Alternatives to Guilt

DaturaInnoxia wrote:Thank you for the input.

You're welcome.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:I've cringed when I've seen people try to use moralizing on youth with RAD to try to push them into guilt or showing empathy.

I'm not sure why people think it's appropriate to try to appeal with "how do you think they/I feel when you do that?" to individuals who never (or rarely) experienced people in positions of power to show respect or regard for them - same with any other talk of "right" and "wrong"

You should ask them.

As I wrote in my previous posts, I despise guilt trips (or excessive appeal to emotion), I despise passive aggression. If I can catch myself resorting to indirect methods of communication, it follows that I can also spot people scanning for weaknesses. Which is what collective rough ups on ASPD/NPD forums, or anywhere else, are about. No judgement there, but it is what it is.

Besides you're not a youth.

Moralization has 2 meanings:
a) indulgence in moral pronouncements
b) the act of making moral (or more moral)
I was referring to the second definition. So there might be a bit of miscommunication there for starters.

ViniStonemoss wrote:You should ask them.

Yes, maybe I should

ViniStonemoss wrote:As I wrote in my previous posts, I despise guilt trips (or excessive appeal to emotion), I despise passive aggression. If I can catch myself resorting to indirect methods of communication, it follows that I can also spot people scanning for weaknesses. Which is what collective rough ups on ASPD/NPD forums, or anywhere else, are about. No judgement there, but it is what it is.

I too have said the same thing of emotional appeal and passive aggression in other posts.

ViniStonemoss wrote:Besides you're not a youth.

I'm not sure what you're intending to say here, but I'll refrain from getting offended.

ViniStonemoss wrote:Moralization has 2 meanings:
a) indulgence in moral pronouncements
b) the act of making moral (or more moral)
I was referring to the second definition. So there might be a bit of miscommunication there for starters.

The definition I was aiming for in my head was to do with making the issue about being "good" versus "bad" or righteousness versus inherent wrongness

Just now, when I looked up "moral" the definition I would have wanted was:

1. concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character


My motive for this post was to collect perspectives rather than asking for advice.
It might have been useful if I'd clarified that as well.



You seem to be a lot different in the way you post - for a long time now.
I don't fully know how to describe.

I find this to be a very weid question bordering on the unfitting for this specific subforum.
First of all I dont understand why you would need emotion as a motivator to change anyways; that implies that you can only change when the fuel of emotion is ready to use, which in the context of guilt would mean you would have to feel guilty a lot, which would mean you would have to continously do stuff to feel guilty for to leverage the emotion that comes with it. Besides how unpractical and cliché BPD that sounds this also opens up the question on how much of a delusion ofcontrol is behind this, as this shows a world-view where emotions are only tools and can be produced willingly to work as such, ergo they are under full control. Change on the other hand side is motivated by insight and needs an internal stability of things like willpower, stress-tolerance, a degree of forward-oriented perspective, as well as an ability to let go of control to a degree.
Secondly guilt and remorse dont exist as much in narcissistic disorders anyways, including SPD and BPD, as these disorders are primarily splitting-based. So the idea brought forth here, that there might be a personality change because of behaviour triggered by feeling seems... problematic... especially since there is no clear idea here which change is wanted concretely. So it sounds more like this change is a red herring for trying to control guilt.
Thirdly, guilt is, if anything, a destructive thing. Guilt is basically the brains automated - and possibly unconscious - self-punishment programmed in by the parents when the human was a kid. I have not seen any examples where punishment motivated any lasting change, especially one based on insight or conviction.
Lastly... to be frank I dont think many people here know what guilt means. We are on the PD forums after all, guilt is not really present as much and people especially with BPD or vulnerable NPD types might think they have lots of guilt or remorse but are probably mixing it up a lot with other stuff. Like when people say they are depressed or have depression when in fact they have something entirely different going on. I think its the same here. When you have a lot of "guilt" that is always available without doing anything for it, then its time to bring this into your sessions and to start dealing with the "guilt" itself, instead of trying to make something out of it that you can hold onto and to turn it into some sort of superpower - symbolically speaking.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:I too have said the same thing of emotional appeal and passive aggression in other posts.

Yep, some people are confused but you're very sharp in that department (no butt kissing, no patronization, just a straight up compliment).

DaturaInnoxia wrote:I'm not sure what you're intending to say here, but I'll refrain from getting offended.

Kids are helpless. But we're adults, we can stand up for ourselves. If someone misportrays us, we can let them know.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:My motive for this post was to collect perspectives rather than asking for advice.
It might have been useful if I'd clarified that as well.

Sounds good, let me know if there is anything I can contribute going forward.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:You seem to be a lot different in the way you post - for a long time now.
I don't fully know how to describe.

