Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Wow, so much to respond to and I'm a bit short on time. Apologies if I miss anything or don't make sense.

I'm putting something from the OP here as a placeholder and hope to come back to it at some point in this post, because it speaks to something on which we've touched.

There would be a person on a 'throne' at the top of a stairwell. This was my mind. Then there was my 'body' at the bottom of the stairwell.

Medusa, I see your point here:

Velouria, your idea of the Self is a bit too esoteric in terms of how I'm talking about the whole thing. I'm talking about the psyche, not the soul/spirit. That's a whole different can of worms, and I know that it's probably near impossible to talk about the two as if they are mutually exclusive...

The difference is that the psyche is developed in our early years (per the standard definition) and the Self is what we are born with, taking away the triad that defines the psyche (Id, Ego, Superego). As for Self, I trend toward Kohut's definition. We are born with a "bipolar" system comprised of ambitions and ideals. Everyone (sorry to be absolutist) endured a narcissistic injury in the formative years. The baseline cause of that wound is "reality" and it's impact is temperance. For those of us who were exposed to trauma, abuse, etc., that injury becomes a protracted wound.

The prolonged narcissistic wound belongs not only to those with NPD but to all PDs and neuroses. It is, IMO, the central component in disorder.

KMJ's quote re: the "throned one" and the, I'll call it, "kneeling one" almost seems like a visualization of the Superego (throned) and the Id (kneeling). Somewhere on the stairway is the Ego attempting to mediate between the two. Just a momentary thought. Emotionally healthy people have healthy egos that act as the mediator/negotiator between the polarized ends. But I am slightly digressing because I don't typically think in terms of Freud's model.

The visualization could also represent the split false self with the oppressor at the throne and the oppressed in the stair well.

I regard morality is neither here nor there with regards to the False or True Self. I'm not sure that good, bad, warm, cold, pessimistic, optimistic are necessarily inherent in-born qualities of the Self, though I could be wrong. The Self is just there, as far as I'm concerned in terms of this conversation, and any qualitative issues are just superimposed upon it.

From my perspective, the Self is inherently good because it has not been tainted, poisoned, or wounded. Its goodness is in its potential, in its duality of ambition and ideal. You asked where Self ends and society begins. Looking at Kohut's definition, society begins at the baseline narcissistic injury when the ambition/ideal polarity must adapt to surroundings, such as society.

I don't want to meander too much here so I'll leave it at that. There is, of course, more to say. I may be superimposing qualitative overlays on the notion of Self. Or not. I believe we are born innocent. Is my position full of holes? Sure. But I don't have time to argue too much about it because I have work to do.

I'll also point to Kohlberg's stages of moral development as a nice adjunct to Kohut's definition of Self.

DB,

I don’t mean any offense by next comments, but all of this sounds so labyrinthine to me. All these emotions, these so called wounds, these needs... It sounds like so much self created drama to me. Don’t you wonder if this recovery saga and the epic struggle for healing is in fact precisely what you alluded to? Don’t you suspect that it’s all just theatre, with you as both the star and the audience?

No offense taken. Yes, it is quite labyrinthine. For some more than others. A healthy psyche radiates from a core and is clear and temperate. A wounded psyche is discombobulated, off-kilter, and weighted toward the wound. Getting to the wound, lifting it, and realigning the psyche can very well feel like a run through the maze. As for drama, no. Drama, again, is theater and life is theater when it is experienced not from the core Self but from the protracted wound. Question why PDers or neurotics of any sort operate the way they do, and it will always point back to the wound. We don't live. We act. We don't relate to others in an authentic way. We relate to others in fear, behind masks, in desperate hunger. I can't speak for everyone seeking recovery because we all engage in it differently, but for me it is not saga. It's merely a challenge.

Haven't read most of this stuff you are referring to, but perhaps I shall look into it.

I'm kind of hating on this capitalized letter stuff, I'm not sure why. Sometimes language bugs me.

It often seems like these discussions tend towards the Sisyphusian. Not to say this stuff is not worth considering, but we keep pushing the rock up this hill of supposed meaning, when perhaps all along the destination is the lighthouse back down in the valley, next to the lake of Ignorance is Bliss.

Just let that damn rock roll on down, and let Atlas shrug. Ain't much going on at the mountaintop anyhow, except the view.

Haha, with all the talk of real/false self isn't it interesting that it typically comes with a comparison of normality and/or normies. Much of the false self, if not all of it, comes from early childhood in which we had to treat ourselves as a function of our parents; we had to mirror them to serve their needs instead of being mirrored in return. So, in a way we're doing it right now.

