Sub-types of NPD.

Some people think that every NPDer has some kind of a fragile mask, whatever. No they don't, only coverts have fragile masks beneath which they anxiously tremble.
Overt NPDers will take you on, there's nothing fragile about them, they're not wearing a mask and if they are it's a mask of humility, a fragile one.

If a person with overt NPD actually has NPD, the difference is that instead of anxiously trembling they will angrily rage to push away any potential for inferiority.

I would suggest overt narcissists don't seek out competition to prove themselves, they seek out easy-win situations and when they do lose they use denial and projection to avoid seeing that loss. I think you're right that overt narcissists who are primarily NPD rarely wear masks.

I think both have an underlying fear but the overt narcissist is removed from that fear by both base-level and surface level defences, while the covert narcissist you describe has less luxury of obliviousness.

I think a greater level of self-awareness - for whatever reason, is actually one of the factors which contributes to a person developing a covert rather than overt form of NPD.

When you start looking at narcissists who are egocentric because they don't have empathy instead of narcissists who lack empathy because they are narcissists (and all of the causes that come with that), I think you start blurring the lines into psychopathy.

katana wrote:

Some people think that every NPDer has some kind of a fragile mask, whatever. No they don't, only coverts have fragile masks beneath which they anxiously tremble.
Overt NPDers will take you on, there's nothing fragile about them, they're not wearing a mask and if they are it's a mask of humility, a fragile one.

If a person with overt NPD actually has NPD, the difference is that instead of anxiously trembling they will angrily rage to push away any potential for inferiority.

The difference is that the overt NPD is not afraid to rage.

I would suggest overt narcissists don't seek out competition to prove themselves, they seek out easy-win situations and when they do lose they use denial and projection to avoid seeing that loss. I think you're right that overt narcissists who are primarily NPD rarely wear masks.

Yes, this sounds even better.

I think both have an underlying fear but the overt narcissist is removed from that fear by both base-level and surface level defences, while the covert narcissist you describe has less luxury of obliviousness.

The overt narcissist learned he can take rewards by agression.
The covert narcissist learned he can't take rewards by agression and rewards can be taken from him by agression(by the overt)
The covert narcissist learned he must either work for rewards or steal them
The covert narcissist learned he must hide his efforts in order to obtain rewards safely

The overt/covert mind state depends entirely on the perception of the environment. The over narcissist will switch into covert mode when relating to superiors. This is only temporary - pretense, he is by default overt(in relation to unknown people). The covert is also able to play the overt narc when relating to inferiors, but he is by default(in relation to unknown people) covert. The covert must make sure they are inferior before he acts overt. The overt must learn they superior in order to force himself to be covert.

Why is the covert by default covert and overt by default overt I can only guess. IMO it's the childhood win/loss experience. The ratio between wins/losses and/or if the losses are experienced stronger the win/loss will be biased even if the number of wins and losses are the same.

OverwhelmedFear wrote:Hello heracles

In the past I often asked my therapist what if I have Borderline or something else because I was seeking a way out of my problems and especially my social problems. My therapist said that I´m not and that I think that I could have something else than GAD because I try to avoid situations and I think that he is right and I should have learned more about GAD than reading something about other psychological issues.Like NPDs I´m often in a hurry and have a kind of perfection. I´m everything else but not perfect and even not average. I´m in a hurry because I feel defenceless, anxious and I seek help and safety. I have a kind of perfection because I try to avoid unforseeable terrible situations.

But like NPDs I overcompensate. I overcompensate my unsureness and like NPDs I sometimes wear a mask. I try to overplay my social anxiety. Sometimes people say that I'm arrogant because I don´t talk with them. But it´s because I avoid social interactions, even I would like to.

Sounds like GAD with Clinical Depression (bipolar 2 maybe) you might have some overlap or some other PD traits but this novices onions based on what I have read is GAD + MDD.
This response is over a year late so maybe you will not find it. oh well.

I just wonder: are there narcissists who happen to be ugly and unintelligent?

Cat Eyes wrote:

THe problem with PD's, is that we have people without PD's to compare ourselves to. If every person on the planet and every person who had always been on the planet, all had BPD or OCD or whatever, then it wouldn't be a disorder. It'd just be the way people are.

Of course. But there is a reason PDs are not normal i.e. the majority of the population does not have them.

Can you imagine a world in which everyone had NPD and BPD? It would be complete chaos.

From a purely evolutionary perspective, our species could never have flourished if PDs were a part of normal behavior.

What the hell is this "normal" you speak of. IMO no one is "normal". If a man waits on a woman hand and foot(gag) he is co-dependent, if a man is assertive and sure of himself he is NPD. You could sum up any personality type in a relationship/interaction with a PD. There is no textbook way to behave. It boils down to the communication, respect and tolerance of either party. Just my 2 cents.

i think if you would go to a shrink they are called co-morbidity (if you have to much of those i think it's the shrinks way of saying he.she just don't know)
so not a real npd but npd with a bit of... and a dash of ...
the dsm is made for dummys you ether have it or you don't
and you can have a lot of stuff (and they can make a lot of money off you)

deadratt wrote:I just found this intriguing dissertation. It appears to provide a good overview of the evolution of thought regarding narcissism.

He mostly discusses two subtypes classed as overt and covert.

I agree with this 100%. There are definitely overts and coverts, and the only one most people seem to know about is the overt NPD. The covet NPD's are less in the bragging department, and the overt NPD's are more in the "show-offy" department.

What's the difference between a covert narcissist and someone with avoidant personality disorder?

saudade7 wrote:What's the difference between a covert narcissist and someone with avoidant personality disorder?

Avoidants have emotional empathy, actually they have it in abudance. They can feel people's emotions so intensely that they have to avoid them (the people), as it is too much for their nervous systems to cope.

I think the narcissists do not have that type of emotional empathy.

HopelessRomantic wrote:

saudade7 wrote:What's the difference between a covert narcissist and someone with avoidant personality disorder?

Avoidants have emotional empathy, actually they have it in abudance. They can feel people's emotions so intensely that they have to avoid them (the people), as it is too much for their nervous systems to cope.

I think the narcissists do not have that type of emotional empathy.

I disagree with the bolded above. Avoidants have as much empathy as any average person. They don't avoid to dodge other people's emotions but because they have such a horrible, low opinion of themselves that they feel no one would like them. It's pointless to put yourself out there for judgement when you know you will be judges negatively right? so why try.