When you can put the finger on it, feel free to let me know. I'm all ears.

Esmoke wrote:I wonder if that’s all Npd is, without a solid sense of self they wander off and lose touch with who the are. I’m rambling a bit here don’t mind me

Not at all, it's a good question (skipped that the first time).

-- Sat May 16, 2020 11:44 pm --

Akuma wrote:Change on the other hand side is motivated by insight and needs an internal stability of things like willpower, stress-tolerance, a degree of forward-oriented perspective, as well as an ability to let go of control to a degree.

How are you doing in that department?

ViniStonemoss wrote:If someone misportrays us, we can let them know.

Because this can be relatively common for me, I've gotten lost as to whether we're speaking in generalities or of a particular scenario.

So far, I find it to be better to just allow people to believe what they want to about me and ignore it because I've never gotten a lot of results when trying to clarify - it's not worth draining my energy.
Maybe I'm doing it wrong though.
Also thanks - and I have yet to see you as a suck up. Cordiality can sometimes be foreign and thus easy to misinterpret sometimes

Akuma wrote:I find this to be a very weid question bordering on the unfitting for this specific subforum.
First of all I dont understand why you would need emotion as a motivator to change anyways...

Sort of. Feelings and emotions fuel action including personal change.
Even if you want it broken all the way down to reward/pleasure seeking or avoiding pain/suffering

Akuma, even though I'm not going to do it for you because your motives are not to seek clarification or to understand the post, I encourage you to look up the basics of the evolutionary theory of emotions and motivational psychology if you're uncomfortable taking my word for it.

Akuma wrote:...which in the context of guilt would mean you would have to feel guilty a lot...

No. All emotions are supposed to serve as a means of motivating one to do something.

Akuma wrote:..which would mean you would have to continously do stuff to feel guilty for to leverage the emotion that comes with it...

No.

Akuma wrote:...Besides how unpractical and cliché BPD...

I'm going to continue to encourage you to look to the first part of my response to you.

I may also encourage you to question whether you fit this because you didn't even try to grasp what I was saying before jumping at the opportunity to get indignant.

Akuma wrote:... that sounds this also opens up the question on how much of a delusion ofcontrol is behind this, as this shows a world-view where emotions are only tools and can be produced willingly to work as such, ergo they are under full control.

Not quite. Refer to the first part of my response to you.

As for dealing with the "delusion of control" that's where I "hold onto and to turn it into some sort of superpower - symbolically speaking"
^
I'm not a fan of utilizing guilt myself which was my point in using 12-Step as my preferred method to address change.

Akuma wrote:...Change on the other hand side is motivated by insight and needs an internal stability of things like willpower, stress-tolerance, a degree of forward-oriented perspective, as well as an ability to let go of control to a degree.

Maslow, Humanism, other Positive Psychology, etc.

They also try to utilize emotions as motivators - just positive ones.
I like operating off this as well. I call it inspiration though

Akuma wrote:...Secondly guilt and remorse dont exist as much in narcissistic disorders anyways, including SPD and BPD, as these disorders are primarily splitting-based.

Arguable, but more importantly, not relevant to my points

Akuma wrote:... So the idea brought forth here, that there might be a personality change because of behaviour triggered by feeling seems... problematic... especially since there is no clear idea here which change is wanted concretely. So it sounds more like this change is a red herring for trying to control guilt.

See first part of my response to you.

Akuma wrote:Thirdly, guilt is, if anything, a destructive thing. Guilt is basically the brains automated - and possibly unconscious - self-punishment programmed in by the parents when the human was a kid. I have not seen any examples where punishment motivated any lasting change, especially one based on insight or conviction.

See first part of my response to you.

Akuma wrote:Lastly... to be frank I dont think many people here know what guilt means.

You're certainly showing you don't - and at the same time - making assumptions about how little knowledge people here around you possess.

Also, I summarized it in another comment, but I'll add the American Psychiatric Association's Dictionary definition:

"guilt n. a self-conscious emotion characterized by a painful appraisal of having done (or thought) something that is wrong and often by a readiness to take action designed to undo or mitigate this wrong. It is distinct from shame, in which there is the additional strong fear of one’s deeds being publicly exposed to judgment or ridicule. —guilty adj."

https://dictionary.apa.org/guilt


Still not the point because I described what part of guilt was relevant to my question.

Akuma wrote:We are on the PD forums after all, guilt is not really present as much and people especially with BPD or vulnerable NPD types might think they have lots of guilt or remorse but are probably mixing it up a lot with other stuff.

At this point, with how ignorant you've made yourself sound, there's no way I'd take anything you have to say seriously - but may look into it from a reliable source if it's ever of interest to me.