Thus far, here's how I'm looking at it:

I don't have the absence of emotion I have mostly cold emotion. The few things I actually do feel are hollow and short-lived (i'm assuming lack of object constancy here), and I found this intolerable due to reasons most of us already know about. However, that cold emotion is locked in my body I just have to pay attention to it as its easy to forget this aspect. Chances are early in infancy my capability for empathy was obliterated before before I had to mirror anyone (or at the same time). Little wonder I can read people and social contexts with high degrees of accuracy, its a form of mirroring everyone else and I developed this way. Meanwhile normies never had to train this "talent" since they were busy actually developing mechanisms for meeting their emotional needs. Thus the emptiness is not only my default state its the norm, real or false self aside...as whatever I "feel" is mostly a physical sensation, just in my narcissism i considered such feelings beneath me (false self).

Basically, I developed differently than most and a couple years in therapy will never undo this development. However, developing in such a way normally leads to a misalignment. I forget how I "feel", whatever inferiority I have/had stems from the rage of such needs never being met (and that I'm not worth having them met), and that I'll compensate with taking everything else. So, with my brand of Narcissism I'm like a master of the zero sum game. If I can't have it, then you won't either, and I'll greatly enjoy watching you suffer since you'll actually feel your lose. Not to mention such behavior is the way in which I have a valid connection with others.

So, I'm hearing ya narcrecovery but there seems to be something odd in the underlying assumptions. Since I developed the way I did, I'll never be normal...period. That doesn't mean I can't be realigned in the most appropriate way. I have to pay attention to what my body tells me so I know what I'm "feeling" and its my responsibility to work accordingly. Every now and then I get similar sensations as the ones you described, but it can't be compared to, for lack of a better term, the Normie Reality. That defeats the purpose, since that would imply further comparison to everyone else, thus perpetuating a false self.

I'm a function of myself, not better not lesser, less different....with all its flaws, strengths, needs, and intuition. Now I can learn, borrow, steal, absorb, and modify whatever techniques will work for me to create my own unique solution for my best functioning. To compare myself to normies (and by the way there is plenty of early psych literature that demonstrates that everybody does the false/real self dynamic, just we're much more severe) is selling myself short.

A=1/2(x^2)-y/2
B=x^4/3z^2

Both A and B can be optimized given similar techniques. However, such optimization will be done a tad differently. If I'm A it would be my detriment to use verbatim, the exact techniques for B. Having a sensation of full feeling (what normies experience) has nothing to do with the real self. That's your therapists projection, with all his/her assumptions, upon you as to what your real self is. The point of therapy is to find your own unique solution, and mine will be a bit different than others...even those on this forum.

For me, I've never had a set personality of sorts. Also, I reject the binary of overt feeling as real self and mask as false self. My natural affectless expression with my glazed over eyes will only get me trouble. Although I have the sense of emptiness that doesn't mean that there is some feeling going on (again, in my body). So, my unique solution is to use my masks but use them appropriately. For this reason I treasure my happy faces, fake/exaggerated laughter, etc as they serve as mechanisms to fulfill those emotional needs I would naturally eradicate or repress...something like 30% authentically me, 70% mask until I know someone can handle all of it...that's my solution thusfar and if it changes then fine. That's the new "project" as opposed to using someone as a toy.

The real self is nothing more than absolute honesty with myself, and working with that honest appraisal. To compare is re-iterating the abuse that gave me the PD.

I'm kind of hating on this capitalized letter stuff...

I'm unsure what you mean by this.

It often seems like these discussions tend towards the Sisyphusian.

My all-time favorite movie is Herzog's Fitzcarraldo, a somewhat sisyphean tale though his effort to push the ship over the mountain isn't punitive but driven mostly by madness.

From Euler:

Haha, with all the talk of real/false self isn't it interesting that it typically comes with a comparison of normality and/or normies. Much of the false self, if not all of it, comes from early childhood in which we had to treat ourselves as a function of our parents; we had to mirror them to serve their needs instead of being mirrored in return. So, in a way we're doing it right now.

I loathe terms like "normie." For various reasons but most importantly because it conjures an image of someone I do not want to be. To me "normies" are just people who successfully maintain their false self image. I think that's what you're getting at when you write that by comparing oneself with "normality" we're merely playing to our early mirroring behavior.

I forget how I "feel", whatever inferiority I have/had stems from the rage of such needs never being met (and that I'm not worth having them met).

Apologies for pulling this out but it struck me as an example of what I previously referred to as the "split false self." One side is represented by inferiority and the other by grandiosity. The messaging re: inferiority came in place of a "healthy" narcissistic injury which naturally caused inborn aspirations/ideals to simultaneously cower and steel. I believe this happens to a lot of us, regardless of dx, but could be a much more combative system within someone afflicted with NPD.

As someone who had those needs met based on limited conditions and criteria and who experiences the same struggle if to a lesser degree, there is something refreshing about reading your honesty. It gives me a hope that conversations like this are not sysiphean but leading toward our happiness and freedom.

