Difference between NPD and Psychopath

Normal? wrote:It is in fact quite Narcissistic of me to believe I have so much impact on other people I think?

I doubt it's narcissistic. You probably should take into account who you're talking to though. If a rape victim says you offended them, go ahead and feel guilt. It's probably the right thing to do. If somebody arguing for psychopathy says you offended them, don't worry about it. They're either joking, or they'll get over it.

Normal? wrote:I’m not sure what the difference is. An individual presents for psychological assessment or support because they don’t ‘feel normal’ (unless they are forced into it by a ‘higher power’!). Whether they are clinically normal or not is a bit of a moot point as this definition would not even come until play until they sought treatment, and they wouldn’t seek treatment unless they felt they needed it, if that makes sense.

That does make sense, but very few psychopaths seek treatment voluntarily. They're usually court mandated to therapy, pushed into therapy by family, or go voluntarily for separate reasons. I went voluntarily, for separate reasons. I recognised my behaviour would cause problems. My personality enabled the behaviour, but I'm still not convinced there's anything wrong with my personality itself.

Normal? wrote:The problem with the psychopath is that although he knows his emotions and actions are ‘congruent’ society does not support his view. It tells him the opposite. There is no recognition of his ‘wholeness’, only a plethora of messages conveying how it is wrong to behave and think in the way he does. His only recourse is to reject these messages – otherwise, who is he? Or to change his idea of who he is. It is little wonder that this often leads to a desire for revenge, or to extreme anger (as in the most extreme cases of psychopathology).

Well said, and spot on. It's kind of too bad you didn't post this over in the AsPD forum. I might even create a new thread over there - some day, when I'm off mod-preview again. I'm not sure if you realise, but what you described... this is the crux of the problem. The psychopath is kind of stuck. They're forced to either fake who they are to be accepted by society, and suffer the social isolation of living a lie, or, alternatively, be themselves (congruent), and repel people. Psychopaths aren't schizoid. Personally, I don't want to be isolated from society, but if I reveal myself, society rejects me. Consequently, I've almost split into two separate people - the Jekyll who acts responsible, kind, and compassionate, and the Hyde who is everything else.

fiveintime wrote:but if I reveal myself, society rejects me.

Hi fiveintime,

I have a weak grasp of psychopathy. I read the ASPD board when I can, but I admit I do not "get it." Or rather, every time I think maybe I do get it, I read another post that makes me realize I don't.

If you revealed yourself, what would you be like? Are you able to tell us online? Or not?

Anais wrote:I have a weak grasp of psychopathy. I read the ASPD board when I can, but I admit I do not "get it." Or rather, every time I think maybe I do get it, I read another post that makes me realize I don't.

If you revealed yourself, what would you be like? Are you able to tell us online? Or not?

If I do display emotions (rare), it's often in the same way as a compulsive liar lies. It's almost impulsive... like it seemed like a good idea at the moment. It's not even intentional. It just happens, and suddenly I'm getting pity, guilt, or some other form of compassion, so I just go with the flow. I don't want to shatter the illusion. Emotions comfort people. I have inklings of other emotions, but my most authentic emotions are humour and a kind of focused aggression.

In my mind, a friendship is functional... even a "romantic" relationship is a functional thing. You both entertain each other, provide sex, companionship, etc. It's almost like a business partnership. People don't want to hear this. They think there's something deeper and more magical. Twice in my life, I made the mistake of saying something to this effect, and it was turned into "you don't really care about me, you don't love me, etc." I still kind of think this is the way things really are, and that people are just being deceived by their emotions when they say there's something deeper. I mean, look at the divorce rates. Emotional connections are fickle.

Seeing people get hurt is either amusing or turns me on (depending on who/how), and I have strong urges to hurt them myself. It's basically the, "If you're okay with <enter disturbing thing>, I'm not okay with you." type reaction. Think about how you'd feel if a pedophile started telling you about the vivid details of their sexual fantasies with a four year old. Well, I'm not a pedophile, but sometimes, when I laugh to myself and people want to know why, the real reason is anything but socially acceptable. This also applies to problem solving. I'm a good lateral thinker, and often come up with some pretty unacceptable solutions to problems. If I mention them and get the sort of nervous "Are you serious?" reaction, I just laugh and say "kidding." Sometimes people want the problem solves so badly, they'd even be pleased if it was solved. They just don't want to know the mechanics of how it's going to happen.

fiveintime wrote:If I do display emotions (rare), it's often in the same way as a compulsive liar lies. It's almost impulsive... like it seemed like a good idea at the moment. It's not even intentional. It just happens, and suddenly I'm getting pity, guilt, or some other form of compassion, so I just go with the flow. I don't want to shatter the illusion. Emotions comfort people. I have inklings of other emotions, but my most authentic emotions are humour and a kind of focused aggression.

Why does it bother you to shatter the illusion? And how does seeing people comforted because you effect you? It sounds like an altruistic obligation almost.

Can hypnosis therapy change an ASPD's thinking in the same it can for others? For example, can you convince your self conscious that emotions are good, and that this is what you're genuinely feeling at the moment?

