idolize or accept reality?

i have a question. sometime one has idealised vision of someone. for instance a parent.
it's good to idolize because one can feel quiet inside.
Do you think it's important to see reality? to be aware of how they are? or to quietly keep that sort of delusion.

I think i have my answer. Being things of the past, it doesn't matter so much for me.

If you have doubts about the person you're idolizing, then you should explore them. Delusions are rarely good (or never?) for us. It's easier to stay with them maybe, lazier, but "better," no. It takes courage to explore them, and it does feel scary. Sometimes what we see will totally rock our world for sure, which feels terrifying. But if we just hang on and go with it, in the end everything gets better. Or at least that's how it has been for me. My worst example of this toppled me into a full year of cataclysmic change, but I came out on the other side SO MUCH STRONGER. It was absolutely worth it. And it all started with one small lifetime delusion about my mother that suddenly got shattered.

-- Thu May 20, 2021 5:58 am --

If you have doubts about the person you're idolizing, then you should explore them. Delusions are rarely good (or never?) for us. It's easier to stay with them maybe, lazier, but "better," no. It takes courage to explore them, and it does feel scary. Sometimes what we see will totally rock our world for sure, which feels terrifying. But if we just hang on and go with it, in the end everything gets better. Or at least that's how it has been for me. My worst example of this toppled me into a full year of cataclysmic change, but I came out on the other side SO MUCH STRONGER. It was absolutely worth it. And it all started with one small lifetime delusion about my mother that suddenly got shattered.

Thank you pajaro.

I don't know how much i idolize. I think i need to keep something good from them, inside myself.

There was sort of earthquake some years ago and i needed much help from several people.

I was confronted again with past.

I think now most important for me is sort of freedom. Own freedom

If the path leads to more awareness and freedom, reducing fake, guilt and internal tension it's good for me.

If it's entering other's lives in a way i had succeeded in avoiding till now, maybe i'd better go for a walk and enjoy sun or rain.

For the time being i think i need to rest from those people anyway.

i'm not sure the post is clear. i'm sort of joining thoughts.

I think it depends what it does to you. Having idols can be a good thing, when they're people you look up to, when they have positive qualities you want to grow to have yourself - I guess having a personal ideal somewhere to work towards can be a good anchor point for a lot of people.
Idealization on the other hand side can often just be a way to ignore everything negative and it doesnt really lead to you wanting to actually become a more mature / better / healthier etc person, but to put everything negative about the other person (and probably yourself) out of the picture.

"and probably yourself" ... you mean that through idealizing the person i might idealize myself?

So accepting more complex reality with that person could lead to accepting more complex reality in myself

and might help me find that freedom i'm looking for, instead in trying to be good all the time.

Philonoe wrote:"and probably yourself" ... you mean that through idealizing the person i might idealize myself?

So accepting more complex reality with that person could lead to accepting more complex reality in myself

and might help me find that freedom i'm looking for, instead in trying to be good all the time.

Im not sure about the cause-effect situation in your case, but I think its the other way around. Through maturing and growing as a person we becoem more open to the different aspects of both ourselves and the outside world, including other people. Something like idealization has the secondary gain that one doesn't have to face negative sides at all. So you dont have to worry, dont have to be anxious, dont have to be angry etc because your object is perfect and can't cause any of those associations or affects to arise; indirectly - by freeing you from having to perceive all those other aspects of your inner world (and the person) - youre then facing a very onesided version of yourself, too, which might seem perfect. So in that regard as a defense its very effective and thats what I would think also sets it apart strongly from idolizing somebody as an ideal, forming an aspiration to grow all the positive features one sees in the other person in oneself - as that requires one to be aware of what is missing. I think the ability to do that and ultimately to not fall into that need to idealize somebody / to split reality, is a result of personal development though and more an effect than a cause. But I dont know, it might be possible to work on the object-side, too? I guess you have to find out which one works better for you or what you think will work better in the long run.

The person idealizing idealizes their own feelings through the idol.
It does not imply a personal perfection in everything, but it does give cover for a lot of desires and feelings of all sorts. Like a free for all feel which may become toxic pretty fast.

That's what I see in people that do this.

Akuma wrote:Something like idealization has the secondary gain that one doesn't have to face negative sides at all. So you dont have to worry, dont have to be anxious, dont have to be angry etc because your object is perfect and can't cause any of those associations or affects to arise; indirectly - by freeing you from having to perceive all those other aspects of your inner world (and the person) - youre then facing a very onesided version of yourself, too, which might seem perfect.

