The true cost of being narcissistic supply

I have just finished reading "Emotional Vampires: Dealing with People Who Drain You Dry" (Albert J. Bernstein, Ph.D). I recommend this book for its insights and humour, not just on N's but on other emotional manipulators.

The book resonated with me because it helped me recognize the true cost to me of being NS to my N for 30 years. It wasn't the emotional wounds, because I am well into the healing process and know that I can forgive and move on.

The true cost to me was that in order to survive with him, I became like him. I am working daily to throw off the selfishness, cynicism and lack of emotional connection to the larger community that living with an N can lead to. I do this by trying to do an act of kindness, however small, every day without expecting anything in return. I am also giving to charities, which is something my N refused to do as he saw recipients of charities as weak individuals who couldn't make their own way in life and therefore deserved what they got.

To quote Dr. Bernstein:
"If you want to be successful...you have to compete in their league and play by their rules. If you do, however, there is a very real danger that you will become like them.... Don't enter their world unless you know how to get out. Many have been lost."

"selfishness, cynicism and lack of emotional connection to the larger community"

Selfishness? Everyone is selfish, some people are more aware of it than others.

Cynicism? As opposed to idealism? Cynicism is a good trait to have.

Lack of emotional connection to the larger community? I need you to explain what this one is, and why it is bad. Give examples and counter examples.

I'm just thinking about my wife here, because I definitely do influence her to be more selfish (she is intelligent and thus cynical already, not as cynical as I, but cynical nonetheless. I haven't been making her any more cynical, though). I do this actively though, because she is too selfless sometimes. She needs to be a little more calculative and ruthless in self-reward. Nobody else rewards you in this world, you have to take what you deserve. What you deserve is what you can take.

I quote Dr. Bernstein again, not because I can't explain, but because I know that in responding to an N, my opinion is worthless but that of someone with "PhD" after their name has some small weight.

According to the author, there are three requirements for mental health - "Perception of control, pursuit of challenge, and feeling connected to something larger than yourself." N's succeed at the first two, but "their great deficiency is that they live in a miniature universe no larger than their own desires."

To those of us who are not N's, we aspire to be part of this larger universe. It leads us to something I call my personal state of peacefulness . N's will probably never experience this, nor even want to. I have but cannot explain it to an N, because it is a feeling, not a thought.

I leave you with two things to consider: firstly, if you love your wife, why would you want to influence or change her? This implies she is deficient in some way and must be improved. If she seeks self-improvement on her own, well-done. If however, she is getting pressured to self-improve to someone else's standards, this will cause conflict and unhappiness in her. Trust me on this one, I had 30 years of this kind of pressure. My happiness and general health have improved immeasurably now that the pressure to be what my N demanded of me is gone.

The second is something that I have framed and placed where I see it daily. It will undoubtedly cause N's to double over in laughter, but perhaps for others it will resonate with meaning:

RECEIVE YE WELCOME (In a Quaker home, author unknown)

Let the guest sojourning here know that in this home our life is simple. What we cannot afford we do not offer, but what good cheer we can give...we give gladly.

We make no strife for appearance sake.

Know also, friend, that we live a life of labour, therefore, if at times we separate ourselves from thee, do ye occupy thyself accordingly to thine heart's desire.

We will not defer to thee in opinion or ask thee to defer to us. What thou thinketh ye shall say, if ye wish, without giving offense. What we think, we also say, believing that truth hath many aspects, and that love is large enough to encompass them all.

So, whille ye tarry here with us we would have thee enjoy the blessing of a home, health, love and freedom, and we pray that thou mayst find the final blessing of life.

PEACE.

digital.noface wrote:I'm just thinking about my wife here, because I definitely do influence her to be more selfish (she is intelligent and thus cynical already, not as cynical as I, but cynical nonetheless. I haven't been making her any more cynical, though). I do this actively though, because she is too selfless sometimes. She needs to be a little more calculative and ruthless in self-reward. Nobody else rewards you in this world, you have to take what you deserve. What you deserve is what you can take.

