Alternatives to Guilt

As a primary emotion, anger serves to motivate you to enforce and protect your own percieved boundaries and to protect what's yours, possibly including the boundaries of those close to you

As a secondary and tertiary emotion, it would be to cover up the primary emotion by "distracting" from it and tangling it all up so you don't have to feel it as you mentioned.

You can also feel different ones at the same time.

As a primary emotion, it can be a great asset if utilized correctly because channeling anger works well as a fuel for a variety of things that take a lot of energy, courage, passion, etc.

Aggression would work as a "gear down" for this

The issue for both might be in the expression / use of them and harnessing them

I've already said my disordered language is going from "0 to 100," and I'm not above lowering my standards of behavior at times.

I've also mentioned that in extremely frustrating online discussion groups elsewhere, my "0 to 100" is much more frequent than here.
Because people tend to be softer in those places (as opposed to these forums), I also find myself trying to make amends much more frequently than I should.
I'm not practiced at handling certain types of interactions, so I imagine that will improve in time

That being said, it is learnt behavior and I acquired it because I observed it to be effective in others and I found it effective at times myself

Context is important too because in real-life, where I'm accustomed to the interactions I'm likely to encounter, my "normal" state is feel laid back "happy go lucky" and it has been for a number of years now.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:Because this can be relatively common for me, I've gotten lost as to whether we're speaking in generalities or of a particular scenario.

Were you not illustrating the generalities with a particular scenario, lol?

So far, I find it to be better to just allow people to believe what they want to about me and ignore it because I've never gotten a lot of results when trying to clarify - it's not worth draining my energy.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong though.

What happens when you try to clarify?

I found that whether I clarify or not, I get in trouble if people are intent on misunderstanding. That is why I find sparing your energy wiser, but being outspoken, I have not gotten the full hang of it yet.

On the topic of anger, I trust feelings as signals (in the past, I made the mistake to confuse them with facts), but I don't necessarily trust the expression of anger itself. I do get angry and I have trouble finding a single instance where the expression of anger helped my argument...

DaturaInnoxia wrote: I'm not a fan of utilizing guilt myself which was my point in using 12-Step as my preferred method to address change.

Also could you please elaborate on this?

ViniStonemoss wrote:

DaturaInnoxia wrote:Because this can be relatively common for me, I've gotten lost as to whether we're speaking in generalities or of a particular scenario.

Were you not illustrating the generalities with a particular scenario, lol?

I think I took myself down a rabbit hole

ViniStonemoss wrote:

DaturaInnoxia wrote:So far, I find it to be better to just allow people to believe what they want to about me and ignore it because I've never gotten a lot of results when trying to clarify - it's not worth draining my energy.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong though.

What happens when you try to clarify?

I found that whether I clarify or not, I get in trouble if people are intent on misunderstanding. That is why I find sparing your energy wiser, but being outspoken, I have not gotten the full hang of it yet.

^
This.
When people are committed to their misinterpretations, they seem to become more insistent in clinging to them when I try to clarify.
Either that, or my attempts at doing so becomes evidence of my "guilt"
I find that the truth usually comes out eventually -  sometimes just a little too late.
Let me know if you discover any tips for being outspoken in these types situations that are effective. Lol.

ViniStonemoss wrote:On the topic of anger, I trust feelings as signals (in the past, I made the mistake to confuse them with facts), I do get angry and I have trouble finding a single instance where the expression of anger helped my argument...

How do you mean by "I don't necessarily trust the expression of anger itself"?

ViniStonemoss wrote:

DaturaInnoxia wrote: I'm not a fan of utilizing guilt myself which was my point in using 12-Step as my preferred method to address change.

Also could you please elaborate on this?

I have a lot of thoughts, opinions, observations and experiences on this topic, so I need to get back to you once I filter out what's relevant and what's not + narrow down

ViniStonemoss wrote:

DaturaInnoxia wrote: I'm not a fan of utilizing guilt myself which was my point in using 12-Step as my preferred method to address change.

