A question about empathy

My ex-N proudly admitted to having no empathy, couldn't relate to how others felt and didn't really much care. When my diabetic cat died over the course of several hours one Saturday morning and after burying her in the backyard, I went to his place to spend the weekend. All I got was a small hug, a pat on the back and the words, "Poor kitty." End of subject. I suffered alone the rest of the weekend in my grief that was only exasterbated by his lack of empathy/sympathy. (Note: at this point in our relationship I didn't know he was an N.) But on the other hand if his dog, who he obviously loved very much, or so it seemed, died that morning he would have been devastated and it made me wonder how it was that he could be so disconnected from MY pain.

My question is . . . isn't empathy simply placing yourself in the same situation, feeling how you would feel and then offering the kind of affection/understanding that you would like to receive?

My question is . . . isn't empathy simply placing yourself in the same situation, feeling how you would feel and then offering the kind of affection/understanding that you would like to receive?

No, that is "sympathy". Most Narcs can do this. I can see exactly how a cat dying would be painful, I can relate that pain to myself (I like cats), and I can say to you, "Gee, that sucks that your cat died."

Do I care that you feel bad about it? Nope. Totally indifferent. (I tend to do a decent job at hiding this part.)

Try this comparison: I "act" a lot of my outward emotions to people, so as to fit in more smoothly with daily functions. I've done this since I was a toddler. Therefore, I would naturally assume EVERYONE is "faking it". So if someone is boohoo-ing over something, and you "know" they are just faking it, your reaction is going to be a giant eyeroll instead of empathy. Is it someone you need to get along with? Well then you'll stuff down the eyeroll and play along a little bit, "gee that's too bad", hug, etc.

No, that is "sympathy". Most Narcs can do this.

Hmmm. So empathy is not only the ability to relate to but actually feel the same emotion (or close to it) as the one who is suffering? Where as sympathy, is just relating? You're saying that if you had access to emotion you would have the ability to have empathy?

I was always feeling that my ex was "behaving" his way toward loving me instead of really "being in love" with me but when I questioned his love he assured me that he did indeed love me. Since love is an emotion (?) is it that because you don't have access to your emotions you don't have access to love? I suppose that's why it's so easy to move on for Ns when the relation is over.

Out of sight, out of mind.

woreslapout wrote:Hmmm. So empathy is not only the ability to relate to but actually feel the same emotion (or close to it) as the one who is suffering?

Yyyyes, that seems to be it. Keep in mind I'm only saying this from an analytical perspective...

You're saying that if you had access to emotion you would have the ability to have empathy?

I am of the strong opinion that Narcissists could have been extremely kind, loving, empathetic people...if something hadn't gone wrong during childhood development. We tend to be hyper-sensitive to other's feelings as children. (I am aware of the sad irony of this, also.)

I was always feeling that my ex was "behaving" his way toward loving me instead of really "being in love" with me but when I questioned his love he assured me that he did indeed love me. Since love is an emotion (?) is it that because you don't have access to your emotions you don't have access to love? I suppose that's why it's so easy to move on for Ns when the relation is over.

Personally, I have always felt that I "loved" my loved ones. It's only recently that I've realized that the feelings I was describing with the word "love" were NOT the same things everyone else was using the word for. He probably really did think he loved you, and probably DID in his own way. The trouble is the river doesn't run too deep.

I don't think it's a matter of accessibility though, because that implies that were we to psychoanalyze long enough we could "break through" our mental blocks and somehow feel emotions properly again. This has proven completely untrue, which is why NPD is considered nearly untreatable. I think it's more of a matter that we never developed properly, a stunted growth, and that we need to "learn" empathy just as a child does. (It's noted in studies that the few NPDs that achieve a measure of healing take YEARS to do so, and I think this is why.)

Out of sight, out of mind.

I just read this same line on another thread. A good way to put it. Shows the childishness of NPD, too -- that something stops existing if it's not in front of your face.

undenied wrote:Personally, I have always felt that I "loved" my loved ones. It's only recently that I've realized that the feelings I was describing with the word "love" were NOT the same things everyone else was using the word for. He probably really did think he loved you, and probably DID in his own way. The trouble is the river doesn't run too deep.

undenied, thank you so much for all your insightful posts recently.

Could you describe more to us about how you always felt that you "loved" your loved ones? What were your feelings like? Especially before you became self-aware. Thank you.

undenied, thank you so much for all your insightful posts recently.

