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Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

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Re: Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Postby Daniel Birdick » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:15 pm

Again Velouria, I am most familiar with the Eastern religious version of Self, which is often equated with consciousness prior to thought and emotion. If that is what you mean by Self, then yes, I can see how refocusing attention on consciousness would feel like relief. I’m guessing you mean something else by it though.

velouria wrote:Today they serve as obstacles and guides to unhealthy behaviors.


If these behaviours are causing you pain then yes, it makes sense to change them. Equating the Self with traits that seem desirable or undesirable is a sure fire way to remain on an emotional roller coaster ride though. Or so it seems to me.

There are no "new meanings" for those seemingly negative traits.


Negativity is in the eye of the beholder.

The meanings as I refer to them are not set in stone. You are free to reinterpret and create meanings as you see fit. If you divorced feeling good about yourself from the role of counsellor, you might find that you can enjoy it for its own sake. You could continue to counsel freely, knowing full well that what the other person does with your advice is their business entirely and that it has nothing to do with who you are. That is one way you might reinterpret the mask of counsellor, for instance. In fact, I would say it isn’t the mask that leaves you feeling gutted; it’s the meaning you attach to wearing it that induces the pain. Change the meaning, change the emotion.

But that is easy for me to say because I don’t connect my own sense of self with what other people do or don’t do. I know that I wear masks and I do so for a variety of reasons. None of them hinder me emotionally unless I let them thru ignorance or misunderstanding.
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Re: Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Postby velouria » Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:29 pm

Again Velouria, I am most familiar with the Eastern religious version of Self, which is often equated with consciousness prior to thought and emotion. If that is what you mean by Self, then yes, I can see how refocusing attention on consciousness would feel like relief. I’m guessing you mean something else by it though.


I am pretty unfamiliar with Eastern thought myself though I do know what consciousness means (clarity, awareness, alertness) and that it requires practice and mindfulness. So let me describe what I mean this way... The Self is the "us" that we are born with. Maybe it's the soul or the life force. Or the person who resides within the shell of flesh and bones. Refocusing effort on consciousness gives us access to the Self. When that effort becomes practice the Self is more easily attained on a regular basis and under most circumstances. The Self is pure, good, positive, warm, innocent, content, curious, etc. Those of us with access to the Self reflect those attributes in an authentic way.

Equating the Self with traits that seem desirable or undesirable is a sure fire way to remain on an emotional roller coaster ride though. Or so it seems to me.


Hmmm. Not sure why this would be. Could you expand? By the Self I mean the "true self." And then there is the false self or what Jung called the Shadow Self, which can be best represented, IMO, by the masks which serve to prevent the Shadow Self from being exposed.

I remember feeling a sense of relief in acknowledging my Shadow Self - this happened when I received my dx. It was like, "Oh, I don't have to hide her anymore." I tried to make light of it; tried to turn it into a humorous foible. It's the stuff Woody Allen movies are made of. But that was just another mask. The silly neurotic. A clown.

In fact, I would say it isn’t the mask that leaves you feeling gutted; it’s the meaning you attach to wearing it that induces the pain. Change the meaning, change the emotion.


I didn't mean to say that counseling friends is a bad thing per se. Only that this particular trait was introduced during a time in my life when I needed a new crutch, it worked at the time, and over the years had become a drain to my system. Lucy is taking down her "Psychiatric Help" sign and doing away with that mask as a feature of her personality. She will no longer be so quick to respond to requests for advice. She will no longer feel a sense of belonging because someone else has a problem. Really, that's the most disgusting thing about it. I got off on other people's problems while appearing altruistic, even to myself. Let's be real.

Doesn't mean I'll never give out another piece of advice. Only that I am focusing less on that mask as well as the others and focusing more on my Self. Meeting that person's needs. Doing what that person likes to do.

But that is easy for me to say because I don’t connect my own sense of self with what other people do or don’t do.


Please expand on this, as well, if you can. I don't know your background so I'm unsure what you mean by this. I feel like you're staying that it's OK to have masks - the meanings behind them just have to change. But the masks are false from the get-go. So what's the use? Why maintain them? Changing the meaning behind an already false construct seems like more of the same to me, and a bit of unnecessary labor.

Thanks for the dialogue.
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Look what happens with a love like that.
It lights up the whole sky. ~ Hafiz

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Re: Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Postby Daniel Birdick » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:50 am

My definition of consciousness: the internal space within which all thought and emotion appears. It does not need to be cultivated. It simply is.

