should I stay or go

Hi I recently realized that my husband has NPD. He is undiagnosed yet fits the bill completely. Our marriage has been horrible for me. This is the problem. We have a two year old together. He seems to be generally a good father. The only thing is that he tries to instill all his interests and beliefs in him in an extreme degree. He also won't take any advice on care of him, actually, will do the opposite many times. I have two children from a previous marriage that he treats with indifference. He doesn't even acknowledge their prescence. He only points out their faults or something he thinks is 'bad behavior' to me. And gets very angry since he views everything including them having friends over is a problem for him. They don't do enough, their friends are untrustworthy, and etc. I'm concerned about getting a divorce since he is very vindictive. I owned my house before we got married and he won't leave. Furthermore, I'm concerned about my two year old since if I divorce him I won't be able to keep an eye on the treatment and stuff he tries to instill during his visitation. Should I stay for the sake of my two year old or should I leave for the sake of my two other children and myself. My children are teenagers.
If I stay how do I suggest treatment and diagnosis. He couldn't even stay in marriage counciling for two months and basically thought the therapist was making things worse. Please help Is there a possibility that he will turn on his own son when at this point he seems to be the only thing that matters to him?

jenny,
you must understand that these people are the most difficult to treat because they are convinced there is nothing wrong with them. he will never change and in the long run will do irreparable damage to your daughter and to you, too. for your own sake and the sake of your daughter, put together a plan of action that will have you out of his life forever. talk to a lawyer. these people do not deserve a second chance, but you do.

Jenny, I'm 4 weeks out of a relationship with a diagnosed NPD and we have a 4.25 year old together. At the end of this month I would have been with him 6 years. I thank God and my intuition that I'm out.

My best advice is to plan, plan, plan. Get the best financial advice you can, find out what's yours and what may not be, even if it's not, think about taking it as yours anyway. Start squirreling money away, whichever way you can.

You'll need to do all this in private, if your two year old is talking be very careful what he/she hears.

If you can get yourself on an even emotional level that does not involve strong feelings of anger, hatred, betrayal or disappointment, the better. YOu'll need your head to think straight to put things in place so you don't want your decisions to be driven by feelings of revenge etc.,

I stayed as long as I did for the exact same fear you have, leaving him alone with our young child. So, I managed the situation as best I could. I read heaps! And read more heaps. Patricia Evans books are good, as is Lundy Bancroft. Depending on your bloke though you may not be able to leave them lying around.

Get some trusted friends to help you, but make sure they won't skip to the other camp at crunch time. I made sure my friends were mine, we never had mutual friends. He never had any friends.

All in all, my plan took 12 months to execute. Including sending my N to Men's Intervention Programme. But in the end, nothing helped. BTW, I advise against marriage counselling, it could make him worse, and the more you reveal in counselling the more ammunition he will use against you and your kids.

I acquired Separation under the Main Roof status to acquire Social Security Payments. I also hid money he did not know in other bank accounts. Get a PO Box if need be. Be mindful of your emails, phone calls and other stuff being tapped. Don't let on that you plan to leave, do not threaten it even. Just slowly remove yourself from him emotionally. Remove your name from joint credit cards - invent some reason. Have the utilities changed to his name - again invent reasons. Get your own credit card without his knowledge, if you can.

Seek out a social worker who can help you with everything available in the community for you.

For instance, the Housing Trust paid my bond on my rental property and my first 2 weeks rent. Centrelink were paying me Supporting Parent Benefit plus Rent Assistance, and I got Families SA to pay $300 towards my moving expenses and they also gave me $100 food voucher. Very handy. I totally set up my house with utilities and new furniture 6 weeks before I did the cloak and dagger move. If I had to delay the move, it would not have mattered financially, as the Centrelink Payments covered the rent etc., So I set it all up without dipping into my savings I'd put aside for 12 months.