Sad thing is, I'm not really being "insightful". I'm just describing the way I work and assuming that all the other narcs do to. Typical narc, thinking everyone is the same as them. Luckily this is an NPD board and I appear to be a textbook case, lol, so it ends up being accurate and relevant.

Could you describe more to us about how you always felt that you "loved" your loved ones? What were your feelings like? Especially before you became self-aware. Thank you.

Never really thought about it with family - after all, everyone loves their family, right? But in the past I've "counseled" friends who were upset or hurt by their family members, and couldn't understand why they couldn't just "shut off" their feelings. I believed people who loved their terrible parents were duped by a societal norm that says we HAVE to love our family. Same with people dating abusive folks.

As for relationships, I obviously respond favorably to someone showing interest in me, but I somehow get it into my head that this person has ideal compatibility and that clearly we are the best most perfect couple ever. So basically, I get "crushes"? lol. But again, I suppose what I'm really calling love is simply (a) I like when people want me, and (b) this one is especially useful towards constructing the Ideal Me.

Hmmm. So empathy is not only the ability to relate to but actually feel the same emotion (or close to it) as the one who is suffering? Where as sympathy, is just relating? You're saying that if you had access to emotion you would have the ability to have empathy?

Well, not really. Sympathy, is exactly what undenied said. Empathy is strictly to feel something something in response to another person's emotion. I can do sympathy quite well but not empathy at all.

As undenied said, I too fake empathy all the time...just some times I'm way caught off guard or I'm tired and just can't pull it off. So I can related to your ex...

"Poor kitty." End of subject.

I've had countless times of exactly this, where I'm just thinking, "sh*t"!...then I get the weird look normally followed by the, "what's wrong with you"?

I "act" a lot of my outward emotions to people, so as to fit in more smoothly with daily functions. I've done this since I was a toddler. Therefore, I would naturally assume EVERYONE is "faking it". So if someone is boohoo-ing over something, and you "know" they are just faking it, your reaction is going to be a giant eyeroll instead of empathy. Is it someone you need to get along with? Well then you'll stuff down the eyeroll and play along a little bit, "gee that's too bad", hug, etc.

dido...every word.

Since love is an emotion (?) is it that because you don't have access to your emotions you don't have access to love? I suppose that's why it's so easy to move on for Ns when the relation is over.

Recently since recovering I've been having flickers of emotion...like cuteness, I have no defense against it. But, anything substantial, well no and I doubt that will ever be the case.

So, let's put it this way...whether you realize it or not, you're comparing your emotional state to the emotional state of folks like me when its really non-comparable. The best I can do is appreciate "you" and act accordingly being mindful of my behavior as long as you're willing to deal with the real me (after I tell you about my diagnosis of course, big assumption though).

So, if I pretend to care then I care...and since I really don't care, since I lack empathy, than I "love you". In cases like recovering NPD or any other cluster-B Pd, you really have to look at the individuals effort with her/his emotional endowment. What I mean is, I reckon that if you felt nothing for somebody you would definitely act accordingly yet if I'm willing to emotionally be there for you, knowing its an act, than its real. Again, the flicker of feeling...even though my 'feelings' or lack there of have been hollow for eons, I can still 'feel movement of sort' when someone is allegedly important to me. Just if something terrible happened to such a person I'd have to fake the entire thing...which I'm good at. I hope that makes sense.

He probably really did think he loved you, and probably DID in his own way. The trouble is the river doesn't run too deep.

Yep undenied, he told me many times that he loved me the best he could and I believed him of course at that realization we started spiraling down because, while I'm not a needy person, I was looking for a return on my emotional investment and just wasn't getting it. Our breakup was mutual - I think we just "wore each other slap out!"

I've had countless times of exactly this, where I'm just thinking, "sh*t"!...then I get the weird look normally followed by the, "what's wrong with you"?

Euler, my ex is also OCD, not to an extreme and not disruptively but I think he might use that to mask his latent N traits. He was aware that people thought that he was creepy when they first met him and told me so at the beginning. Also was always asking me if he scared me. I'm not adverse to strange off-center people, being one myself, so I disregarded that as his imagination. But now that I know what I know I can see where that is very likely and with nine months in tow his covert ability to damage me emotionally was terrifying and I told him so. More than once I've too asked, "What's wrong with you"?

