Difference between NPD and Psychopath

Lifesong, I am so sorry to hear about Maggie, you must be feeling so sad right now. I know how heart-breaking it is when you lose a pet that you love dearly and it is terrible. I’ve always loved animals and been very attached to my pets. Although I too grieve when I lose them, I am always glad that they have had a safe life and a nice place to sleep and lots and lots of love. Sometimes with pets the benefit you feel is as much about what you are able to give them as it is about what you got, if that makes sense, and it is very rewarding.

Sending you lots of love today x

LifeSong wrote:For me, the distinction falls not so much in the realm of the causative factors (disorder, depression, etc) but in effective (or affective) factors - what does the ‘causer’ feel after the harm has been done? how does s/he respond? I think most nons feel guilt, remorse, shame, empathy, or some other ability to bring some level of understanding and connectiveness to the other person - AsPD, NPD, some BPD/HPD, do not have similar emotional/empathic responses.
It is the coldness and deadness to normal emotional response after inflicting (severe) pain to someone that is most chilling to me about psychopaths when they choose to act out. I find myself recoiling from that, and, I think, appropriately so. In that, a psychopath’s range of emotion, or lack thereof, far exceeds or is outside range of normal.

Yes – and in a lot of cases it is, as you say here, the lack of response/understanding that is most shocking to the non, in the face of being badly hurt. We really cannot comprehend that the disordered person does not appreciate our pain - especially since they caused it? I have lost count of the number of times I asked my ex in amazement ‘What do you expect me to do/feel?’. But, in truth, he really did not understand. It was akin to two people speaking to each other in different languages.

fiveintime wrote:So, you're telling me that childhood and "refining the art" of containing one's emotions, would have taught this guy how to deal with this? Sure, it's an extreme and contrived example, but it makes a point. People don't know how to control their emotions in new environments until they encounter them. Some people are better at containing their emotions than others, but my point is, that the very presence of emotions in stressful environments is volatile.

Yes – fiveintime, that’s exactly what I am telling you. If the ‘guy’ in this ridiculously far-fetched and unlikely scenario, knew how to manage his emotions appropriately then, yes, he would have responded appropriately. It isn’t rocket science!

Not everyone who is cheated on kills their spouse. Some might see it as a good thing that they learnt the kind of person they were married to. Some (the more emotionally stable) might know well enough not to marry a person who would cheat on them in the first place. I know many people who have been betrayed by their partner – and I know none who killed anybody as a result.

Not everyone who is fired considers driving off a cliff. Some see it as a great opportunity to do something different. Some might remind themselves how lucky they are to have 3 healthy kids. Some might be delighted they now have the chance to take a degree, or start their own business or take a year out. As we all know, there is more than just one job in the world!

Lifesong is right – the difference lies in the response and not in the cause. For a disordered person, the scenario is all about Steve ‘getting one over’ on Dave, how Dave has ‘lost’. Therefore he must have his vengeance and it must be swift and vicious or he has been diminished. That is why CBT is effective in treating PDs - it challenges the automatic thoughts and brings reason into the equation.

But for the ‘normal’ it just isn’t like that. It isn’t about life being unfair and fate is against me and nothing ever goes right …… so now I’ll stab someone, or beat them to death.

The person with a normal emotional range can temper their anger with an appreciation of what is good, an awareness of the positives, an understanding that these things happen in life and a rational, logical perspective on any event. It is instinctive to do so you see - that is what they have always done.

Normal? wrote:If the ‘guy’ in this ridiculously far-fetched and unlikely scenario, knew how to manage his emotions appropriately then, yes, he would have responded appropriately. It isn’t rocket science!

No, it's not rocket science; however, it is an area where many "normal" people fall short. Perhaps some CBT for normies to clean them up a bit wouldn't be such a bad idea too.

Normal? wrote:Some might see ...(example after example of positive thinking, even though real life proves people make terrible emotional decisions all the time)...

Indeed

Normal? wrote:It is instinctive to do so you see - that is what they have always done.

Yes, I see Empathy is the instinct that inhibits bad behaviour, while the other emotions enable it. Unfortunately, empathy often falls short. Most people are so hopped up on this socially acceptable heroin called emotion, that they can't see what a pathetic mess it makes them. Instead of having a loaded gun (emotion) with the safety on (empathy), why not set the whole mess aside?

This discussion is almost like I'm watching you dancing on the table, drunk, and naked, and here I am, sober, telling you you're being a fool. Of course you don't believe me, though - you're too drunk on your own emotional state to get it.

I think I see where we might not be seeing eye-to-eye, though. I've wandered out of my usual AsPD forum into this forum, where you're strangely discussing psychopathy. I see from your back posts, that you had a rather unfortunate experience with an N. As I understand, N's aren't nearly as unemotional as they appear to be. That's your bias. On the other hand, I see people around me who are "normal" getting into fights with their spouse, becoming depressed, feeling jealous, and oozing insecurity. I know this isn't everybody, but I'm basing my view of "normals" on the ones I've met in real life. That's my bias. Real life has exceptions - on both sides.

fiveintime wrote:No, it's not rocket science; however, it is an area where many "normal" people fall short. Perhaps some CBT for normies to clean them up a bit wouldn't be such a bad idea too.

They use the basics all the time – it’s called ‘non-disordered thinking’.

fiveintime wrote:Some might see ...(example after example of positive thinking, even though real life proves people make terrible emotional decisions all the time)...

