"NPD" or a lot of mixed up theory that makes no sense ?

What are we calling NPD?

A set of behavioural traits? Compensatory Narcissistic Defences? Not having resolved the stage children usually resolve at six - a cause of classic NPD behaviour that is totally different from the previous bit? Which part is NPD, cause they can both cause similar behaviour, but for such totally different reasons you could argue they are absolutely nothing to do with each other...

There are a whole load of "NPD victim sites" around that describe the behaviour of people with NPD, but when you look into how NPD is "supposed" to develop, a lot of this doesn't actually even match up or make sense when put together. a whole bunch of different issues are getting thrown in with "NPD" - because some of them cause similar behaviour, but if the causes behind this behaviour are entirely different, its like trying to say hernia is appendictitis because both cause abdominal pain. This is a problem cause removing someon's appendix won't do much to cure a hernia.

there's a stage kids are supposed to resolve somewhere around 6, where they stop seeing themselves as the centre of the universe. Someone once asked on the BPD forum if this meant BPDs could "mature into Narcissists" but this is completely daft, because the problems are different psychological processes that get resolved at those stages of development - or not in the case of PDs - different issues, not linear as if people are literally retarded and haven't matured past 3 or 6 or whatever in any way at all. otherwise all BPDs would have NPD too. when they happen is still important to help know "where to look" to fix them... but im guesing that's about it.

Six year olds don't act the way they do because they have deep-seated psychological problems and lack of self esteem, its because they really don't recognise they are not the centre of the universe.. as for attention, and what people have been doing since they were toddlers, children need attention all the time, no child has an addiction - if an adult develops an addiction to attention to fill a psychological void of some sort, this is not the same thing as the above problem.

One of the ideas with problems in NPD is that a person never resolved that 6-year-old stage and still sees themself as being the centre of the universe. to them, other people exist as extensions of them self. you can imagine that could cause very similar behaviour to a need for attention, and to outrage at attacking someone's ego, e.g. with low/non-existent self-esteem. but the causes are completely different....

<split so it can be read lol>

i resolved that 6/o life stage a few years later in my childhood than i was supposed to, so i still vaguely remember the time when "OMG, they're all people just like me? (Not just funny objects walking around)" happened, and i remember what it was like before that too. Its not just a cognitive realisation, is a profound change, so profound i'd argue that if someone has "NPD" as analysed that way, they *really won't get that.* they could hear the words, but there wouldn't really be any emotional comprehension. They wouldn't really idealise/devalue, they'd just casually "value" and then "cease to value" based on whether anything was provided. Idealisation in itself implies insecure attachment, and insecure attachment requires recognition as others as something other than extentions of the self (and really, this is not just feeling unempathic/being able to use others in that way.) so im thinking we're coming back to different causes all together, and "Narcissism" is a big component in a lot of PDs, but that its not always the same type of narcissism involved in different PDs.

...also im going to suggest that there is no such thing as "fleas". "Fleas" are compensatory narcissistic defenses developed to protect a person from the treatment they've been getting off someone else, particularly being brought up by abusive parents, but are exactly the same as other compensatory narcissistic defences, so there's no point labelling them differently.

For example compensatory narcissism often plays a huge part in disorders like BPD and HPD.

If someone is mentally 6, they might think they understand, but they really won't. 101 things can derail empathy and connection, including attachment, self-esteem, etc and yes those things can cause unhealthy/"pathological" Narcissism, but Narcissism as in "6 year old" is not those things at all, - (if "NPD" is still being analysed the same way it was!) lol

And an "inverted narcissist" is just someone with DPD/compensatory narcissistic defences rooted in victim mentality/anything else etc.... because its obvious there is no way someone can be "an inverted 6 year old". there are 101 different problems chucked into one pot and all stirred together here.

A compensatory narcissist can have a "narcissistic crisis"

Someoneone who has not resolved a developmental stage they were supposed to when they are 6 really can't. They can be unhappy/frustrated, but there is no "reality gap" involved here, its something completely different.