Also could you please elaborate on this?

To avoid antagonizing people on the forum (this topic irritates/triggers a lot of people) and to avoid getting personal on this subforum:

The steps involve working on changing ways of thinking and behaving that make you and others miserable as well as making amends and practicing other spiritual principles.
* It leads to a dramatically improved quality of life, that is, if you work with someone who knows how it's supposed to be done (as outlined in literature = not personal interpretations) + if you actually do the work (which most people don't).
I'm not going to pretend I do a great job of any of this anymore.

The idea is that working the 12-Steps on an ongoing basis keeps one clear of the desire to use and keeps unmanageability of life on life's terms at bay, or more likely, decreases it as you continue to keep yourself sorted out.
You grow accustomed to a (non-linear) improved quality of life as well as the freedom of not having to battle with the desire to use, so you do what it takes to keep it

People don't need guilt or empathy to correct their behaviors because corrective measures are necessary to protect their recovery.
Same with helping others.
It's just following the formula to maintain your recovery and quality of life / freedom.
The AA book describes it as using the steps to keep yourself in line. Moreover, NA incorporated the concept that "spiritual principles" can be your higher power for people who aren't open to any other type of thing.

Another thing it can do is make you listen to yourself more so your behavior is guided by smaller twinges instead of having to face the kind of guilt or consequences that come from the after effects of more serious behaviors.

Too much guilt can paralyze and drown people, or harden into indifference, making them not able to utilize it. People often mistake the latter (the indifference) as there being a need to increase sensitization, but oddly enough, I've found it's often the opposite.
^
In those instances, you actually need to bring it down enough for them (without cosigning it obviously) to even be able to face the situation(s) / behavior(s) that they want to address.
It's easier when it's more transactional than emotional.
*Also, if it is to happen, they "thaw out" at their own pace.

-- Sun May 17, 2020 9:41 pm --

DaturaInnoxia wrote:

ViniStonemoss wrote:What happens when you try to clarify?

I found that whether I clarify or not, I get in trouble if people are intent on misunderstanding. That is why I find sparing your energy wiser, but being outspoken, I have not gotten the full hang of it yet.

^
This.
When people are committed to their misinterpretations, they seem to become more insistent in clinging to them when I try to clarify.
Either that, or my attempts at doing so becomes evidence of my "guilt"
I find that the truth usually comes out eventually -  sometimes just a little too late.
Let me know if you discover any tips for being outspoken in these types situations that are effective. Lol.

I forgot to add, that I also don't bother trying to clarify very often because I tend not to believe people to be honest which makes me assume others think the same thing of me so there's no point.

Guilt is emotional self mutilation. It's a way to split oneself into a victim of emotional violence while simultaneously being the tyrant that inflicts it.

It's a way to feel ones own power while feelings its effects immediately also.

People who feel guilty and make ostentanesious displays of it are flexing

"look at the kind of emotional violence I can both dish out AND take"

Squaredonutwheels appeared and wrote:.............
............
.........
......

At the same time, ominous music begins playing in the background as another one has resurrected themselves

Perhaps the foretold apocalypse was real after all, and they'd just misjudged the soldiers...

Squaredonutwheels wrote:Guilt is emotional self mutilation. It's a way to split oneself into a victim of emotional violence while simultaneously being the tyrant that inflicts it.

It's a way to feel ones own power while feelings its effects immediately also.

People who feel guilty and make ostentanesious displays of it are flexing

"look at the kind of emotional violence I can both dish out AND take"

Do you mean that through guilt people get a pleasure from their power (as they are sadistic against themselves), or that their power is used to be the "watchdog" of the other's violent request (because they foresee that they will lose the external power war)?

I mean: is this use of one's own power driven by pleasure, by fear or both?

Datura, thank you for elaborating, I see what you mean, will get back to you soon.

Guilt is just social conditioning.

Punish a kid for being naughty and they'll associate a bad feeling with that behaviour for the rest of their lives. That's your conscience.