Your definition of Self sounds spiritual to me. I am not a spiritual person, so rather than debate you on your definition, I’ll leave it be.

velouria wrote:Could you expand? By the Self I mean the "true self." And then there is the false self or what Jung called the Shadow Self, which can be best represented, IMO, by the masks which serve to prevent the Shadow Self from being exposed.


You equated undesirable traits with masks, which you then in turn equated with a false self. Then you juxtaposed this false self against a true self. I assume that this true self is the opposite of the false self, meaning that the true self is not a mask but is real and is comprised of desirable traits. Desirable traits=real=true self. To quote you directly, the true self is “good, positive, warm, innocent, content, curious” and so on.

That is the reason I suggested that equating your Self with the above traits can be a roller coaster ride. When you experience the opposite of the above, when you feel bad or negative or cold or cynical or discontent or close minded, you must experience yourself as bad and false. When you are up, you are up. When you are down, you are down. That sounds like the essence of neuroticism. And that is fine if that’s what you want. But consciousness, prior to thought and emotion, is itself free of the up and down, the yin and yang of the individual self. It is free because it is the space within which up and down emotions occur. It is the foundation of equanimity.

Doing what that person likes to do.


But didn’t you like to give advice?

Please expand on this, as well, if you can. I don't know your background so I'm unsure what you mean by this.

I am amoral. I don’t see things as good or bad, in and of themselves. Things are what they are. Masks are no more false than you believe they are. My own sense of self is independent of the masks I consciously wear and I don’t label them as bad or good. I label them as useful or not useful, as the crow flies. It is a much simpler and cleaner process. It seems to me that you are equating who you are with someone is who recovering from their so called bad or undesirable self. Is that working well for you?

And I hate to break to ya, but it’s “masks” all the way down.

Thanks for the dialogue.


Right back at ya! :D
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Re: Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Postby velouria » Sat Jul 24, 2010 4:47 pm

Your definition of Self sounds spiritual to me.


Possibly. Or mysterious. I accept that there are things that cannot be explained. Yet. Though I'm sure we could drum up papers pointing to the biological make-up of the Self, all leading to optimized reproduction, of course. :wink:

That is the reason I suggested that equating your Self with the above traits can be a roller coaster ride. When you experience the opposite of the above, when you feel bad or negative or cold or cynical or discontent or close minded, you must experience yourself as bad and false. When you are up, you are up. When you are down, you are down. That sounds like the essence of neuroticism. And that is fine if that’s what you want. But consciousness, prior to thought and emotion, is itself free of the up and down, the yin and yang of the individual self. It is free because it is the space within which up and down emotions occur. It is the foundation of equanimity.


In response to the underscored, actually, no, because those are fleeting emotions that can be rationalized. If one feels discontent or close-mindedness, that is an opportunity for reason and understanding. Coldness, cynicism, negativity, all the same. Those emotions are a combination of legacy and external factors. They are not inherent to a person's Self.

Yes, as a neurotic, I might ride that rollercoaster. But as a recovering neurotic, I learn to assess situations in which I feel those things, rationalize my emotion against the external factor, and either remove myself from the situation or re-align my perceptions. Each negative emotion you list has a different "purpose" so each will have a different appropriate response. I learn to not accept them as my own. Because they don't belong to me. They are fleeting. They need not be absorbed - as is the standard reaction for most people possessing a PD (or neurosis).

But didn’t you like to give advice?


Of course and I didn't mean to imply that I would never give advice again. Only that the mask is being discarded. I think you're missing the subtle yet powerful mechanism that is the desire for acceptance. I am gathering that you don't possess that. Many do, including Narcissists. To the degree that recognition is like a drug.

I am amoral. I don’t see things as good or bad, in and of themselves. Things are what they are. Masks are no more false than you believe they are. My own sense of self is independent of the masks I consciously wear and I don’t label them as bad or good. I label them as useful or not useful, as the crow flies. It is a much simpler and cleaner process. It seems to me that you are equating who you are with someone is who recovering from their so called bad or undesirable self. Is that working well for you?


Why are you amoral? Is this self-cultivated, bred by external factors, or naturally occurring? Most people are not amoral, including myself, so I have a hard time understanding how one can operate without a sense of morality. Most are born with it and it develops (or heightens) over time regardless of external constraints such as dogma. Most of us do see things as good or bad, though not in such black-and-white terms. And that's a good thing. It's why we have discourse.

