Empathy is narcissism

My two cents, as someone who feels empathy and doesn't like it. I'm answering to different replies I read without quoting the authors, in order to do a general reply.

Empathy exists, and it feels like an emotion, not like a thought, even if it's different from your own emotions. It's automatic and deeply intertwined with guilt and with shame. Sometimes it can be suppressed but it can't be done voluntarily (you need to be angry or dehumanize. Maybe also a big enough fear works).

People with empathy don't care more than others about strangers until they interact with them. If I am walking and I see a beggar I don't empatize with him, but if he talks I do. Empathy doesn't always work in a prosocial way: sometimes when a beggar talks to me I give him money, while sometimes I feel the need to distance myself from that source of unhappiness so I can react by walking faster bowing down my head a little because I feel ashamed of the disgust/anger that feeling his unhappiness gives me. (Ugh, why does he give me his unhappiness and tries to make me feel embaressed/guilty?! He is doing that to get money... ###$ him! Ugh, I'm a piece of $#%^ for everybody to see... ###$ him!)
People can also care about strangers without feeling empathy both for ideological/identitary and for narcissistic reasons. Usually it's out of repeated experiences of empathy that people develop this kind of ideology, and then they apply the ideology even when not supported by their emotions.

Empathy is a survival strategy. Feeling what others feel can save your life if you are a child in an abusive environment: you learn how to please others, how to diffuse or avoid conflict, how to anticipate what's coming. You are focused on how others feel because you know that human beings are dangerous. You learn to like pleasing others (since you have to, you may as well learn to take pleasure in that) by feeling their pleasure. You learn not to anger others because you can feel their pain.
Narcissism... Is similar. It's shame, shame, shame. Shame is another negative emotion that protects you by keeping you likable and in line.

I say that empathy is a survival strategy because it seems correlated with internalizing disorders, and it has a negative correlation with happiness. It makes sense to me: when you feel happy and powerful, other people are not that dangerous anymore (and it's difficult to empatize with pain if you don't usually feel it). It makes sense also because looking in the minds and hearts of others is the basis of self doubt and low self esteem, of guilt, and, as most here on the NPD forum know, of shame.

They say that we are not who we think we are or who others think we are, but we are who we think others think we are. This is the basis of shame, and you can only look in the minds and hearts of others if you have empathy. You can do that with logic instead of course, but logic is concerned with causes and effects and solutions, not with feelings. If you look in the hearts of others with logic, you are looking "from outside", and you won't feel shame. Logic asks "what does this person want?" While empathy asks "what does this person feel?"

Empathy can have a huge influence on behaviour. I don't care about the millions dying somewhere in the world right now, but I can't bring myself to damage someone intentionally in person. I know I couldn't kick a cat even if for some reason I wanted to, unless there was a very good reason to (like my life depended on it). There is a wall that tells me "That's not fair. This cat trusts you. It would suffer", but it's an emotional wall, not a cognitive choice. In fact, I eat meat without blinking. Of course it makes no sense. It's like just interacting with another being creates a little bond in seconds: it's like the cat is part of my in group, while the cow I eat is from another tribe. Empathy and the ability to connect emotionally are intertwined. Empathy means being a little enmeshed, not separated. It creates interpersonality, a "space" where two people are tuned together. Empathy is the opposite of being... Strangers.

Shame is a huge motivator for me, but even if no one is looking, if I try to break this wall of empathy and guilt (when I feel it, irrationally) that keeps me from doing some things, it's like the wall grows stronger the more I resist it, like trying to reach the speed of light... You can go infinitely faster and using infinite more power but the speed limit of the universe stays out of reach. It's literally fighting against yourself, you can't win because the opponent is exactly as strong as you.

justonemoreperson wrote:
Of course, that assumes an already pre-existing condition.

About:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/personality-neuroscience/article/born-this-way-a-review-of-neurobiological-and-environmental-evidence-for-the-etiology-of-psychopathy/3303021C554B8D3AB5476C31F6CC4E7A

It's a bit specialistic but very interesting, imho it's worth the effort.

This isn't really in response to anyone in particular but it's the only live thread I could find on the topic of empathy.

We're all going through quite a difficult time at the moment and some people will manage better than others.

Was sat here tonight with my (emotional) daughter. Been waiting for a week (since lock down) for her to have some kind of reaction and to be honest I've been dreading it because I really don't understand emotions and usually I'm more than happy for other people to take over and deal with these kinds of things.

Anyway, I must say that I dealt with this situation really well and it was resolved quite swiftly.

I think I've learned the trick of empathising without actually feeling anything.

I just said that I completely understand her frustration, that she's more than entitled to feel this way and that tomorrow we'll do something nice.

It was easy. She vented, I faked empathy and she feels better and I've got some peace.

All people need to know is that their feelings are being validated and then they're happy.

It all started because we couldn't get a Chinese takeaway BTW and blew up from that.