People here have mentioned problems with empathy being due to self-other referencing - that's the EXACT problem I found, and self-other referencing is rooted in *mirroring* and leads to problems with empathy and attachment. ...and makes very little sense with the type of "NPD" which is cited as someone still being mentally/emotionally six. - And it was AFTER i resolved that stage as a kid personally, that i ever started worrying at all about shyness/anxiety/self-esteem. etc. so im not even sure the 2 are compatible, and worry that popular psychology has muddled up concepts beyond understanding because people have been too busy trying to use psychology to vilify themselves and others. .....

a six year old isn't self-centred and demanding as a defensive reaction to their ego getting hurt, they're self-centred and demanding because that's just how the world is to them. And yes, i think i have met at least one person in my lifetime who really did have that emotional perspective. If a person with that psychological view of the world needed any "supply", i don't think it would make any difference whether it came from a person or an inanimate object, so if anyone here needs supply from *people* for any other reason than "people are more interactive" I'd argue this doesn't really seem compatible with this model of narcissism.

So what im trying to say, is that i dont think problems with self/other referencing or empathy in compensatory narcissism are caused by narcissism, i think the compensatory narcissism is simply to compensate for lack of self-esteem/low self esteem/self-hate etc. and self-other referencing is probably to do with mirroring and self-referencing.

whereas in Narcissism of the type where a person is still seeing the world how that six year old does, lack of empathy is definitely a result of that narcissism, and "narcissism" in that sense comes from self-centredness as in "centred around the self" not as in full of yourself, attention seeking, or other compensatory narcissistic defenses. the problem is that popular psychology has mixed the two up completely to a point where they make absolutely no sense.

its not important because of classification, its important so people can help themselves, but popular psychology online has become a "cluster B clusterfck" that seems to intermingle all of these issues under "narcissism" because they cause "narcissistic" behaviour. IMHO these compensatory disorders could be seen as "unhealthy functions of normal human narcissism" and have totally different causes & solutions, but the confusion leads to people getting sidetracked.

...and no I'm not going to say i think that means "that sort of NPD" isn't curable either, because there's no good reason why it shouldn't be, its just another example of unresolved developmental stages. just that all this seems very unhelpful to people who are trying to get their head around their problems.

Comments/criticism welcome...

I can count on one hand the decent websites on NPD.

Worse, there is almost no empirical evidence on the origins, required criteria, or treatment for NPD.

It's clear that there is something. Some doctors seem to thing it's a non-criminal ASPD, others think that's its a degree of psychopathy, some think it's a version of BPD, others think it's a viable separate entity.

(Side note: research doctors get their money from Pharm companies, who certainly aren't going to send anything for a disorder that medication doesn't help.)

katana wrote:Which part is NPD, cause they can both cause similar behaviour, but for such totally different reasons you could argue they are absolutely nothing to do with each other...

From what I've seen on here and in studies, NPD is very separate from Narcissistic traits and behavior.

katana wrote:There are a whole load of "NPD victim sites" around that describe the behaviour of people with NPD, but when you look into how NPD is "supposed" to develop, a lot of this doesn't actually even match up or make sense when put together.

A lot of those websites are written by people trying to make a buck off of needy people.

katana wrote:but if the causes behind this behaviour are entirely different, its like trying to say hernia is appendictitis because both cause abdominal pain. This is a problem cause removing someone's appendix won't do much to cure a hernia.

I think this is the primary reason NPD is supposedly "untreatable" - because we're looking at it the wrong way. I generally cite BPD, which was considered untreatable but until a short time ago. Suddenly it's very treatable. The disorder didn't change. They just stopped treating the patients as Jerks, and started treating them as people suffering.

Six year olds don't act the way they do because they have deep-seated psychological problems and lack of self esteem, its because they really don't recognise they are not the centre of the universe..

Hear hear. NPD people have problems not because they are covering up hurt, but because they never developed the ability to function properly. That's why the attempt to "take off the mask" and "reveal the true self" don't work - there isn't anything there.

Katana, you talk about your childhood a bit, and I want to give a different perspective:
My earliest thoughts are around 3-5. I know it was then because I know where I was living at the time. And I remember back then wondering why I seemed to think so differently than other people, why I never understood their reactions.

katana wrote:"Narcissism" is a big component in a lot of PDs, but that its not always the same type of narcissism involved in different PDs.

katana wrote:...also im going to suggest that there is no such thing as "fleas". "

Hear hear. Once again, shows the difference between NPD and N traits.

katana wrote:And an "inverted narcissist" is just someone with DPD/compensatory narcissistic defences rooted in victim mentality/anything else etc..