I made sure he was gone to work, and the removalists came in, 2 friends and family helped with kitchen, bathroom and bedroom stuff and within 2 hours we were outta there with all my stuff on a truck. Brilliant! Then I sent the long awaited email to his work saying that me and Little S had found somewhere else to live, and given his attitude and behaviour, I knew this pleased him!

All I can say, is it was worth it. But I could not have done it without the network of friends and community members. And lots of reading.

But in the end, his intolerable behaviour towards her spurred my move, he wasn't really changing. Since December 13th, he's seen her 4 times, each time supervised (because he did some threatening of his group facilitators which led me to believe he had a plan). We meet in public places (Burger King and Playgroup ground for Christmas Day and the local outdoor Swim Centre twice).

He's refused unsupervised access to her at this stage. I'm letting him do all the work with his solicitors etc., and I only communicate with him through email. Making sure I document the move because of his treatment of Little S, I keep other emotional stuff out of it. The whole move is all about HER well-being.

In our country the courts aim for 50/50 shared care, I want supervised and that is what I'll push for. If I lose, well, I tried my best, but hopefully I can stall him long enough and make it awkward enough for him that he'll give up - he's a lazy sod at the end of the day, and me and our child really only ever got in his way.

Good luck to you, and let us know how you go.

Cheers
Lynn

Hi guys thanks for the advice. I am going to heed every warning you gave me and start instituting a plan. I have a question. Was your husband really good with your daughter at first or was their always problems. My husband seems to live for my son right now, that is partly why I'm concerned about his actions during a divorce. I know he'll fight for full custody probably sighting some ridiculous made up story. He would never get custody though. I am definitely preparing for that. I can't thank you enough. It's good to know that others have dealt with what I have, and finally achieved a better life.

jenny8 wrote:Was your husband really good with your daughter at first or was their always problems. My husband seems to live for my son right now, that is partly why I'm concerned about his actions during a divorce.

The operative word is "seems" to live for your son. He's acting. He knows what's expected of him. Don't fall for it. Stop giving him the benefit of the doubt.

My partner (I never married him) expressed an intense desire to have a family. He cried with joy when I fell pregnant with my second child (our first died in-utero at 20 weeks). The neglect started at about 3 weeks after her birth. He did not do one bit of positive parenting until I was at the 'commanding' stage with him and she was 3.5 years old. She's now 4.25 (yes don't forget those fractions, very important to the kiddies... ) and his interactions with her improved somewhat, but it became quite obvious that 20 mins was his time to reach critical mass.

Throughout her childhood his priorities are checking his emails, sleeping, sulking, napping, and watching TV and he has control battles with her over the space on the couch.

Your husband has latched onto the divide and conquer dynamic of your blended family. It's very likely he's not developing a relationship with his youngest with a view to having an emotionally healthy and fulfilling relationship with him in the future. His motivation will be that he sees how important your son is to you and he will use the child as a tool to get at you for anything that may happen in the future. This is the way of the Narc, or any other controlling man. Fulfilling relationships are not on their agenda, so you have to think like they do and realise they have many agendas, skewed towards their self-centred selves.

Take care and be wary. Always wary and suspicious, it's your best strategy for your future.

jenny8 wrote:Hi I recently realized that my husband has NPD. He is undiagnosed yet fits the bill completely. Our marriage has been horrible for me. This is the problem. We have a two year old together. He seems to be generally a good father. The only thing is that he tries to instill all his interests and beliefs in him in an extreme degree. He also won't take any advice on care of him, actually, will do the opposite many times. I have two children from a previous marriage that he treats with indifference. He doesn't even acknowledge their prescence. He only points out their faults or something he thinks is 'bad behavior' to me. And gets very angry since he views everything including them having friends over is a problem for him. They don't do enough, their friends are untrustworthy, and etc. I'm concerned about getting a divorce since he is very vindictive. I owned my house before we got married and he won't leave. Furthermore, I'm concerned about my two year old since if I divorce him I won't be able to keep an eye on the treatment and stuff he tries to instill during his visitation. Should I stay for the sake of my two year old or should I leave for the sake of my two other children and myself. My children are teenagers.
If I stay how do I suggest treatment and diagnosis. He couldn't even stay in marriage counciling for two months and basically thought the therapist was making things worse. Please help Is there a possibility that he will turn on his own son when at this point he seems to be the only thing that matters to him?

