEndUp wrote:I agree no one has the right to control you. But with jobs....well we sortof give them a bit of a right no???? I mean we take money and they expect something in return. So its at least a better situation in that respect then I had at home!! LOL At least I am being paid to be bossed around now!!

I have to say I don't work for people if I don't like their mission statement! LOL I mean its true.....I used to get pissed when people complained at work .....I felt like....if you don't like it leave! I leave if I don't like the ethics of a place or the way its run at the top. I have to be able to give my all.....and if things are shady at the top....I just can't support that.
I also had a boss once who was an N. I used to see him as a little boy all the time in my mind.....like a big overgrown 240 lb toddler....and I have to say I took him much better LOL

Lol at the 240lb toddler thing! Well... not exactly to me, to me its a simple exachange: goods/services<>money. I will never "give my all" as a person, i'll always remain separate from it - its just a job. I'm 100% for good customer service, and completing work to a reasonable standard, but the right to boss me around is not included in the pay packet. not to say i won't take instructions related to work, but that's it - they have the right to direct me on what work is getting done and it goes no further.

ThisEndUp wrote:LOL you GO girl!!

It tough to have someone in charge who is a jerk. I mean no two ways about that. Some people in charge get pretty power crazy and can be very difficult to work with. I have the best boss now. Oh my god I love her. And after having her.....I don;t think I will ever put up with a bad boss again! I would want to follow her wherever she goes.

Lol! downside is it can tend to get you sacked I guess that's the thing with me, i could never follow any boss wherever they go but i guess i am not a following sort of person. i get on with bosses who just get on with their job treat me like an equal and don't care what i do as long as the job gets done. i was lucky once - one of my bosses was ex army and used to dealing with all sorts of people, he seemed to know what to avoid dealing with me, but not everyone can be expected to have those skills.

ThisEndUp wrote:I actually have a problem being in charge. I turned down positions because I didn;t want to be in charge. I felt like what is wrong with these people thinking me....the major screwup shoild be in charge. My parents again.....to them I did absolutely NOTHING right. So I feel like if I am not in charge of anything.....its that much less I can be blamed for LOL!! Plus I occasionally like to goof off and would not be a good example.

lol at liking to goof off occasionally, but then you're only human. That's pretty mean of your parents to say that stuff to you the bit about being blamed does make sense though, lol and i know a few people who have turned down jobs for the same reason! lol. at the moment, i turn down being in charge cause im not really up to anything much, including managing myself or working under anyone else, (stupid issues keep flairing up and don't give me much notice.)
I guess its learning that your parents aren't there standing over you whatever you're doing, and that what they said isn't true!

ThisEndUp wrote:I don't often feel powerless. I mean certainly in the moment I do sometimes......but like if its really a bad job or something.......I start making plans to leave. I gotta have my choices or I would go bananas. But I can over react sometimes. I did a lot of anger work. It helped me a lot. Seeing it as a signal......feeling it when its small.....dealing with it assertively and not waiting till I want to EXPLODE!!! LOL It takes some adjusting though.....there was a lot of screaming and hollering in my house growing up.....so thats what I know.....its what I can go into if I am not careful.

Lol, i've just tended to not take $#%^ from people at work, lol. doesn't stop me wanting to explode, because i have a problem. If i don't like a job i leave, but the problem is usually the thing that is there all the time, which either makes it "them" or "me" LOL. I know how to be assertive, so that isn't the problem.

ThisEndUp wrote:I was depressed as a kid......I went on meds in my 20s......and realized I thought depression was normal! I am good now.....I talked about it way back. I don't know what its like for you....but in some weird way I liked it. It was all I knew......felt weird to be normal for a while.....but I like it now. Getting away from my family helped TREMENDOUSLY! lol

I thought depression was normal for a long time, i realise now that its not, but antidepressants just made me lazy and lethargic, and made me care less about being depressed.

ThisEndUp wrote:

That's the thing - the issue is that bad/that extreme, that instead of stopping at mean behaviour it completely incapacitates me and sends me off the rails

I can't imagine.....I mean don't get me wrong.....have had like one or 2 crazy melt downs in my life......but I think would wear me out and kinda be frightening if I had more then that.. How you feel when its going on???

....angry. LOL agitated/stressed/driven, like i have to sort it out NOW! actually angry doesn't really cut it, absolutely livid. and at the same time completely calm, like cold rage...and at the same time, desperate. not like emotional sort of desperate, like angry, empty sort of desperate. and if i retaliate kind of high on it. then it sends me off the rails when i can't do anything about it, and then i end up depressed, i think i just give up and turn the anger inwards, and then its exhausting - full scale burnout, intense psychological pain and depression like drive-off-nearest-bridge type depression. that's why im not working or studying right now

ThisEndUp wrote:

.... interesting way of thinking about things with good & bad acts btw - that bad acts are really potentially unfinished acts? hopefully helpful for a lot of people on these forums who struggle with good vs bad.

Yes I do see them as unfinished. And I think if they get left unfinished they kindof pile up in the mind and reinforce a persons feeling that they are unworthy or a bad person. Its like shaming themselves because they are never finished. I think parents get that ball rollin and then at some point people go on autopilot. Guilt can be very crippling. But also I think it can be hard to sort out healthy guilt from unhealthy guilt if someone had an abusive childhood. Anyway thats my take on it. Thanks for sharing that.