Interesting that you call them examples of ‘positive thinking’ when they are just a list of facts. There IS more than one job in the world, someone IS lucky to have healthy children. That you register these pretty obvious facts as examples of ‘positive thinking’ (thereby implying that they are delusional) is indicative of the negative automatic thoughts CBT seeks to address.

fiveintime wrote:As I understand, N's aren't nearly as unemotional as they appear to be. That's your bias.

What’s my bias again? Can you just explain what you mean?

fiveintime wrote:On the other hand, I see people around me who are "normal" getting into fights with their spouse, becoming depressed, feeling jealous, and oozing insecurity. I know this isn't everybody, but I'm basing my view of "normals" on the ones I've met in real life. That's my bias. Real life has exceptions - on both sides.

Yes – I see what you mean. None of them are murdering people though, I’m assuming?

fiveintime wrote:This discussion is almost like I'm watching you dancing on the table, drunk, and naked, and here I am, sober, telling you you're being a fool. Of course you don't believe me, though - you're too drunk on your own emotional state to get it.

Well we are both in the same bar til they call last orders. Who’s having a good time: me or you? Who's the fool again?

Normal? wrote:Interesting that you call them examples of ‘positive thinking’ when they are just a list of facts. There IS more than one job in the world, someone IS lucky to have healthy children. That you register these pretty obvious facts as examples of ‘positive thinking’ (thereby implying that they are delusional) is indicative of the negative automatic thoughts CBT seeks to address.

Positive thinking is looking at the good things in life, despite the negative. A general outlook on life doesn't equate to cognitive distortion or delusion. There are lots of facts, but people tend to see the ones they want to see. I guess I'd assumed you knew this?

And, well, the personal attacks... you're not actually getting defensive here, are you? You'll have to hold it together while we argue, or you might accidentally make my point for me.

Normal? wrote:Yes – I see what you mean. None of them are murdering people though, I’m assuming?

Murder is just another level of the same behaviour. Even if somebody doesn't murder, when they let emotion cloud their judgement, they're demonstrating a personal shortcoming.

Normal? wrote:What’s my bias again? Can you just explain what you mean?

Don't you have an N ex? Maybe I misread. It was late, and I only took a cursory look at your back posts.

Meh. I agree with you anyway, Norma. Despite their emotional affliction, healthy people can and do sometimes make good decisions and live functional, happy well-adjusted lives.

fiveintime wrote:Positive thinking is looking at the good things in life, despite the negative. A general outlook on life doesn't equate to cognitive distortion or delusion. There are lots of facts, but people tend to see the ones they want to see. I guess I'd assumed you knew this? .

That’s the beauty though of CBT – you consider the good and the bad together. I’m sure that losing your job is a bit of a shock initially, maybe even a pain in the ass. But if you can consider the situation with some measure of neutrality and look at it from all angles, then the view you eventually have is more balanced. It certainly does not lead you to want to drive off a cliff.

fiveintime wrote:And, well, the personal attacks... you're not actually getting defensive here, are you? You'll have to hold it together while we argue, or you might accidentally make my point for me. .

I didn’t know I was attacking you or being defensive – honestly. I was offering my opinion and though it did not ‘fit’ your own, that does not mean I am attacking you, not at all. But I think this assumption is a condition of some PDs: - the world is against me and if you aren’t with me then you are my enemy? Would you say that is so (more about this in the article below FIT)?

If I were defensive (and it is quite, quite possible) then that would be part of a healthy response in which, though I express a differing view, I am still in control of that response, and of the emotions I may be feeling. I am not suggesting here that normals do not feel emotion – just that the way they process them is more measured. It is not murdering someone after they cut you up. I appreciate these acts are on a continuum – but at one end of this is a ‘normal’ response and at the other is a mental disorder.

fiveintime wrote:Don't you have an N ex? Maybe I misread. It was late, and I only took a cursory look at your back posts.

It was a genuine question Fiveintime. My ex has features of several PDs (as do most individuals – Millon says that it is extremely rare for a patient to be a ‘pure strain’). I just wanted you to explain what you meant by this colouring my attitude towards emotions?

As a post script, I wondered if you had come across this book? I was reading an excerpt from it earlier –very interesting!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... NTCMP=SRCH

Both are predators. But psychopaths have a sharper instinct for detail...

Normal? wrote:I didn’t know I was attacking you or being defensive – honestly.

No worries. My feelings aren't hurt. Before you go attributing anything else to my PD, though, you should probably know... I don't have a personality disorder.

Normal? wrote:It was a genuine question Fiveintime. My ex has features of several PDs (as do most individuals – Millon says that it is extremely rare for a patient to be a ‘pure strain’). I just wanted you to explain what you meant by this colouring my attitude towards emotions?

Well, if your exposure to an unemotional, unempathetic, calculating, rational, individual is not only somebody who's disordered, but also a romantic "ex," that could bias your opinion a bit. Everybody has their biases. I certainly have mine.

Normal? wrote:As a post script, I wondered if you had come across this book? I was reading an excerpt from it earlier –very interesting!

Interesting article. I don't agree with it though. I don't think empathy is as important as it's made out to be. Without rehashing this entire discussion - people without empathy often don't commit crimes, and people with empathy sometimes do. I understand the importance of empathy as a social inhibitor - the fear/pain keeps people in line. That's still not to say that you can't play along perfectly well without it. I tend to think it's even more respectable to be a good person when you don't have some sort of biological inhibitors forcing it on you. Shows a sort of conscientious self-dicipline.

Both are predators.

dehumanizing offensive lie is dehumanizing and offensive

It sure is...