I stayed for 30 years. We have two sons together, now aged 17 and 24. My ex (an undiagnosed NPD) damaged both our sons emotionally with his biased parenting.

I call it biased for a reason - everything was about him, not his sons.

If I had it to do over again, I would have left after the birth of our first son, when it became clear he had little interest in being his father.

I'll take you briefly through what it was like for me trying to raise two sons with a narc.

The births: Curiously to me (before I knew about narcissism), when each son was born he said the very same thing -"I want them to grow up and be proud of me". It makes sense now, in the context that everything has to be about the narc.

Infancy: Son 1 was a disappointment to him from the first - quiet, looked like me, bonded with me mostly because my ex travelled a lot and wasn't around much or when he was, was totally into his career. Son 2 arrived seven years later, after my ex pleaded to have another child. Son 2 was the "chosen" one, right from the beginning. More outgoing, looked like his father. From the first my ex bragged about everything Son 2 did. But it wasn't love, it was the "mirror" illusion because he believed that Son 2 would be smart, handsome, talented, charismatic - and as his son the credit for that would flow to him. It was almost as if he never saw Son 2 as an individual, rather as a younger version of himself.

School years: I did all the work. End of story. He travelled, concentrated on his career, even took off for a year to live on his own and work in another city (until he got fired and had to come back). When he was around, he constantly criticised Son 1, who was somewhat introverted and loved reading and learning. Son 1 began to withdraw into himself.

Son 2 soon learned how to divide and conquer. My ex began to play the game of "you and me against HER". Son 2 would run to Daddy when he came home, and knew how to get his attention. He would say- example "Do you know what SHE did today. SHE spent money on...." (My ex was extremely controlling financially and this would always get his attention).

He didn't want to be "father" to either Son. When he related, he wanted to be their best friend, on his terms. For instance, he would sometimes start an interaction with Son 2, where he would first give him a little playful punch, then goad him into some play boxing. Until one day Son 2 was not in the mood and landed a punch back that was a little more serious (but not harmful).

My ex went into a full rage, got his face right up close to Son 2's, spit flying from his mouth, screaming "Are you insane? You could have hurt me! What's WRONG with you? You're an idiot!" Etc.

Son 2, in tears, came to me later to try and make sense of it. All I could tell him was that in future if his father tried to engage in any play-fighting he was to gently but firmly tell him "no" and turn away, as this was likely to happen again.

On the other hand, my ex would give in to Son 2's demands and buy him inappropriate gifts, and praise him openly while ignoring Son 1.

Teenage years: Real trouble. The seeds that had been planted grew. Son 2 began hanging with a bad crowd, binge drinking at the age of 13. I tried tough love, my ex would not support me. He blamed me. He said my son's behaviour was my fault as I "provoked" him and should just leave him alone to grow out of it.

Son 2 took his anger out at me, threatened me physically. I intercepted his MSN chat where he said to friends that he wanted to actually hurt me physically. He also told his friends that his Dad was okay, because he could manipulate his Dad into giving him whatever he wanted. Smart kid. Dangerous situation for me.

I got both of them to a family counsellor because Son 2 decided, age 13, he was old enough to go into a dangerous part of the city with some friends and stay out all night. Counselling session ended when Son 2 stood up, physically positioned himself between myself and my ex and said to his father "Are you going to let HER tell you what to do?" The look on the counsellor's face was one of absolute disbelief, then pity as she just shook her head at me. My ex then answered meekly "Well, if all your other friends are doing it, I suppose there is nothing wrong with it."

Son 1 became more withdrawn, seemed to have few friends. His father taunted him that he "can't get a girlfriend" and that all he does is sit in his room and "play bang-bang games on his computer." Meanwhile Dad spends up to 4 hours every night, and all weekend, watching TV or pornography.