Akuma wrote:Like when people say they are depressed or have depression when in fact they have something entirely different going on. I think its the same here. When you have a lot of "guilt" that is always available without doing anything for it, then its time to bring this into your sessions and to start dealing with the "guilt" itself, instead of trying to make something out of it that you can hold onto and to turn it into some sort of superpower - symbolically speaking.

Speaking of passive agression, I'd ask you to bring yours down a notch, but I know it will get you more upset.
Perhaps refer to the "cliche borderline" comment - we could be twinsies I don't have a strong commitment to being decent to assholes.

It gets confusing for me when you're selective as to what you find to be inappropriate / offensive and what you find acceptable (and don't even try to claim it's specifically NPD diagnosis based)


My post is relevant.

I've stated "why" in my post and comments - and have now encouraged you to learn more about motivational psych and evolutionary purpose of emotions.



Because some people -  including persons with NPD - can't or won't experience guilt and the fact that emotions are motivators, makes it a great idea for me to ask people here to share their wisdom, knowledge and life experiences in regards to alternatives and gearing down. = my point



I'll take you to have responded by saying that utilizing positive psychology is an effective alternative from when you spoke of "willpower, stress-tolerance, a degree of forward-oriented perspective"



I can acknowledge the word might cause triggers for people and lead them to their own experiences of predjude and stigma around it rather than trying to trudge through my long posts and comments which was not my intention.
So, by all means feel free to report this post and request that it get locked, Akuma. The report box is in the top right corner, I believe.
It seems to be an unintentional trend for me on the forums lately



Also, I will not be addressing you further because nothing in your reply indicates you were wanting to have a discussion beyond expressing indignation and trying to spit a couple digs at me.

DaturaInnoxia wrote:Thank you for the input.

For whatever reason guilt doesn't work (be it since childhood or acquired), I'm wondering what other effective replacements could be.

It comes down to intelligence and basic reasoning. It does take a rocket scientist to know that people respond better to being treated with care; that you get more and are less alienated by following social contracts.

I think George Burns said it best, "Sincerity is the key to success. Once you can fake that you've got it made."

justonemoreperson wrote:

DaturaInnoxia wrote:... I'm wondering what other effective replacements could be.

It comes down to intelligence and basic reasoning. It does take a rocket scientist to know that people respond better to being treated with care; that you get more and are less alienated by following social contracts.

In my mind, it makes sense, but is too vague to apply when it comes to patterns of behavior that one is trying to stop which was what led me to ask the question after that.

Akuma, even though I'm not going to do it for you because your motives are not to seek clarification or to understand the post, I encourage you to look up the basics of the evolutionary theory of emotions and motivational psychology if you're uncomfortable taking my word for it.

That emotions are supposed to be an indicator for action is something my therapist told me a while ago. But I dont perceive emotions and I was mostly brought up to act against most of them, when I still felt them, so for me this is rather theoretical. I also havent done a lot of stuff to feel guilty for. But this mechanism is a short-term thing, I feel angry, it means I want somethign to be diferent, I feel afraid which means i want to retreat etc. In my mind thats not what people mean when they talk about change.

I may also encourage you to question whether you fit this because you didn't even try to grasp what I was saying before jumping at the opportunity to get indignant.

Fit what? From the outside parts of the cliché BPD behaviour is creating lots of drama and intensity where there should be substance and a sense of calm. That may or may not be whats really going on but it seems like a replacement support for continuity; a constant creation of causes for "emotions" so one doesnt realize that theres no substance beneath.
Which leads back to - how do you want to create lasting change by using a temporary emotion like guilt that jumps up as a result of a specific activity that your brain considers bad? Because if you are only using this as an initial ignition, then all that follows this - and which supports change - will not be guilt, as it has long vanished; it will be other factors. For example a cognitive-behavioral therapy. And you can land at that point where you start working on yourself seriously by all sorts of means - which dont have to be emotional.
From my POV youre not really looking for a replacement, youve made clear you want to only brainstorm, that its only theoretical, that you "dont want advice", youve taken great care to not show a shimmer of concreteness about what it is you want to change.
What you want to do, is waste yours and our time because whatever it is you want to change, you havent decided yet if you even want to. Maybe thats something to feel guilty for.

I believe that pwPD often have their emotions bundled, they will feel other emotions instead of the ones appropriate for the situation which is often why there is confusing behaviors. Anger/rage is a common one, it’s a sort of defense against having to feel more uncomfortable emotions a distraction albeit often an unhelpful one until the moment passes. Untangling these and understanding how you are feeling in the moment is difficult as the tendency to just get angry, want to destroy the object of frustration often overrides more subtle emotions that could offer tangible help to the situation.