the inner-life of a narcissist?

When I am reading about narcissism I often find ideas like this repeated:

The narc has no self
has no real emotions (but has learned to simulate them)
is incapable of giving or receiving love

Although this does seem to explain a lot of narcissistic behaviors, I feel some confusion about how these ideas have been arrived at and how these things can be known with certainty.

Does anybody know more about this?

A narc will tell you himself.

My ex-partner has often said his 'inside' is like a black hole. He blames his 'black' moods for his suicidal thoughts and tendencies. More recently I was speaking to him about internal beliefs and values, and I told him what one of mine was. His face was totally blank, so I explained to him how I know it's a belief coz it's something I feel strongly about and it feels like it comes from inside me. I asked him if he had any values or beliefs and he said, "No." So I asked him if he knew what I was talking about, and he said, "No, it makes no sense to me." I asked him if he had an inner belief. He said, "No, I don't." At which stage I walked away.

Even more recent than that, he said he came home from his support group and said they had been speaking about empathy. To which I asked him what had he learned. His response, "I've learned that I don't have it."

So, see, a Narc will tell you that himself, but they don't do anything with the knowledge that they know they are empty of feeling inside.

All narcs and even pesonality disordered one's, do at some stages and times, have a slight vague, nagging feeling that something ain't right with them, but the feeling quickly passes. Many, such as my ex, think they have depression and think medications will fix it. Or they have a family, or begin a new relationship, or they chase pipe dreams, change careers, homes, countries regularly in the hope that these activities will fill the dark void, but none of it ever does.

HOpe that answers your question.

Thanks, Shivers. Those descriptions really do help give a sense of what is going on there (or, should I say, what is not going on)...

I wonder what "love" means to a narc? what does "happiness" mean?

Just words?

Even if they can't experience love, they must form a concept of it. What is the concept based on?

They want it desperately from others, even though they are incapable of giving it themselves. But if they can't give it because they don't experience it, how do they even know what they are getting?

Maybe the knowledge of their target's subjugation is enough?

someone says they love me = I win!

and I wonder how the narc experiences guilt...

It seems like there must be some experience of guilt there and that it must be very intense and terrifying if they will go to any lengths to deny it, to deflect it, to shift responsibility onto us?

When a baby is born, he doesn't understand the existence of the external world. He thinks that all the world is a part of him as it had been in the womb. He has no identity, because he don't feel separate of anything. He is everything. Freud called this phase "primary narcissism". That's how everyone's life has begun.

It takes over 15 years of physical and mental development to grow a full human being. Physical development proceeds genetic way and - optimally - mental development follows growing physical abilities. For a physically healthy child it is the environments (caretakers [usually mother] and community) responsibility to develop a sound mind.

The first year, before learning of language begin, is crucial. A child should be given all care he needs, his cries should be responded; he shouldn't be left alone when he needs a caretaker. In safe care he will find and accept that he is a separate person, and his identity with own boundaries begin to develop. Lack of identity is lack of boundaries.

With his caretaker a child learns what humans are like. A child follows catertaker's eyes, familiarizes to her face, body and sound, and imitates her. By all interaction, including especially that the child has a chance to notice and understand that his caretaker understands his feelings, the ability to understand his caretaker's feelings begin to develop. This is empathy. If you don't understand that other people have same emotions you have, you are doomed to treat them unemotionally.

It is often said that narcissism is due to child's bad treatment, which refers to neglect or even violence. That's not accurate, a caretaker may have good intentions but s/he simple don't know how to treat a child - though "all you need is love"; advices, books, schedules and programs are secondary.

Humans are flexible, and the failures in the beginning of life can more or less be cured later. Actually, no one is perfect. But if your all childhood is one big failure, you hardly grow a sane and happy adult.

SoSal wrote:
I wonder what "love" means to a narc? what does "happiness" mean?

Just words?

Sosal,

I asked my NP the very question the other day. No response as of yet, but I will get back to you on that.

From my prospective, not being a Narc but a NS:

The Narc is like a child. He says to his father. addy, I love you so much! I will get good grades, so that you can be proud of me. (words only) HE CANNOT DO IT. He knows that he cannot do it.