There is a book titled psycho cybernetics. There is therapy (mostly hypnosis) in there about changing the identity on our surface (like plastic surgery), and help align that image to be acceptable by our identity underneath - who believe we are. It's when these two beliefs are out of alignment, that cognitive dissonance occur and we repel the intrusive thoughts like lying to ourselves.

KenWalker wrote:Why does it bother you to shatter the illusion?

What bothers me is the way people's behaviour changes when you shatter their illusion. Say... the neighbour's dog is aggressive and tried to bite you. So one night you climb over the fence, beat it's head into the ground with a shovel, wrap it up in several trash bags, and toss it out with the morning trash. The neighbour found the blood stains on their porch, so they call the police. You didn't want trouble with the law... you were just solving a problem. People can see that you're a bit on edge, and they ask what's wrong. You shrug it off, "Work is stressful lately." and they reply, "Is your boss giving you a hard time?" so you just go with that. They think you're vulnerable and possibly a victim deserving of sympathy.

If they knew the truth, how would they treat you? Of course, we don't really know, but there's plenty of evidence that it might not be good. When I say, "emotions comfort people," this isn't altruism. Keep in mind that people often act aggressive and hostile towards things that make them uncomfortable. Or, at the least, they act distant. I don't want this. Best to just let people believe what they want to believe.

fiveintime, that is really well explained and very interesting. Thank you.

fiveintime wrote:

KenWalker wrote:Why does it bother you to shatter the illusion?

What bothers me is the way people's behaviour changes when you shatter their illusion. Say... the neighbour's dog is aggressive and tried to bite you. So one night you climb over the fence, beat it's head into the ground with a shovel, wrap it up in several trash bags, and toss it out with the morning trash. The neighbour found the blood stains on their porch, so they call the police. You didn't want trouble with the law... you were just solving a problem. People can see that you're a bit on edge, and they ask what's wrong. You shrug it off, "Work is stressful lately." and they reply, "Is your boss giving you a hard time?" so you just go with that. They think you're vulnerable and possibly a victim deserving of sympathy.

If they knew the truth, how would they treat you? Of course, we don't really know, but there's plenty of evidence that it might not be good. When I say, "emotions comfort people," this isn't altruism. Keep in mind that people often act aggressive and hostile towards things that make them uncomfortable. Or, at the least, they act distant. I don't want this. Best to just let people believe what they want to believe.

This explains a lot on why ASPD's have to lie. I can understand it on a intellectual level.

However, you don't have to be a ASPD to think about killing someone's dog lol. I have a dog, and I love him to death, but there are times when I think I think like an ASPD when the neighbor's dog keeps me up all night barking. He's doesn't even have to be threatening my life. I slam my pillow over my ears and tell myself, "God I want to choke that dog to death!" The difference is, there's something, besides the law, that holds me back from actually expressing that making it easier for me. I'm sure every normal has said, "I want to kill him!" once in his life about someone, simply for being irritated to death by that person. We even express it to other people. I think it's not so strange to them as long as you don't go into explicit details about it, or repeat it all the time and also as long as their's an acceptable reason behind it like real anger towards that person . But yeah I get what you're saying about going with the flow to hide what's unacceptable outside of acceptable norms.

Like you realized though, it's solving only a short term problem. You'd get in trouble with the law and now you're dealing with a longer term problem relating to that. For me it's an even bigger problem if I carry through. Normals have an easier restraining system in them than ASPDS, but we also suffer a more negative consequence iff we don't restrain. Because not only do I have to deal with the law, I have to deal with this guilt we normals have for destroying the dog, thus hurting the owners, our family and society's view of humanity, and so forth. I deal with that guilt before I'd even touch the dog. We're so obligated and tied down to every one around us.

Sympathy as you've heard is the lowest form of love for one normal to another normal. We've had this discussion before and you explained it to me in terms that we both agree what sympathy/empathy is. It doesn't reach to another person on an emotional depth or that other half that comprises most humans. Yet how would a normal be able to go beyond sympathizing with an ASPD in the first place if he considered himself a loving person? I cannot help but wonder what it's like to empathize with an ASPD. I sit thinking about random people, because those closest to me are too difficult to puncture the thought, and wonder what they would appear to me like had I no emotional bearing to them. If I were to see them like a pencil tray or a napkin I blow my nose into, what would their existence to me feel like? The full capacity to be able to understand that still escapes me since an object still holds an emotional value to a normal like me. A momentum that has been with me for a while like a useless broken revolver still has more value in my eyes than a full functioning rifle, because of the memories attached to the gun (who it was given by, how I earned it, what it's been through with me etc.). I take myself to another level and try to remove myself from that feeling as well, and imagine myself once again looking at people like they were meaningless objects - basically zero functional value, that below of what even an ASPD would see in a person.