And, yes, masks are very useful. For emotionally wounded or devoid people, they are absolutely useful. My point is that I prefer to strengthen my emotional core and be done with the masks. It's hard to say whether it's working well for me because I am currently in a flux state. When you're taking a sledgehammer to the old fortress, it's tough to say how the new order is working. Though I've had glimpses and opportunities and that greater sense of contentment which is the ultimate goal.

And sometimes it's really painful and scary. I was paralyzed when I realized many of those masks and identified their purposes and inevitable outcomes. But their release is even sweeter. Just last night I caught myself pulling one of the masks that has proven most nefarious. I immediately realized the emptiness of that action and then went back to my standard operating procedure (my Self). Got off the rail and went back to enjoying myself in an authentic way.

And I hate to break to ya, but it’s “masks” all the way down.


So be it. Since we're in the Narcissist forum, I approach this conversation with the notion that most people, including Narcissists, have something crucial and bright at their core. Difficult to access, but there regardless.
‎The sun never says to the earth, "You owe me."
Look what happens with a love like that.
It lights up the whole sky. ~ Hafiz

When in doubt, sit on the stoop and play the ukulele.
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Re: Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Postby Daniel Birdick » Sun Jul 25, 2010 12:16 am

velouria wrote:those are fleeting emotions that can be rationalized. .. They are not inherent to a person's Self.


Why? Why should negative emotions be excluded from what is real and true? Positive emotions are just as fleeting, just as temporary, as negative ones. The Self would have to be as present in the midst of pain as it is in pain’s opposite.

I think you're missing the subtle yet powerful mechanism that is the desire for acceptance. I am gathering that you don't possess that.


Not really, no. I am grateful for that.

Why are you amoral? Is this self-cultivated, bred by external factors, or naturally occurring?


All the above. My emotional/moral button is turned down, compared to the average person’s. I was born relatively cool and with little conscience.

My point is that I prefer to strengthen my emotional core and be done with the masks.


This emotional core you refer to is itself another mask, another belief the egoic mind clings to in its never ending effort to pretend that it is more than it is.

Though I've had glimpses and opportunities and that greater sense of contentment which is the ultimate goal.


Change your thinking, change your feeling. Contentment shouldn’t be that hard of an emotional state to create. Unless of course you prefer all the drama that goes along with a struggle to recover.

Since we're in the Narcissist forum, I approach this conversation with the notion that most people, including Narcissists, have something crucial and bright at their core. Difficult to access, but there regardless.


I approach conversations here with the notion that the core of most people’s inner world is clear and empty, neither good nor bad, neither bright nor dark.
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Re: Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Postby velouria » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:01 am

Why? Why should negative emotions be excluded from what is real and true? Positive emotions are just as fleeting, just as temporary, as negative ones. The Self would have to be as present in the midst of pain as it is in pain’s opposite.


I didn't write that negative emotions aren't real and true. I'm not denying their existence. Obviously if there is pleasure there must be pain. My point is that those who carry narcissistic wound - the very thing that foments PDs and neurosis - accept negative feelings and emotions as if they are a reflection of the Self. Wounds are like magnets for this stuff.

I see negative emotions as signs. I feel x, it means y, therefore I must do z. Done. No need to absorb x into my psyche. I'm not saying x doesn't exist. I'm saying x does not define me. Who I am inherently is a positive, content, capable, vital entity. Is this pop psych? Maybe. If you consider a nearly century old brain trust "pop," then your answer is "yes." Me, I consider it Will to Power of the emotional realm.

Contentment shouldn’t be that hard of an emotional state to create. Unless of course you prefer all the drama that goes along with a struggle to recover.


Contentment is not a difficult state to create when one is not afflicted with a narcissistic wound. Those of us who were less fortunate in our formative years - we who were poisoned, lied to, led to believe that we are damaged - have found contentment to be a bit elusive if not completely unattainable. This was the lie we were taught by caregivers who were taught the very same lie in their own formative years. And so it goes.

The wound is entirely healable. For some the task is more strenuous than it is for others. For some the battle between the "selves" is more epic, so much that even the Shadow can be split and do battle amongst its fragments. But that still does not deny the existence of a crucial and bright core. Rather, it speaks to the intricacy and resilience of the human psyche.