Digi, I agree with Nanday on this one. You need to be very wary of your long term effects if you think you need to impose your standard of selfishness on to your wife. Actively doing this is, eventually, going to come back and bite you on the bum. In the long term, as she matures she is most definately not going to appreciate what you have done. It would be very beneficial for you to accept your wife for what she is, you can of course, tell her what you're thoughts are on her selflessness in a non-judgemental way but it is up to her whether she takes your standard on board or not. If you aren't truly accepting your wife for what she is then it's possible you have married your fantasy of a wife and not recognising the woman that she is, perceived faults and all, and being married to your fantasy (or image) does not bode well for the long term.

Let your wife be as selfless as she wishes to be, and if it all comes crashing in around her then you should be the soft place for her to fall. It's not up to you to purposely 'influence' her so that she can be as selfish as you. There is a difference between guiding someone without judgement if they don't follow and imposing your values on someone else. The latter is not good in an intimate relationship.

And yep, sometimes we do have to make a stand and take what we believe we rightfully deserve (like insisting on a pay-rise, or a company car, or an A instead of a B in an exam grade), and then there are some things (usually intangible like friendship, joy, happiness, self-fulfillment) that are not ours for the taking for if we have to take it, we didn't deserve it in the first place.

Nanday wrote:I quote Dr. Bernstein again, not because I can't explain, but because I know that in responding to an N, my opinion is worthless but that of someone with "PhD" after their name has some small weight.

Heh, ok.

According to the author, there are three requirements for mental health - "Perception of control, pursuit of challenge, and feeling connected to something larger than yourself." N's succeed at the first two, but "their great deficiency is that they live in a miniature universe no larger than their own desires."

To those of us who are not N's, we aspire to be part of this larger universe. It leads us to something I call my personal state of peacefulness . N's will probably never experience this, nor even want to. I have but cannot explain it to an N, because it is a feeling, not a thought.

This is intriguing. I haven't heard of this angle on Ns thus far. Food for thought...

I leave you with two things to consider: firstly, if you love your wife, why would you want to influence or change her?

It's not a matter of wanting to or not, the natural result of living with someone so intimately is to leave you imprint on them, and they on you. I can definitely say she has changed me a whole lot than I have influenced her. Also, this change wasn't particularly deliberate. It is just the way of things.

This implies she is deficient in some way and must be improved. If she seeks self-improvement on her own, well-done. If however, she is getting pressured to self-improve to someone else's standards, this will cause conflict and unhappiness in her. Trust me on this one, I had 30 years of this kind of pressure. My happiness and general health have improved immeasurably now that the pressure to be what my N demanded of me is gone.

Yeah, there's no pressure. The main reason I followed up was because I was concerned for what effects I could unwittingly be having on her. This connectivity is something I'll have to mull over.

The second is something that I have framed and placed where I see it daily. It will undoubtedly cause N's to double over in laughter, but perhaps for others it will resonate with meaning:

RECEIVE YE WELCOME (In a Quaker home, author unknown)

Let the guest sojourning here know that in this home our life is simple. What we cannot afford we do not offer, but what good cheer we can give...we give gladly.

We make no strife for appearance sake.

Know also, friend, that we live a life of labour, therefore, if at times we separate ourselves from thee, do ye occupy thyself accordingly to thine heart's desire.

We will not defer to thee in opinion or ask thee to defer to us. What thou thinketh ye shall say, if ye wish, without giving offense. What we think, we also say, believing that truth hath many aspects, and that love is large enough to encompass them all.

So, whille ye tarry here with us we would have thee enjoy the blessing of a home, health, love and freedom, and we pray that thou mayst find the final blessing of life.

PEACE.

A mini doctrine on mutual respect. Seems a lot like most of the kinds of things people hang around in their homes.

Nanday, I have ordered that book from my library, it will be in in about 1 - 2 days.

shivers wrote:Digi, I agree with Nanday on this one. You need to be very wary of your long term effects if you think you need to impose your standard of selfishness on to your wife.

No no, there is no imposition. It's more like I encourage her to assert herself in her workplace where she traditionally gets taken advantage of and pushed around. She is raised on the 'work hard and be honest' ethic (among other things), I praise her for that (as a value I don't have) but encourage her to also look out for herself some more.