I can see how that might happen, if people feel guilt and then don't sort that guilt of course it will all pile up, just like all the rage from my childhood seems to have done which must be horrible for the person who has all that guilt because they'd probably have guilt from all of those things at the same time, and i'd imagine it would be hard to sort unhealthy guilt/shame from the healthy stuff, i can't always tell with the anger.

-- Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:07 am --

ladyjello wrote:

katana wrote: i actually do value myself . - or at least i don't have a problem with underlying low self-esteem, and i'm currently not sure if that's healthy or a problem. or not.

I wonder if that is what allows you to express your anger to others?
Some circumstances I find it very hard to express anger - don't even feel I should/could use those rage smilies!

I guess maybe, i don't know, i know its possible for people with low self-esteem to express anger, i guess it depends where the anger is coming from. Sometimes i try not to express my anger, but not out of lack of confidence more for other reasons, and in other ways i struggle to express it. i'm not always great at shouting and screaming verbally or something, though i can speak my mind all right and act on it. or if i lose control i just get violent and smash stuff. but that doesn't happen unless people wind me up.

ladyjello wrote:

katana wrote: ... if they try to exert control, by trying to control my actions, or by trying to push me down their heirarchy and expect me to swallow it up and accept their behaviour

hate people doing this kind of stuff - if its in work I end up hating it and getting really stressed there or end up hating them and leaving ... some of them seem to think they bought your soul for the minimum wage. Never consistently mastered dealing these issues with family and friends - so repeatedly get "triggered"

i know exactly what you mean, they're not having my damn soul for that price, im sure i can get a better offer than that!

ladyjello wrote:I totally understand all this. Had fight/flight crisies at work. Get really angry about issues that others don't seem to care about, then gget annoyed at them for not caring. I think the only difference is that (correct me if I'm wrong) you express your anger outwardly more ( I'll have to look back the internalising ve externalising thread) while i might just seeth with inner rage, unless drunk. But these things lead to depression in us both. How easy life would be if we didn't care so much about stuff it causes such rage and despair!?

the problem is (lol) "if i stop caring that people are trying to control me then they'll be able to control me". I don't know if im all that expressive about my anger, but i definitely tend to act on it.

ladyjello wrote:

ThisEndUp wrote:Ok here is the thing......after some time I realized....I have a lot of power here.
I can let someone go on and on and on and tell me all kinds of $#%^ and I never have to do anything ... So a lot of times.....I am like, talk away!!!! Get it out....make all your points.

lol
very "triggering" to me to me to be told what to do - sometimes don't say anything, sometimes get angry inside at them or confused and annoyed at myself because they were probably right and i was wrong! Occasionally, I intended to agree, or pretend to in order to avoid hassle, but could not do it and had to argue back or at least give a lot of justifications of myself , which I now am beginning to see is just giving them power over me.

I just want to smack them over the head with something heavy so they'll STFU. LOL trouble is i can't get away with that yes, sometimes they are right, but its not whether what they are saying is right or wrong is the problem for me, just that they are trying to control me. of course if they are right, it makes me look like an idiot, but then i just feel like smacking them one and then saying "by the way, you were right." lol

-- Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:09 am --

------

JPKAS wrote:i get angry at people if I try to meet them eye to eye so to speak and everything that comes out of my mouth seems ot be alien. Or everything they say I have already labelled as unhelpful or stupid. it is like " You just don't understand!!!" but then even if they try to I freeze up or do not want toshare with them....so I am basically getting angry at them for not being helpful,yet I am not giving them all the information about what I need help with...or what I am trying to say.

So I guess I am passive aggressive .

]

i don't get angry at people for not being helpful but i do tend to get angry at people if i feel they are making assumptions. same reasons as with therapists i think, though if its loved ones i don't react nastily like i do with therapists, i just get a bit bitey, lol. sometimes its hard to give people all the information, also sometimes some people try very hard to try to fix everything, and need to try to fix it before you can get a word in edgeways!

Passive agressive is more being agressive through inaction and/or silence than actively agressive. I can be passive-agressive, not in this sort of context, but with a few things in how i relate to the world in general. I freeze up too, but that's not passive-agressiveness (as far as i think ?) because its not done with agressive intentions towards other people its something that just happens. unless the agression is all subconscious or something.

katana wrote:I freeze up

In that you go
cold and formal
or
you can't think and act and your brain is in a sort of panic

First sound like withdrawal to show dissaproval or something
Second sounds like stress

no i mean some sort of stress response. not that i can't think, just that i can't act. if that makes sense. or i can, but sometimes not how i want to... idk no, its that i don't want/like something or other i have to face about something, i think. i freeze up cause i don't like what's being thrown in my face about stuff.

No, the freeze response thing isn't something i do on purpose or sometihng, lol. i can go cold on people when im angry, but that isn't out of my control, and that isn't what i mean here, i mean i get stressed. im pretty sure its stress anyway. I'm not even sure how long its been going on, i don't (think) it used to happen before (?) maybe it is recovery thing ? or ?

it only happens in relation to triggers, or trying to let peopel close emotionally or trying to get at issues i don't want to or that's more resistance/denial, so its a weird contradiction, like i have a lack of stress response to normal things i am supposed to respond to, and then i guess what is like (or possibly probably is ? a freeze response, (i mean freeze response as in "fight/flight/freeze/fawn" response, like an animal that's about to be eaten.) but i don't think i feel afraid, but i do feel stressed.

its a really weird contradiction and don;t ask me cause i don't get it either!! lol maybe its like its fear of some sort without me actively feeling afraid? or maybe its just stress and stress is different idk!!

sorry im not very emotionally literate