Yes, yes!

And I agree the concept of "supply" is simplistic and probably out-dated.

So what im trying to say, is that i dont think problems with self/other referencing or empathy in compensatory narcissism are caused by narcissism, i think the compensatory narcissism is simply to compensate for lack of self-esteem/low self esteem/self-hate etc. and self-other referencing is probably to do with mirroring and self-referencing.

In other words, it's compensatory narcissistic traits, not NPD.

whereas in Narcissism of the type where a person is still seeing the world how that six year old does, lack of empathy is definitely a result of that narcissism

This is the first part where I half-disagree...I think that the lack of empathy IS what we're calling the "narcissism". It's that disconnect, that unawareness, that causes all the supposed narcissism. (I'm probably just being semantic here, though. )

the problem is that popular psychology has mixed the two up completely to a point where they make absolutely no sense.

This is the best way to say it all. But I still blame the psychological community for not taking the time to clarify.

IMHO these compensatory disorders could be seen as "unhealthy functions of normal human narcissism" and have totally different causes & solutions

Indeed.


Thank you for this post/essay.

I am not convinced about this "arrested development at 6 years old". Lots of 6 year olds are very capable of empathy and, speaking from my observation ,do not see themselves as the centre of the universe (that can come later!), unless they are little brats of course. But most 6 year olds actually aren't in my experience. Lots of them are absolutely adorable and caring and so on.

Perhaps its just an explanation because they can't think of anything else and its easy to think of it in those terms, or else it is just a very partial explanation. I haven't read anything convincing myself apart from the general reasons of trauma, a kind of autism, genetics and the structural development of the brain being fixed, its all rather vague.

However, when I look at NPD traits they are shockingly accurate and consistent for my ex. And most people find this to be the same. Even with individual differences, people often have the strange feeling they are talking about the same person So, the causal theory may be mixed up, but to me anyway the diagnosis of NPD makes sense.

I agree with all the OPs on some things. What are the grounds on which people make the 6 year development assertion? Who says that in the first place? It must be highly speculative.

I also think that the appendix/hernia analogy is a good one - in people with PDs, for some reason, the defenses that all normies use (personality types) take over the centre stage, there seems to be little to nothing beside the defenses. this could have many reasons. But there may be good pain killers for treating the symptoms of both stomach aches (make it stomach ulcer instead of apendicitis, because it doesn't kill you). Also, there's nothing wrogn with observing that childhood trauma/neglect are a common factor in cluster B disorders, and it makes sense that particular types of neglect tend to bring about a particular defense profile.

For the empathy thing, i have written about that before - I still don't think anyone has a good definition of empathy or the lack thereof and I just don't buy that it's an all-or-none thing. And be it just because its such a small step from an unemotional narcissist that treats people like objects to the over-emotional histrionic whose emotions are everything but extremely volatile so in the end they show no concern for other's needs either, or a borderliner, who is somewhere in the middle. It seems more like different ways of coping with the same thing - a lack of a lasting experience of affect towards another person (so either ignore affect completely or admit it even though it's contradictory) - there were definitely recovering narcissists here who reported learning to hang on to feelings and what's that if not recovering some empathy?

From very very narcissistic people I know, some (the more boring ones) appear just extremely full of themselves and egoistic - beside being a bit touchy with criticism they just walk around the world like they owned the place, end of story. others may act in similar ways but they are suffering continually from an inner unrest and emptiness in a way that's more evident. I guess the first population tends more towards a mix wiht AsPD and the second to a mix with HPD/BPD? I sympathise more with the latter type because at least I understand the need behind their behaviour. I also believe that they are more likely to seek therapy or come to this forum because there is some psychological strain associated with the disorder directly, unless the first group has so severe symptoms that they cannot live a normal life. If this is so, different kinds of therapists (clinicians, psychotherapists) will also have a distorted view on the disorder, as the populations of narcs they treat are not representative of the mixed bag there is - this is worthwhile keeping in mind when reading about someone's common theory of narcissism.

I just wanted to add that I have only life experience to offer, but I really think katana is on to something. I call my mother a "profound narcissist" because she is narcissistic on a deeper level than say, unreal and undenied (just trying to make some sense of things by using examples of people we know).