Subsequently he fails. So the father says: If you'd really loved me you would have gotten A's. He expresses his discontent: Failure in school =my son does not love me. (the father knows that it is not exactly the case, but a promise is a promise)

Round #2: The boy tells his father that he must believe him. The father's disbelieve weakens the boys ability to attain good grades. (the blame is shifted). So, the father says: "reality is that promised to be an eminent student, but you did not fulfill the promise." He might even insinuate that the boy lied. So, the boy is perplexed: He is not only a failure, but he a liar.
He is now doomed, because he is not good, cannot be a good student either, and his fathers attitude is translated as: "he does not love me, because if he did, he would accept me as I am, without conditions." Hence: unconditional love.

So, the father has two choices: He accepts the fact, or pushes him to work harder. A good father wants to best for his son, so he cannot be satisfied with bad result. The dynamics are now different. The boy not only needs to prove that he is worthy, but doing so only takes him back to square #1. Too much effort for very little gain. The easy way out is to blame his father for not believing in him...

The narcissist expression of love is some sort of precondition: I love you, but why should i go through all the hassle of proving it to you, when you do not believe me... and who could? When reality is broken promises, lack of responsibility, blaming others for their own failure.

SoSal wrote:When I am reading about narcissism I often find ideas like this repeated:

The narc has no self
has no real emotions (but has learned to simulate them)
is incapable of giving or receiving love

Although this does seem to explain a lot of narcissistic behaviors, I feel some confusion about how these ideas have been arrived at and how these things can be known with certainty.

Does anybody know more about this?

The answer is summarised well by the question. The narcissist has no self. He has no real emotions (but has learned to simulate them). He is incapable of giving love (I don't see how he could be incapable of recieving it, seeing it is not in his domain). Mind you I'd probably reword the last point 'he is incapable of sharing love'- because love in this context is really a concept based in mutuality.

How have these ideas been arrived at? I'm not certain, empiricism perhaps. They are all true, I see not how they were discovered to be such as too relevant (unless one questions them, which is not at all unreasonable). A pedant like myself will tell you nothing can bee known with certainty, however, as noted, this is pedantry. You can know the aforementioned analyses of the narcissistic composition simply by asking a narcissist- few are deluded enough to be unaware of this fundamental all-defining crux of their state of being. So long as he feels he has nothing to lose, he'll snatch at the opportunity to talk to you about himself.

Speaking of which, having first hand experience with the matter, I am more than happy to go into any further detail you may wish to explore.

digital.noface wrote:

SoSal wrote:
Speaking of which, having first hand experience with the matter, I am more than happy to go into any further detail you may wish to explore.

Digital,

Can you answer the questions below? What can I expect from a Narc when she says she loves me? For a fleeting moment I attempt to quantify her love towards me. Her actions do not express what I would describe as "being loved". I do not get it.

I wonder what "love" means to a narc? what does "happiness" mean?

It's questions like this which is where the writings of Sam Vaknin can come in handy.

At one stage he says that a narc will experience 'love' such as we'd experiencing loving our new car, presumably one we'd saved up a long time for and had wanted for some time.

After observing my X-NPD partner I agree with this description. Particularly, when I observe the 'love' he has for his daughter.

She's a pretty little thing, and he spends time taking her photo and having her displayed at his work. People interpret this as a 'doting and loving father' display, but in fact it is not. Although he goes through the motions of admiring his daughter to others, behind closed doors he yells and hisses at her and tells her to "Piss Off" This is not the actions of a loving and doting father.

So in the end, one comes to the conclusion that the photo's he has at work, one's he sends to friends and family via email, the way he speaks about her attributes to his family are all about her being a 'trophy' daughter. Much the same way as someone would show off their bright, clean and shiny new car.

So love for the narc is again, really all about himself. If you can get your head around that concept, then you can begin to understand their emotions of 'love'.

I had to witness it in action to believe it and understand it.

PS: His family consider him a devoted, loving, encouraging and doting father. I see someone who's 'fed up' with his daughter after 20 mins.

oh, and the happiness question.

In my experience, my X-narc really only experienced 'happiness' when someone else was feeling pulled down, he'd get a momentary 'high'. It's the tall-poppy syndrome taken to the micro.

Or, he'd exhibit happiness when others were paying him attention.

Can you see how their feelings are externalised?

shivers wrote:experienced 'happiness' when someone else was feeling pulled down, he'd get a momentary 'high'. It's the tall-poppy syndrome taken to the micro.

lol