People with narcissistic personality disorder, what were you

Cassandre wrote:I cannot vouch for Elinor Greenberg, I don't know her at all. But a couple of family types reminded me of my own childhood, and I was curious to know if it resonates with people around here...

I have her book and started reading it, I’ll get back to it when I’m not burned out with psychology. She is a PHD and specializes in treating Schizoid, Borderline, and Narcissistic personality disorders respectively. Has treated thousands of cases of NPD so I hold her view of the disorder above most others. Her book is extremely knowledgeable and informative and in my opinion breaks through a lot of the misconceptions but it’s aimed at the clinicians point of view, it’s meant to help spot the differences in the behavior in a clinical setting.

Greebo wrote:I think these types are a massive oversimplification of what must be complex relationships.

Of course.

You can also combine to fine tune... My upbringing is 4 with my parent's esteem going up as mine is going down, so a lot of put downs, but also quite a bit of 3: I was very special as long as she would benefit from my achievements. Nowadays, by her own account, I am exceptionally bad, which, when you think about it like that, is the resultant of 4 and 3.

Greebo wrote:‘we always love you, we just don’t necessarily always like you very much’

I have gotten my fair share of love declarations mixed with put-downs.
... Another way to mean : "I don't love you, merely tolerate you", which truly means : "my capacity to love is limited and you are going to have to make do with whatever I can give"

The issue I take with that formulation is that it shifts the blame from the parent whose capacity to love is limited onto the child. The subliminal message being : "I don't love you because you're inadequate" instead of "I don't fully love you because I can't" or at least, the way children seem to interpret it...

The child then, go on to live their lives as if they profoundly suck (never really putting the finger on why or how), forever defending themselves from feeling bad. The quality and strength of those defenses literally determining how they will be perceived by society at large.

It may appear as if I'm ranting but what reductive models like Greenberg's are saying is that it is all very mathematical and a matter of retracing the equation to its initial form, a point of view I am sharing.

ZeroZ wrote:I have her book and started reading it, I’ll get back to it when I’m not burned out with psychology. She is a PHD and specializes in treating Schizoid, Borderline, and Narcissistic personality disorders respectively. Has treated thousands of cases of NPD so I hold her view of the disorder above most others.

Thanks for the info. It's got good reviews on Amazon!

Cassandre wrote:You mentioned your upbringing many times already. But it's only today that you framed it in a way that makes me realize the kind of emotional isolation you grew up in. If this was your norm, then it would make sense that you would carry, also online, this distance with you.

I'm curious how you occupied yourself then, were you ever bored?

I guess so. But I have no clear memory of this. I think boredom and especially loneliness were the first emotions I got my hands on to throw them out - I do remember shadowly that there were some instances as a kid where I was extremely angry at myself having feeling and looking for ways to use all sorts of means (including autogenic training which I had learned for a different reason) to get rid of them. But I dunno anymore what they were, I think they might have been numbed earlier.
I do know though that my grandmother was always very "proud" of me - and is so still today - that I always find stuff to occupy myself with.
Its hard even nowadays to find an emotion of boredom, or a "state" of it. It occurs rarely. It should probably much more often, seeing how empty my life is of human connections, an occupation etc.

Cassandre wrote:I have gotten my fair share of love declarations mixed with put-downs.
... Another way to mean : "I don't love you, merely tolerate you", which truly means : "my capacity to love is limited and you are going to have to make do with whatever I can give"

The issue I take with that formulation is that it shifts the blame from the parent whose capacity to love is limited onto the child. The subliminal message being : "I don't love you because you're inadequate" instead of "I don't fully love you because I can't" or at least, the way children seem to interpret it...

The child then, go on to live their lives as if they profoundly suck (never really putting the finger on why or how), forever defending themselves from feeling bad. The quality and strength of those defenses literally determining how they will be perceived by society at large.

I have a theory, but can't prove it, so it's just personal opinion, not fact, that this a corner stone for the formation of cluster B personalities. The rest just depends on the child's innate personality, and whatever path they got rewarded for socially.

It's the "I can't part" that really is at the heart of the matter. How much a kid internalizes this I don't know, but there are only so many reactions possible from I forever feel worthless to I don't care. There is likely no, well that's good, now that it's understood, problem solved. Okay well maybe there is, but I could never do it no matter how much I learn intellectually.

Akuma wrote:I do know though that my grandmother was always very "proud" of me - and is so still today - that I always find stuff to occupy myself with.

I knew it... (that your Grandma played a role in your narrative, I mean)

Sometimes a stable person in your life makes you feel consistently good about yourself, but feeling good this way does not always translate into a strong sense of inward safety.

xdude wrote:I have a theory, but can't prove it, so it's just personal opinion, not fact, that this a corner stone for the formation of cluster B personalities.

I agree. All cluster B personalities must have been glossed over at some point, their reality were not acknowledged, they were not seen. I can't imagine recovering from a Cluster B disorder without nurturing the self. Though nurturing might not be enough as respective misconceptions also need to be addressed.

I am curious again how therapists go about misconceptions in the case of narcissism? I read about it but can't remember the specifics.

xdude wrote:It's the "I can't part" that really is at the heart of the matter. How much a kid internalizes this I don't know, but there are only so many reactions possible from I forever feel worthless to I don't care.There is likely no, well that's good, now that it's understood, problem solved. Okay well maybe there is, but I could never do it no matter how much I learn intellectually.

Definitely. I'm not sure if you're talking from personal experience? From my experience, this is where I experienced the limits of introspection. At some point, without external benevolent intervention, I stagnated. To start caring, I needed someone to mirror my worth back at me and show me my logic flaws

Cassandre wrote:Definitely. I'm not sure if you're talking from personal experience? From my experience, this is where I experienced the limits of introspection. At some point, without external benevolent intervention, I stagnated. To start caring, I needed someone to mirror my worth back at me and show me my logic flaws

Yes, from personal experience, but this brings up a point that I haven't thought about before, or have, but dismissed too quickly.

You are almost assuredly right that introspection can only go so far.

The problem is I learned, as have many others, self-reliance is an absolute MUST. Introspection is still self-reliant so okay. It's also hard to trust, so even if some real benevolence is staring us in the face, out of habit and beliefs, it can be dismissed, or over analyzed. 'What is their real motive, what is it that they really want?'

I do think you are right though. Introspection can only go so far.