Empathy is narcissism

ViniStonemoss wrote:@Jomp, how old were your parents when they adopt you?

Around 30.

xdude wrote:
A lack of conscience can be a powerful benefit too in some circumstances.

Maybe.

From experience, I'd say that not having a conscience is more of a disadvantage. On the face of it, it might sound useful, but there are so many examples of issues, big and small, that have been caused by this over the years that would have been circumvented if there was a Jiminy Cricket on my shoulder.Although he'd also need to be powerful enough to make me change my behaviour, not just recognise it was wrong.

That said, having one can be equally disabling. often people talk about having a 'guilt complex' when they're describing personal issues, frequently not deserved. People's consciences often seem to by hypersensitive and makes them do stuff for other people that maybe they don't need or want to be doing.

HSS wrote:By the way, Jomp: if you lack conscience, how can you be entirely sure that you weren't abused?
We recognized abuse through conscience. I guess you could identify a physical abuse, using a cognitive understanding, but I can't see how you could identify when/if you are/were a victim of an emotional abuse. Isn't it the same as with dangers? Psychopaths don't recognize them...

Interesting question. I don't think I was; I can't think of anything they did that would constitute abuse. Certainly not physical.

That said, the only thing that makes abuse "abuse" is the fact it mentally scars the child, If it went unnoticed by me then it can't really have been abuse.

Negative memories in my childhood revolve around some of the medical stuff I went through. Some of it was unpleasant, but the motive behind it was to fix me, so I don't think this counts as abuse.

It certainly didn't cause the condition, as it was obviously there before the maze-running began.

I am going to go with an evolutionary psych theory idea (could be wrong, but it works for me). I've written before I am a fan of Dove vs Hawk theory too, and in a similar way, some people have a sense of conscience, some don't, and in the middle is the grey area.

I know this is an imperfect analogy, but for anyone who has worked in an ER setting, you have to be able to turn conscience off to a great degree, and just focus on the matters at hand. If you need surgery, well personally I'd pick the doctor that can get it done right without spending any mental energy on anything but that. Of course it would be even better if they had a bed side manner after surgery, but if they have to mentally turn off everything but the procedure, that's the doctor I would want.

Point? Just that in some situations a lack of conscience can be highly valued.

For whatever reasons some people are born without a conscience. In evolution theory that's probably because it serves some benefit too. In the gray area, I have no idea which is harder to do - turn conscience off, or on.

xdude wrote:I have no idea which is harder to do - turn conscience off, or on.

Turning it off is easier. If you have one then you can lose it by abuse, leading to AsPD. If you don't have one, you can't grow one.

justonemoreperson wrote:Turning it off is easier. If you have one then you can lose it by abuse, leading to AsPD. If you don't have one, you can't grow one.

Agree, makes 100 percent sense.

justonemoreperson wrote:That said, the only thing that makes abuse "abuse" is the fact it mentally scars the child, If it went unnoticed by me then it can't really have been abuse.

Yes, I thought the same while I was writing... but finally, I am not sure.
There are different levels in our beings. Even if you don't realize the abuse with your conscience, I assume (not sure) that other parts of your being could react to it, and so your behavior, self-image, feelings, ... could be damaged the same by the abuse.

Think about someone in a coma. He has no conscience, right? If someone rapes it, isn't it abuse?

I think that it's really an important point for you, not just for your past (if there was, what's done is done). It's very important for your present too.
Psychopaths are likely the most defended and aggressive personalities in our society, but my feeling is that the sometimes extreme defense doesn't allow you to realize if you are abused. When I read in Hare about electroshock on inmates, I was surprised about psychopaths' lack of reaction. Surely, it's good, as you don't feel pain/fear; but on the other hand you don't really realize that abuse is happening.
Pain, or fear, give you the “dimension” of what is happening to you: they are signals. Your whole being sends them to your mind: these signals mean “hey, do something about it!”.
If you don't receive the signal, it can be a real problem for you. Sorry, I don't intend to write sad things, or demoralize you, but I think it's better if you consider this, if you think about it. Maybe you can find alternative solutions.

Conscience isn't just a problem of having a social behavior, and isn't just about “morality”.
There are a lot of functions associated with conscience.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it didn't happen. I have no memory of anything approaching that sort of thing. My parents just weren't that type of people.