Actively doing this is, eventually, going to come back and bite you on the bum. In the long term, as she matures she is most definately not going to appreciate what you have done. It would be very beneficial for you to accept your wife for what she is, you can of course, tell her what you're thoughts are on her selflessness in a non-judgemental way but it is up to her whether she takes your standard on board or not.

Obviously. It's not about 'fixing' her, she is just perfect. Too perfect, in fact, in that she is a little prone to having her industrious ethic taken advantage of.

If you aren't truly accepting your wife for what she is then it's possible you have married your fantasy of a wife and not recognising the woman that she is, perceived faults and all, and being married to your fantasy (or image) does not bode well for the long term.

This is not the case.

Let your wife be as selfless as she wishes to be,

and I do

and if it all comes crashing in around her then you should be the soft place for her to fall.

and I am.

It's not up to you to purposely 'influence' her so that she can be as selfish as you.

I never said I did that, I specifically meant that I 'have' an influence on her. One that I am concerned about- not for any negative reasons, but rather out of a simple concern for her in general.

There is a difference between guiding someone without judgement if they don't follow and imposing your values on someone else. The latter is not good in an intimate relationship.

I don't lay judgment on her. It's the last thing she needs, and in my mind she is wonderful as she is. The only time I willingly encourage change in her is to build her up to stand up for herself at work, and this is not out of a desire to improve her, but rather out of a concern to protect her.

And yep, sometimes we do have to make a stand and take what we believe we rightfully deserve (like insisting on a pay-rise, or a company car, or an A instead of a B in an exam grade), and then there are some things (usually intangible like friendship, joy, happiness, self-fulfillment) that are not ours for the taking for if we have to take it, we didn't deserve it in the first place.

Totally misinterpreted. I purely meant selfishness in the ambitious sense. Selfishness in the emotional sense isn't even real selfishness, as you hardly serve yourself destroying the relationships with those you love, and certainly don't receive what you want should you try to take it.

All that sounds good Digi, your original post sounded like you were purposely trying to change her. You're right about couples influencing each other, simply by the fact that they do spend a lot of time together, as long as they are enhancing each other, then it's a good match.

"as you hardly serve yourself destroying the relationships with those you love"

This is very common with narcissists, it's not until later in life they realise they may have had a part in destroying their relationships, and even then it's rare for them to continue to find out if they have.

shivers wrote:All that sounds good Digi, your original post sounded like you were purposely trying to change her. You're right about couples influencing each other, simply by the fact that they do spend a lot of time together, as long as they are enhancing each other, then it's a good match.

One funny thing I noticed with the time we spent apart during the visa struggles was after only one year apart, she came back quite a different girl. Just developing independently under different influences. It was a little odd, in an endearing way. She'd been spending a lot of time with a large group of friends her age, something she usually doesn't do (being something of an introvert), and she came back all 'party girlish'. It was cute, but also valuable to some degree. In my mind it is this independent development granted by 'apart time' than keeps the relationship fresh. I would even think of occasionally taking separate holidays from time to time (say she goes to location X and I to Z, for a couple of weeks).

"as you hardly serve yourself destroying the relationships with those you love"

This is very common with narcissists, it's not until later in life they realise they may have had a part in destroying their relationships, and even then it's rare for them to continue to find out if they have.

It's the classic narcissistic hypocrisy which they will put out their own eyes to avoid staring at. They like to view themselves as being superior, efficient, and supremely rational in pursuing and attaining their goals. In some regards they are, they focus on these. However Narcissists are actually quite self-defeating in other regards, not just limited to emotional satisfaction (which they can try to palm off as 'weak' or 'unimportant'), but also in motivation. But In many ways narcissism isn't really about superiority at all. It is about self-doubt. Superiority is merely the dominating symptom.

To quote kane, to doubt and to fear hell is as a narcissist doubts and fears inferiority. In terms of the metaphor, it isn't about atheism, it is about a lack of confidence therein.

The world already has enough self important/selfish pricks in it. Why should we want to make more converts?