As for "all the drama that goes along with a struggle to recover..." No drama here. Drama is theater. It is unreal. Recovery is very real with tangible results. If by "drama" you mean "challenge," then, no, I do not prefer the challenge. I'm just willing to accept it in order to assure my own emotional well-being.
‎The sun never says to the earth, "You owe me."
Look what happens with a love like that.
It lights up the whole sky. ~ Hafiz

When in doubt, sit on the stoop and play the ukulele.
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Re: Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Postby medusa » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:33 am

Velouria, your idea of the Self is a bit too esoteric in terms of how I'm talking about the whole thing. I'm talking about the psyche, not the soul/spirit. That's a whole different can of worms, and I know that it's probably near impossible to talk about the two as if they are mutually exclusive...

I regard morality is neither here nor there with regards to the False or True Self. I'm not sure that good, bad, warm, cold, pessimistic, optimistic are necessarily inherent in-born qualities of the Self, though I could be wrong. The Self is just there, as far as I'm concerned in terms of this conversation, and any qualitative issues are just superimposed upon it.

I think at least a good portion of morality is learned, and anything inherent is only there for the good of society at large, and not the individual. But that's a whole other question: where does the Self end and the World begin? Anyway, blah... I'm trying not to go there but I guess it's unavoidable... but in the end it seems that this all points towards the war between the Id, the Ego and the Super-Ego. I know that this is simplifiying things, but from here it looks like Daniel is coming from an Id perspective, while you are coming from a Super-Ego perspective, but we all seem to be fighting against the Ego.

Anyway... to get back to a lower level of discussion:

To me, the False Self, or the "mask" (in terms of narcissism) is merely there to avoid pain. Pain from the outside world, pain from the inside world in which you feel your real self is unworthy of existing. I'm not talking about the masks that pretty much everyone wears to get along in the world and deal with other people, I'm talking about the mask that is so pervasive that it feels like it's your real face, at least until you can step back from yourself far enough to parse it all out (ego death or some such). The True Self is not necessarily better than the False Self, as I'm thinking that value judgments here are irrelevant; I think the issue here is that perhaps one is more honest than the other. The True Self in the sense that I'm talking about is merely the personality (not the soul) that is not dependent on whether it's existence results in pain when dealing with other people, or whether it is inherently worthy or unworthy, according to some invisible universal code.

Sorry, no real point to this post, and I'm not sure any of these even makes sense; just throwing stuff out there.
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Re: Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Postby medusa » Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:41 am

Just read your last post Velouria, which was posted while I was writing mine. I think half of what I said is not a good response to what you are saying, and is perhaps tangential. This is a very difficult discussion and it's kind of all over the place.

velouria wrote:I didn't write that negative emotions aren't real and true. I'm not denying their existence. Obviously if there is pleasure there must be pain. My point is that those who carry narcissistic wound - the very thing that foments PDs and neurosis - accept negative feelings and emotions as if they are a reflection of the Self. Wounds are like magnets for this stuff.


Yes.
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Re: Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Postby Daniel Birdick » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:04 am

Velouria, this has been an interesting discussion. I have not talked with anyone who says they have a “narcissistic wound” before, although I have the distinct displeasure of being in the same family with a few people who I believe come close to being narcissists themselves. I have never discussed this kind of thing with them. This is my first time interacting on a forum explicitly for those who say they are narcissists.

I don’t mean any offense by next comments, but all of this sounds so labyrinthine to me. All these emotions, these so called wounds, these needs... It sounds like so much self created drama to me. Don’t you wonder if this recovery saga and the epic struggle for healing is in fact precisely what you alluded to? Don’t you suspect that it’s all just theatre, with you as both the star and the audience?

medusa wrote:from here it looks like Daniel is coming from an Id perspective...


That sounds vaguely naughty! :wink: Seriously, I am not conversant on Freud. Tell me what you mean by this.
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Re: Conflicts in understanding myself as a narcissist

Postby medusa » Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:20 am

Well, the Id refers to the instinctual drives, i.e. the hedonistic pleasure principle, the desire to avoid pain, the basic survival instinct. Sex, food, fun and creation. Fight or flight, life and death.

In this context, I'm focusing on the fact that the duality of value concepts such a good/bad, right/wrong, good/evil, pure/unclean, better/worse, virtue/sin, true/false, are irrelevant to the Id.

So yeah, dark and naughty, amoral and selfish. From the perspective of most people, anyway.
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