Three possibilities really:

1. It happened but i didn't consciously care - I'd remember it the same as anything else.
2. It happened but I repressed it. It'll squeeze out somewhere, not just in a PD but in my ability to discuss it, trawl through memories, consider openly the possibility. Plus, as I said, my parents just weren't that type of people.
3. It didn't happen.

I know that you can pull apart each of the above, but when you put them together in a real environment, adding things like the way they were together, the other activities we did as a family, the constant doctor appointments and the fact they had to lock me in my room in case I killed my brother, I'm pretty sure it didn't happen.

However:

If I perceived abuse, it was probably perceived from reasonable activities. My "imprisonment" at night, reasonable as I now see it was, at the time did frustrate me. Frustrate = kick holes in my bedroom door and climb through.

The doctors appointments were intrusions, or that's how they seemed.

So, yeah, maybe my version of 'abuse' isn't what you normally see kids in court pointing at dolls over.

Of course, that assumes an already pre-existing condition.

There have been situations in my life where the only reason I know I've been abused is because I know its abuse but I haven't felt it at the time. Whereas someone else would be utterly traumatised...

And there have also been situations where I've been questioned by professional people in a professional way and I've felt absolutely and utterly violated...like: who the ###$ are you to be poking around in my head?

@Jomp, why did your parents adopt you since they were able to conceive?

Also why would you kill your little brother?

I was often locked in my room and I did not take it well either.

xdude wrote:I know this is an imperfect analogy, but for anyone who has worked in an ER setting, you have to be able to turn conscience off to a great degree, and just focus on the matters at hand. If you need surgery, well personally I'd pick the doctor that can get it done right without spending any mental energy on anything but that. Of course it would be even better if they had a bed side manner after surgery, but if they have to mentally turn off everything but the procedure, that's the doctor I would want.

Point? Just that in some situations a lack of conscience can be highly valued.

There are compassionate people out there who are unflappable. Given the choice, this is the kind of person I'd go for if I needed surgery.

Lacking a conscience definitely brings an edge, for instance, in life or death situations. If I kill you without a moment's hesitation, I may be able to take your food to survive and later pass on my genes to the next generation.

Similarly the lack of conscience gives you an edge when it comes to deception, for instance, cunning your way to higher responsibility or power.

So it does make you a better mercenary perhaps or a more likely billionaire...That is the kind of benefit you derive, the surgeon's example is more of a romantic notion.

ViniStonemoss wrote:@Jomp, why did your parents adopt you since they were able to conceive?

They weren't.

Also why would you kill your little brother?

I used to try stuff out on him and found that I could make him laugh and cry using words and actions. I could instil fear into him and then turn him around and make him laugh and then I'd talk about something that would upset him to make him cry. It was a game.

As we got bigger, I used to use add physical violence to the mix; I broke his leg, collar bone and gave him concussion.Then there were a few occasions where I got caught trying to do stuff that would really harm him, such as trying to get him to put the bare ends of an electrical cord in his mouth.

I blame the Addams Family; Uncle Fester with his light-bulb was great inspiration.

-- 11 Dec 2019, 21:53 --

ViniStonemoss wrote:
Similarly the lack of conscience gives you an edge when it comes to deception, for instance, cunning your way to higher responsibility or power.

So it does make you a better mercenary perhaps or a more likely billionaire...That is the kind of benefit you derive, the surgeon's example is more of a romantic notion.

The devil's in the detail. The problem is that the conscience seems to do a lot for impulse control and encourages you thinking about how others will react. Without it, lies become fanciful and unbelievable. The only way I can exist in society in a meaningful way is to rationalise conscience and apply it, or it all goes to hell.

You think about me hurting my brother and assume there must be some emotional reason; some repressed anger or jealousy etc., which is natural as it's normal expectation; you need strong emotion to break through conscience. Take away conscience and it's no different to throwing a water balloon at him. Just kids having fun; probably more so for me than him.

Without rationalising, I could rescue someone from the top of a burning building and then leave them to die at the side of the road because the excitement is over. I'd take food off some stranger's plate in a restaurant and knock someone out of the way to get a taxi.

It doesn't work.