From my perspective, what matters is what you do.... Not what you say, or what you feel. Those things are cheap knock offs of real empathy which is actually doing something that matters. If you don’t have it in you to pull it off you have no place barking about empathy

Esmoke wrote:From my perspective, what matters is what you do.... Not what you say, or what you feel. Those things are cheap knock offs of real empathy which is actually doing something that matters. If you don’t have it in you to pull it off you have no place barking about empathy

Just to expand on what I mean, I know plenty of “empaths” who think they are the most super duperist at being a caring person but when you observe them you realize they do very little for anyone but themselves, I actual test people like this to see how they will act. If someone criticizes me for appearing not to care (which happens a lot) I don’t even let it register in my brain. If someone needs help I will help them, that speaks louder of your character than anything else in my opinion.

The definition of Empathy baffles me.
'the ability to understand and share the feelings of another'
How can anyone honestly do this unless they have had the same experiences, thoughts, feelings, reactions. Yet we are expected to empathize with every human tragedy on the planet.

Say for example I can empathize with someone losing a pet they loved. Do I really want to or need to feel their pain? and relive my own pain? I can offer heartfelt sympathy but should I re-live my own sadness so I share their feelings. it's kind of insane and self-persecution.
Perhaps for sensitive people, who put themselves through the pain of re-living a grievous situation for the sake of empathizing with another, it could be considered a healthier option to shut down.
Those who appear or feel they are 'cold-hearted' may actually be the opposite , deep down; just more economical regarding expenditure of emotion. And perhaps that could be considered wise.

From a positive empathy situation, eg. sharing the feeling of joy, that's definitely rare for me as things that make the majority of people happy fail to do so for me. And lets be honest, drugs, religion, materialism seem to be the best way of accomplishing this. Even the coming together of people to share in the joy of traditional events such as weddings etc.... are not really successful without alcohol.
I guess what I am saying is I think it is impossible to truly, honestly share the feelings of another, and an unrealistic demand placed on mankind.

ZeroZ wrote:Empathy towards other humans, what is it’s primary purpose, why do we even need it? It’s main function in my eyes is to place other humans as a species above all others...

I can see how empathy could be seen as narcissisism because empathy is a matter of going around seeing oneself in everyone else around you and acting accordingly (I can't remember if this has already been said).

Perspective taking, which can be summed up as the non-emotional version of empathy, evokes the same thing.
Both facilitate learning without necessarily having to experience something or even be taught.
When at all possible, I've always preferred perspective taking between the two.
To add, emotional tourism is not empathy either.

Additionally, since emotions/feelings tend to be behind what drives us (reward; drive for pleasure and to avoid pain), empathy is more likely to promote investing in 'cooperation' for meeting one's goals instead of using 'aggression'.

We all know, from an evolutionary standpoint, that 'cooperation' and other 'prosocial behavior' tend to be the more efficient route of a species' survival (even though 'aggression' can achieve results more quickly).

In the paper I posted in my comment a few replies before this, it talks about the different types of altruism.
False altruism / 'reciprocal altruism' is just a long haul method of 'cooperation' that, unlike 'kin selection,' expands to the group (or tribe, species, etc.) rather than just one's own genes.
^
Relevant because generally, empathy is more likely to inspire one to participate in it.

Obviously, even empathy, perspective taking, 'cooperation,' and 'reciprocal altruism' still come down to evolutionary strategies for the survival of ones own genetics.

* I'm half asleep, so I don't know how much I'm repeating myself here.

The title of Slipknot's demo album, Mate. Feed. Kill. Repeat., sums up human behavior in the language of evolution.

Personally, I prefer to see the world in a variety of languages
- metaphorically speaking, of course.

Nobody is noticing that empathy is an all-around faculty.
If you lack it towards others, you lack it towards yourself.
If you lack it towards yourself, you lack it towards others.
When you lack it towards yourself, you have an altered idea of your own identity; imho that is quite a problem (first of all for yourself).

HSS wrote:Nobody is noticing that empathy is an all-around faculty.
If you lack it towards others, you lack it towards yourself.
If you lack it towards yourself, you lack it towards others.
When you lack it towards yourself, you have an altered idea of your own identity; imho that is quite a problem (first of all for yourself).

I think the issue as far as what I’ve experienced is that you can’t know empathy if you have never received any yourself. If everyone was tough and ruthless to you and uncaring, well it’s pretty hard to understand someone else and actually care about their suffering when nobody ever did in your case. You learn what you are taught. You are probably right, no empathy out, no empathy in. No boundaries out, also no boundaries in.

Esmoke wrote:
I think the issue as far as what I’ve experienced is that you can’t know empathy if you have never received any yourself. If everyone was tough and ruthless to you and uncaring, well it’s pretty hard to understand someone else and actually care about their suffering when nobody ever did in your case. You learn what you are taught. You are probably right, no empathy out, no empathy in. No boundaries out, also no boundaries in.

While that may be true for some, it certainly isn't for everyone, myself included.

I've always relied on the empathy of others to be able to get myself out trouble, or gain sympathy and mercy for my behaviour. I think I understand empathy better than most; I use it every day.