Thank you for your comment, Akuma.

I think that sometimes - say for instance with a parent - idealisation can put some pressure on oneself.
I remember having read a book where the author perceived sort of relief, learning that the (distant) parent wasn't the perfect person he imagined.

In case of distant parent (be dead, traveling, distant, busy, emotionally unavailable etc.),i think a child has no other choice then idealizing. Positively or negatively.

In my case, i think i need to feel something good towards that person.

Some people around me talked very negatively, describing that person as evil.

Because of some anecdote, i was somehow confused.

I think i need to keep some sort of bubble with good image.

Maybe it's a bit exaggerate. Some years ago, someone who i knew very long time ago and didn't like, contacted me and offered to talk of the past. I didn't answer. Because i didn't like them. And an other reason was that i didn't want to break that bubble.

-- Sat Jun 05, 2021 12:10 pm --

1PolarBear wrote:The person idealizing idealizes their own feelings through the idol.
It does not imply a personal perfection in everything, but it does give cover for a lot of desires and feelings of all sorts. Like a free for all feel which may become toxic pretty fast.

That's what I see in people that do this.

I didn't understand that comment.

Well, it's not about a known public person in my case. Can you explain what becomes toxic?

^
It was more a comment on Akuma's idea that idealizing idealizes yourself.
I saw a lot of people idealizing, but it does not imply a personal perfection, and sometimes quite the opposite. It can be that you are so below the person idealized, that your imperfection is almost swept away because its for the cause, or for some altruism.

Let's take a few examples. Sick children, they are usually idealized. So sports players will visit sick children, in order to show they are caring people, but it does not imply they are perfect, but when they do something wrong, like send another player in the hospital, then they can justify their existence by saying the visit sick children, so they aren't all that bad. Who else will visit them?

Or plenty of people idealize Jesus, who they think is perfection, so they are nothing in comparison, but then again, others are also nothing. So then they go on abusing children and tell them that Jesus would be nice and would not defend himself. The person will admit readily being a sinner, but somehow they think they should get a pass, because they worship the right person.

Toxic is all the bad stuff you impose on people and in this case, it is made worst, because it is not owned, it is blamed on the idol. So the person feels justified, because it is seemingly altruistic, and the victim cannot fight back either, because it would mean fighting the idol, and if they do, things just escalate because the idol is sacred and cannot be touched. So it is toxic, there is no resolution ever possible and it is bad for at least one of the parties, usually both.

People still fall for it though, they never learn. The whole schtick is pretty obvious though, but people only see it when they don't believe in the idol, but don't question the need and usefulness to have some in the first place. They just want it to be the right one, the one that their feelings want, the one they emote about. That one they will fall for it, and become toxic and allow other like minded worshippers around that are also toxic. So then the will fight each others through the idol. And if it is a person that is idealized, then they will simply abuse the authority, because it is beyond reproach, up to a point of course.

Politics is the same. People idealize their party, which gives them cover for whatever bad stuff they want to do. It does not make them perfect, just a conduit for their emotions to be carried through the idol.

Same with ideas, "values". Climate change for example. People will use it to tell people what to do, what to eat, what to wear, what to consume, where to work, etc. Not because they are perfect themselves, most aren't and are oftentimes worst than the people they accuse, but it gives them cover for every little emotion they have and want to impose on others.

If it is someone you know, their perfection may be used to do all kinds of things in the same way. You are just following orders. That is the defense the nazis had. Or it could play out in other different ways, but the idealized person is seen as a sacred object. It cannot be changed, so others have to change and be forced to change in the name of the idol.

Parents can be seen like that of course. If they are idealized, children will fight through them. If one does not worship the parent, it becomes the black sheep of the family, not part of the play. It's a bit of a natural human behavior and most parents probably want it that way, because it gives them more power, but it changes when children grow up, or should. Then they start worshipping something else, or worst, someone else. It's why their is adolescent crisis, the children learn the parents are not all knowing, and all wise, and in fact are quite lacking. It creates narcissistic rage, because the reality is confronting the delusion. So there you have the answer to your question. Reality always win, and whatever quiet you think you may get from idealizing, not only it will be confronted by reality, but you will use it to abuse people and be abused in that same way.