She takes supply from animals/objects/ideas/acts/places just as much as from people. She has absolutely no "rockstar grandiosity" (no desire to be rich, famous, superlative or renowned in any field).

Her grandiosity as such is based on believing that ONLY HER REALITY, is real. So... only she can be honest, others are faking. Only she can be right, others are wrong. Only she can see the truth, others are misguided.

She simply cannot concede, acknowledge, understand, or in any way process, that other people exist. That other people are NOT HER. She simply CANNOT UNDERSTAND THIS FACT.

Other people's thoughts - are what she thinks they are.
Other people's feelings - are what she feels they are.
Other people's inner dialogue - is what she believes it is.
Other people enjoy - what she thinks they enjoy.
Other people are cold - when she feels cold.

I believe she has a 100% failure to develop an ego boundary at around age 1 to 2 years.

It's almost as though... she doesn't need grandiosity (although of course yes, she comes across as horribly arrogant as a result of having no ego boundary). Why would she need to appear superior - when no one else, is there? Superior - to whom?

Also fleas - I agree that fleas is basically a dumb concept and that's one of the things this forum has helped me realize.

But, as the child of a profound narcissist, I have had the following types of so-called "fleas" -

1. Sheer ignorance. When you grow up in a household where others behave badly, you copy, without even knowing you're doing it. This especially appears with copied behaviors such as criticizing, triangulation, intolerance. If nothing else was modeled, you do what you know, at least until you gather enough life experience to know better.

2. Possible Personality Development Disorder, reaching its peak at age 16 but resolving for the better at 17 to 18 years of age. In brief, I was so depressed in the environment my parents' created I was possibly on my way to being covertly narcissistic (my understanding is that this involves extremely low self-esteem, defensive and compensatory arrogance, envy, bitterness). What prevented this was lucky/random life events at age 17 which enabled me to make friends outside my family and "escape." In short, I began the decade-long process (just concluded) of individuating from my narcissistic family.

3. A period of overtly classical narcissistic behavior and attention-seeking (maybe also a bit like HPD) beginning age 17/18 until say 21, aimed at basically recovering all I had missed - especially pride in looks/relationships with men/friendships since my mum had basically raised me to believe I had to put a paper bag over my head in order to leave the house. At this time in my life, I easily could have been mistaken for a narcissist - but I wasn't. Once I found real acceptance from my husband - this phase ceased within a year.

All this combined and resolved to make me what I am today. Um, normal. Ish. Normal-ish.

wanderingstar wrote:I am not convinced about this "arrested development at 6 years old". Lots of 6 year olds are very capable of empathy and, speaking from my observation ,do not see themselves as the centre of the universe (that can come later!), unless they are little brats of course. But most 6 year olds actually aren't in my experience. Lots of them are absolutely adorable and caring and so on.

The number 6 is just being used arbitrarily, usually. The concept is that a young child has immature defenses and undeveloped social knowledge, and that a person with a personality disorder stays around there, instead of developing proper adult ways of thinking about the world.

However, I personally think that children at risk of developing NPD or other PDs have some predisposition they're born with.

Unfortunately, there is a severe lack of proper study on NPD, a lot of it just psychologists waxing philosophical. Try reading some theories of the origins of BPD or ASPD - they're somewhat similar.

Anais wrote: I call my mother a "profound narcissist" because she is narcissistic on a deeper level than say, unreal and undenied (just trying to make some sense of things by using examples of people we know).

Ahah, wow, really? What you're seeing is that me and unreal are self-aware, and therefore less oblivious than most Narcs. I know unreal has made some progress, but uh, jury is still out on me.

You are right about the permeable ego-boundaries, by the way - thinking that other people are extensions of yourself, while at the same time being very effected by them without realizing it's external.

undenied wrote:Ahah, wow, really? What you're seeing is that me and unreal are self-aware, and therefore less oblivious than most Narcs. I know unreal has made some progress, but uh, jury is still out on me.

Yeah, you're self-aware and also much younger than my mum. unreal pointed out that she is "ossified" (she'd love that - hey mum, you're no longer young - actually, you're ossified!).

I dunno. You just seem so much more... reasonable. I remember awhile back you said your therapy wasn't helpful. Have you found a new therapist at all? Never give up. You can do it! [flowers/hugs/bunnies/rainbows go here]