That defeats the purpose, since that would imply further comparison to everyone else, thus perpetuating a false self.

Agreed. This is precisely why I prefer the term "healthy" to "normal."

Also, I reject the binary of overt feeling as real self and mask as false self.

Will have to think this one through.

velouria wrote:

medusa wrote:I'm kind of hating on this capitalized letter stuff...

I'm unsure what you mean by this.

Oh, sorry, I was mostly just talking to myself, about myself, with all this True Self/False Self stuff. Not you. Just a random thought I probably should have just kept to myself.

velouria wrote:

medusa wrote:It often seems like these discussions tend towards the Sisyphusian.

My all-time favorite movie is Herzog's Fitzcarraldo, a somewhat sisyphean tale though his effort to push the ship over the mountain isn't punitive but driven mostly by madness.

Saw that! Herzog... the dude just doesn't give up, does he? Good for him... though I found him to be a bit ridiculous. Like that damn ship and his movie were the most important things ever in the history of the universe. Hah.

Are you referring to the documentary on the making of Fitzcarraldo? I have yet to see it and really need to. Funny how much of Werner shows up in his characters. I'm now thinking of Grizzly Man, that doc he made about the madman who insisted on living with the grizzlies season after season, only to be eaten by one.

Yes, yes, the documentary. Talk about grandiosity....

Saw Grizzly Man, enjoyed that.

medusa, I will try to track down that doc. It has such great reviews and Herzog v. Kinski is so precious.

Euler,

For me, I've never had a set personality of sorts. Also, I reject the binary of overt feeling as real self and mask as false self. My natural affectless expression with my glazed over eyes will only get me trouble. Although I have the sense of emptiness that doesn't mean that there is some feeling going on (again, in my body). So, my unique solution is to use my masks but use them appropriately. For this reason I treasure my happy faces, fake/exaggerated laughter, etc as they serve as mechanisms to fulfill those emotional needs I would naturally eradicate or repress...something like 30% authentically me, 70% mask until I know someone can handle all of it...that's my solution thusfar and if it changes then fine. That's the new "project" as opposed to using someone as a toy.

The real self is nothing more than absolute honesty with myself, and working with that honest appraisal. To compare is re-iterating the abuse that gave me the PD.

Going back to the binary... I think it's a bit more complex than that and I'll try not to bore with my opinion here (no guarantees).

Overt feeling as real self (Self)... I'm unsure what you mean by "overt feeling," whether you are referring to emotions that are elusive to you as an individual or to strong emotions of any nature. I can only generalize so I'll go with the latter for now. Emotions are indeed tied to the real self, they're just not always appropriate in the moment and/or they're not always pointed in the right direction.

A feeling of rage is real and is linked to the Self even if it isn't justified in the moment it's felt. That anger, however, is inherently justified because it is the Self thrashing in pain due to slights of long ago. Those of us who are less aware of our mechanizations may never track that feeling back to its source, only to walk through life a bubbling pot of turmoil, ready to be set off at any moment. This is where the oft-used term "trigger" comes into play.

Emotions/feelings are tenable in every case because they belong to us. It's our inability to discern their source that causes our current chaos and strife. When we get to the source and learn to be mindful of our emotions, things change for the better.

Mask as false self (Shadow)... Again, generally speaking, masks are the Shadow's tool. Masks are created for the purpose of feeding the Shadow's bottomless hunger for acknowledgment, appreciation, and attention. The Shadow doesn't have a lot going for it. It doesn't possess the aspirations and ideals and beauty of the Self. It's kind of a black hole. It needs masks to fulfill its lie that the corresponding Self is worthless and unlovable. That deep-seated sense of worthlessness is a lie of which we were informed in some form or fashion in our early years. It's a blatant lie and that parasite Shadow only serves to give us constant feed of that lie.

Another negative impact courtesy of the Shadow is that we come to believe our emotions are unjustified and so we seek to repress them. We internalize them and they become a part of us. Yet another case in which the Shadow acts as a black hole. Sometimes we are actually justified to an in-the-moment emotion. Sometimes we are truly slighted in that moment. The problem is when we can't tell what is real and what isn't because of the static provided by the Shadow.

And the same can be said for positive emotions. Sometimes we are happy (or think we are) because our Shadow is getting its needs met while the Self languishes in the corner. Sometimes we are authentically happy. It's hard to determine whether that happiness is healthy when there is a big bad Shadow demanding its version of "satisfaction" at the expense of the Self's desire for basic contentment.

Again, all generalizations and only my opinion based on my own path. And apologies if I meandered.

For this reason I treasure my happy faces, fake/exaggerated laughter, etc as they serve as mechanisms to fulfill those emotional needs I would naturally eradicate or repress...