I am effectively, a single mother only worse, because when he is around, he knee-caps me when I try to enforce some discipline.

The Divorce: The marriage had been over for years, I had grieved, I had decided, I took action. Son 1 was 22, Son 2 was 16. I had been through hell and back with Son 2, who was still acting out. I believed that things would be better without a narc father. I was right.

However, my ex fought an early battle to take Son 2 with him. He planned to rent a downtown apartment, move his extensive liquor cabinet with him, and party hard. Son 2 was going to be his friend, and they would hunt "chicks" together. Sick and twisted? Absolutely. I managed to get my ex to a counsellor on the pretext that he needed some assistance to cope with the divorce (which I knew wouldn't help, but I was fighting to save Son 2 from any more narc damage). The counsellor must have been very good as he managed to persuade my ex that this was a bad situation for both of them and that Son 2 must stay at home, in his own surroundings.

Post-Divorce: Nearly two years later, recovery. Son 1 is a different person. He still lives at home but has re-balanced his life. He has a social life, talks to me more about his friends, is about to graduate from law school and making optomistic plans for his future. He has a job already lined up. He can express his opinions freely without being shot down by his father. I like the man he has become. In many ways he has stepped in to become a surrogate father to his younger brother, and their relationship is working well. He has also legally changed his last name (to my maiden name), which was his own idea and which seems to help him psychologically break free from his controlling father.

Son 2 was bitter towards me for the first year for "kicking out" his father. What he was really bitter about was that he realised that it was now my house, my authority, and my rules were not in dispute. At first he spent the occasional weekend with his father, but his father soon cut him out of his life. Once Son 2 was in the city and thought he would drop in unannounced on his father. His father opened the door but would not let him into the apartment - told him that he had some friends over and it wasn't a good time.

My ex left the country six months ago. I call him "email Dad". We can only reach him by email. I wouldn't tell my sons this, but I am so happy he is gone and hope he never returns. When he is around, he toxifies everything.

Son 2 graduated high school and has a part-time job. He is proud of himself for earning his own spending money. Things are still rocky between us, but less so. I can see light at the end of the tunnel.

I worried that Son 2 might also be a narc, but as time goes on, I see signs that he shows empathy. He still mimics a lot of his father's words and some behaviours. But he is young, and Son 1 and myself are working together to give him guidance. We also have some pets in the house for the first time, which was forbidden by my ex. This has helped Son 2 grow out of his anger as he is able to show affection to the pets.

I have hope for the future. But only because I got out.

Sorry to go on for so long, but I thought you might be interested in the experience of someone who stayed too long. Every person's situation is unique and when there are children involved, it complicates things enormously. Good luck with whatever you decide but be warned that narcs only get worse as they age, and once their children start to show their own personalities and stand up to their narc parents, the situation can become much worse, even violent.

I did all the work and parenting - full stop.

Narcs do not see their children as separate individuals that need nurturing, managing and guiding in their life.

The closest thing I can call it is that they are like a sibling. A jealous sibling jostling for attention and the rivalry that goes with it is age inappropriate. The second closest way of explaining it is that their children are trophies, worthy of being shown off, but not worthy of their time and attention. All that in just over 4 years of observations.!

I would think that raising 2 sons with a Narc would be close to hell on earth. The control, the blaming and shaming, the lifting up only to cut them back down, the competitiveness (because all relationships to a Narc are about competition, not love) and the constant guilt trips. All unbearable to be witness to, some of it can be counterbalanced but not all, and all of it is damaging to the growing child.

Nanday, you have my greatest admiration and sympathies for all you have been through and achieved despite the odds.

jenny8 wrote:Should I stay or should I go?

Tell me quando, quando, quando?

I think I need to talk him into counciling somehow. He needs to at least get diagnosed before i can make any decisions. Any ideas?
I wonder if I can talk him into a therapist in order to "handle all the stress he has to deal with". Has anybody achieved this?