I am of the strong opinion that Narcissists could have been extremely kind, loving, empathetic people...if something hadn't gone wrong during childhood development. We tend to be hyper-sensitive to other's feelings as children. (I am aware of the sad irony of this, also.)

WOW! I would agree 200%. There were all those endearing qualities swimming among his sharks. It's the reason I stayed. I saw a sweet, adorable person in all the chaos and wanted so much to help that beautiful person out into the light of day. He would cry at movies or while listening to music but when it came to real life personal/emotional interaction he was blank as a stump. Very confusing.

Thanks to both of you for answering my post. I am trying so hard to understand and appreciate your candidness since I certainly can't ask him. It must be equally difficult for you to relate from you're perspective. BTW, I'm not angry at my ex, we're even trying to work on a friendship (so far not going to good) - I actually feel a lot of empathy for him, how ironic is that?

Hello Sasha,

To me, making my bed is normal... no need to be told that I'm a good girl! I'm a grown up! It's normal to do my bed! I'm not 7 years old to need to hear that I'm being good for making my bed, right?

I think that's because, unlike regular adults, N's emotional growth stopped at about age 6 or 7 - so they still expect to be praised for doing things like making the bed.

They WILL do nice things for us, as long as it's in their best interests, ie. if they want to keep us around because we are (for now) their primary source of supply.

If my N loves me (misses me and is sad if I break up with him and I don't return his calls, etc...), he KNOWS how I feel if my cat dies.
Cause he KNOWS how HE feels if his cat dies... so how come he can't place himself in my own shoes? And feel empathy for what I feel and am going through?

This is what I don't understand... I would get it if he didn't feel anything himself when he loses stuff, if he has a bad day, his cat dies, he loses something he really likes, etc... but HE DOES FEEL IT WHEN IT HAPPENS TO HIM!!! So how come he acts like he doesn't care when it happens to ME???? I'm not a stranger!! I'm the closest person in his life!!! He freaks out when he loses me!!!

The only reason he is sad if his cat dies is because he has lost a source of supply. That cat made him feel good and now it's gone so he's sad. As soon as he gets another cat he'll be just fine. IT'S ALL ABOUT HIM!

You ask why he "acts like he doesn't care" when it happens to you? - Well, I hate to break it to you, but he's not acting here - if your cat dies, sure he knows that you must be upset, but HE DOESN'T CARE. The only emotions he feels are ones concerning him. He freaks out when he loses you because he hasn't found a replacement source of supply yet. I'm sure that he loves you in his own way but it is NOT the same as the love that us nons feel. I don't want to sound harsh or mean but unfortunately that's the way it is. It was the hardest thing for me to accept that my exN could not truly "love me". And it's really hard to get our heads around that fact that they really don't care - it seems so strange, so alien, that someone could be this way.

I don't believe that Ns do this deliberately, from what I understand from those on this forum they are simply unable to feel empathy - they can't understand or comprehend it, just like I can't understand or comprehend Japanese lol! But I can LEARN Japanese, if I want to.. just like Ns can learn empathy, if they want to, but I will never be as good at Japanese as a person who's native language it is, just like an N will never be as good at empathy as we are... maybe that's not a very good explanation but I tried!

And something else... if they DO feel sad and expect people to feel sad for them... why not think that we expect the same in return? I mean, I want people to be there for me when I feel sad and vulnerable... so I make my best to be there for them, and to be a good friend/lover, to care about them, so they can offer the same in return...

That's exactly what I have always wondered... I think it could have something to do with their sense of entitlement. I mean, why should someone so "special" have to waste their time making someone else happy?

Don't they worry that if they only take and don't give back people will find out that they are selfish and won't be there for them anymore?

Maybe - but again, they DON'T CARE. If someone isn't there for them anymore they will just move on and find someone else.

phoenixgirl wrote:

And something else... if they DO feel sad and expect people to feel sad for them... why not think that we expect the same in return? I mean, I want people to be there for me when I feel sad and vulnerable... so I make my best to be there for them, and to be a good friend/lover, to care about them, so they can offer the same in return...

That's exactly what I have always wondered... I think it could have something to do with their sense of entitlement. I mean, why should someone so "special" have to waste their time making someone else happy?

I don't think it has to do with entitlement. I think that they don't want to act all the time. If you stand in their way, you stand in their way and they don't want to act as if it was different. For them it is the truth. They live their own truth.