I'm a very imaginative person by the way. This occurred today when I was walking my dog. Maybe I had gone temporarily insane from that image lol, but what I saw when I removed myself of feelings and looked at pedestrians going by made me laugh. By removing humanity from them, It was like watching strange objects floating by flapping their arms and grinning. Then, I imagined a scissor floating to their body, and cutting them up like ribbons. It gave me a strange satisfaction of curiosity in what shapes I could make (from a famous serial killer who made furniture out of people) down to the level of effecting their limb movements by impairing certain organs.

I took it back down a level, and placed merely functional value to a person and still no emotions. I then saw myself getting into trouble with the law and henceforth.

Then after a bit, I took myself back down eventually to a normal level. I snapped out of my state of trance and was overcame with a disgusted feeling of remorse that I could think like that. I remind myself to not judge myself and justify that it was an mental experiment, nothing more. I would never do anything like that in reality, or fathom it outside of that one time.

Thanks for inspiring that fascinating thought .

I have another question. I'm sure you've done the experiment in an inverse fashion. What do you see, when you try to imagine yourself empathizing like a normal, and receiving the same level of empathy for yourself in a normal society where everyone is either like you, or simply accepts you for who you are - whether as an ASPD or a normal?

Great post, Ken. Just when I thought I might need to answer a question, you seemed to figure it out on your own. Your experiment was interesting, if only a little tame. Floating scissors cutting people into ribbons? I can see why you'd go that route. That's very hands-off and impersonal. I suspect that if you made it too personal, it might go beyond what you're willing to deal with.

I walk around, every day, all the time, like your experiment. I like to make it as real as I can. I look at my barista, smile at her, and then imagine hurting her in the most brutal ways possible. I imagine it with all of my five senses. It feels good to imagine it, but it leaves me frustrated that I can't actually follow through without legal consequences.

KenWalker wrote:I have another question. I'm sure you've done the experiment in an inverse fashion. What do you see, when you try to imagine yourself empathizing like a normal, and receiving the same level of empathy for yourself in a normal society where everyone is either like you, or simply accepts you for who you are - whether as an ASPD or a normal?

The problem with inverting your experiment, is that it's based on how it makes you feel. How can I understand how it would "feel" to be normal, when one of the things that makes me abnormal is an inability to feel these things? I do have an intellectual understanding of how it works, though. I know guilt makes you hurt, maybe even feel nauseous, and it makes you wish you could undo what you did. I know empathy allows you to put yourself into another person's shoes, and to share their suffering.

Sometimes I try. I try to empathise, but I mostly come up blank. I can draw the parallels, understand how it might make me feel to be in their situation, but I still don't feel anything for them. Ultimately, they're not me. That's the problem I have with empathy. It's not automatic for me, and, intellectually, I know they're not me.

I wonder... if I did empathise with them, would I still want to hurt them? I've run into people in the paraphilia forum who have these urges to rape and murder people, but they have a normal, functioning conscience. They're not even doing anything wrong, yet their personal guilt tears them apart. Your "experiment" was good, though. You've inspired me. If it wasn't the middle of the night, and I wasn't half asleep, I might give it another shot right now.

As far as being accepted, well, I have had that with certain people. I tend to gravitate towards these people, because I like that I can be more honest, relax, and just be myself. I have to hide part of me from everybody, all the time. My wife, son, coworkers, friends, etc. It's like a breath of fresh air to have somebody to talk to openly.

unreal wrote:

Both are predators.

dehumanizing offensive lie is dehumanizing and offensive

Hi all. You can all thank "Ken Walker" for my entrance here into your quite congenial sandbox. He said that the Aspd forum was interesting so I looked up his posts. They took me here. But while reading all of your posts, this particular one jumped out at me. For it is the answer to the threads question, what is the difference? "unreal" if I remember correctly is a "narc," correct? Cuz he came to the aspd forum and inquired about a few things. He responded to this post like a narc would. He didn't like being called a predator. It hurt him to think of himself that way, therefore he defended himself to erase even the thought of it might being true out of his mind. Basically, he deluded himself. Narcs are delusional. "Antisocials" are not. We know what we are and that is all. I am a predator. So what? This is the basic difference. They want to be everything to all people. And for us people are just there living in our world, not worrying what they think or feel about us.

By the way, "fiveintime," it is nice to see you show your sensitive side. Something you don't show us "aspdrs" over there. Lol Don't lay it on too thick though. Right now its just right.

fiveintime wrote:I walk around, every day, all the time, like your experiment. I like to make it as real as I can. I look at my barista, smile at her, and then imagine hurting her in the most brutal ways possible. I imagine it with all of my five senses. It feels good to imagine it, but it leaves me frustrated that I can't actually follow through without legal consequences.

fiveintime,

Do you think you'll make it through to the end of your lifetime without acting on these fantasies? (not trying to trap you here, lol, just genuinely interested as to whether you feel confident about holding it in or not).

Do you have these violent fantasies about your wife? If there were no legal consequences would you then follow through, with her? Would it bother you afterwards that your wife was then, well, gone? (ahem).

When you are able to spend time with the people who accept you, and you can be open with, do you also have these imaginings about hurting them?