Could you expand? I was under the impression from your previous posts that your emotional realm was very limited. Now you mention eradicating and repressing emotions. Is this what causes you to feel an emotional dearth or are you referring to what minimal emotions you feel? I don't mean to challenge you, only to understand.

Oh, and I appreciate your use of the term "optimization." Good stuff.

Oh, no worries. Okay how to put this...not that it really matters but it sounds like you don't have a cluster B PD, or any PD for that matter. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. That's the first thing that has to be specified before we can truly find common ground, not trying to set you apart just saying that there's a difference in perspectives. Second is the failure of English. I'm well familiar with Jung and where your going with the term mask, but for folks like myself it has an entirely different meaning.

I'm speaking literally here, and please do your best to really listen and not compare it to your experiences. To do so would defeat the purpose since you'd read and translate what I'm saying into your empathic world view:

Literally speaking, I don't have a set personality. I have a small range of natural affect, so most of it is faked and what affect I do have is so minimal it would set people off...so often times it has to be exaggerated. The only solid, real felt emotions, are hate I know I'm not unique in this. There are some other overt (really felt) feelings but they're hollow and leave within a very short duration. Even the anger is hollow and short-lived. The cold emotion. I know I get anxiety and other things because I can feel a sensation in my body, much in the same way I know when I have a runny nose. However, ignoring or forgetting to take care of this cold emotion caused wreckage in my life so I have to watch them.

So, good for you...you can actually feel your emotions, and your emotional needs and when they're unmet. That has nothing to do with me or with my situation, and for such reasons my solution to living my "real self" will look nothing like yours and that's okay. There's an entire school of therapists that believe in helping the client manage the PD because it works. Also, Psychology has a rather poor record at curing anything but a pretty good record at managing various things. In short for any normie, and yes the term is applicable since there are general psychological patterns that the majority have, to inflict their definition of healthy upon me is implicitly expecting me to not be me and mirror them. Basically living a false self without doing damage....sorry, but there's nothing in doing so for me.

So I put my ugly, "demonic", disordered foot on the floor at such a preposterous notion and thankfully my therapists agrees whole-heartedly. Any thing otherwise is a symptom of an intolerant society that would lead to my detriment. I'm responsible for good actions and if it takes a "mask" to mimic everyone else to do it, then that should be okay as long as I'm meeting my authentic needs and following the rules. Everybody's real self will be a tad different given his/her situation and we all need to be okay with that.

Euler wrote:Oh, no worries. Okay how to put this...not that it really matters but it sounds like you don't have a cluster B PD, or any PD for that matter. Please correct me if I'm wrong here. That's the first thing that has to be specified before we can truly find common ground, not trying to set you apart just saying that there's a difference in perspectives. Second is the failure of English. I'm well familiar with Jung and where your going with the term mask, but for folks like myself it has an entirely different meaning.

I'm speaking literally here, and please do your best to really listen and not compare it to your experiences. To do so would defeat the purpose since you'd read and translate what I'm saying into your empathic world view:

Literally speaking, I don't have a set personality. I have a small range of natural affect, so most of it is faked and what affect I do have is so minimal it would set people off...so often times it has to be exaggerated. The only solid, real felt emotions, are hate I know I'm not unique in this. There are some other overt (really felt) feelings but they're hollow and leave within a very short duration. Even the anger is hollow and short-lived. The cold emotion. I know I get anxiety and other things because I can feel a sensation in my body, much in the same way I know when I have a runny nose. However, ignoring or forgetting to take care of this cold emotion caused wreckage in my life so I have to watch them.

So, good for you...you can actually feel your emotions, and your emotional needs and when they're unmet. That has nothing to do with me or with my situation, and for such reasons my solution to living my "real self" will look nothing like yours and that's okay. There's an entire school of therapists that believe in helping the client manage the PD because it works. Also, Psychology has a rather poor record at curing anything but a pretty good record at managing various things. In short for any normie, and yes the term is applicable since there are general psychological patterns that the majority have, to inflict their definition of healthy upon me is implicitly expecting me to not be me and mirror them. Basically living a false self without doing damage....sorry, but there's nothing in doing so for me.

So I put my ugly, "demonic", disordered foot on the floor at such a preposterous notion and thankfully my therapists agrees whole-heartedly. Any thing otherwise is a symptom of an intolerant society that would lead to my detriment. I'm responsible for good actions and if it takes a "mask" to mimic everyone else to do it, then that should be okay as long as I'm meeting my authentic needs and following the rules. Everybody's real self will be a tad different given his/her situation and we all need to be okay with that.

Well said. I was going to chime in and say almost exactly what you just laid out.

Just adding my +1 here.

K1