Compensatory Narcissistic Personality Disorder questions

interesting, i thought perfectionism was the crux of narcissism?

Well for me I have quite a range of psychosomatic symptoms, dissociative symptoms and one or two underlying PDs, so its complicated. My primary issues are social withdrawal, psychosomatic / alexithymic issues and an overall numbness - so perfectionism just isnt at the top of the associative list I guess.
If you have the average "normal" scores for the perfectionist scales, we could do them for fun, they are not that long. I only glazed over them and looked shortly, I couldnt find the score limits, but it also didnt seem like I would highscore on them or anywhere close. I think perfectionism and entitlement go hand in hand in a way and when you think you are undeserving or when you suffer from some form of depression, then being entitled to perfection becomes a problem. But in any event I'm not sure if its not a problem for me, its first and foremost somethign that didnt come up a lot and that might just as well be mostly out of sight.
As to "crux of narcissism", well that depends. Narcissism in itself just means something that has to do with self-cathexis or self-esteem-modulation. If we imply pathological narcissism or *personality, then I personally cant really understand the connection in every way. Its a bit like with this idea of supply. which I always found idiotic. The idea behind "real" narcissistic PD is ultiamtely that you identify with ideal images. So when you look at a normal person, their striving to become better, their idea to "always go on" seems based on a perfection that is ingrained in the ideal image they have in their minds of their parents - so its exactly that this ideal cant be reached which makes them go on and not stop, since they are [unconsciously] trying to reach an unreachable goal. On the other hand side when you have an identification with idealized images, especially if it happens very early on, then you have perfection already - Striving to be perfect becomes a bit useless, when part of the mind is convinced that its already achieved. When glazing over that meta analysis this point was made in some way when they noted that grandiosity might not allow for perception of imperfection - I dont think they noted the contradiction though. Of course not every part of the mind is necessarily woven into the structure of a disorder, so perfectionism in the sense of striving for self-perfection - and its related negative effects - might be an outcome of conflict.

i see. i guess everyone is different. i do have a strong association of narcissistic and perfectionism traits, just like the case studies mentioned in this chapter on narcissistic perfectionists: https://cruxpsychology.ca/wp-content/up ... .43-66.pdf

as for the weak association of grandiosity with perception of imperfection, it totally makes sense to me. while one is grandiose, one feels like one is perfect and concerns for imperfection are non-existent. on the other hand, while in vulnerable stage, imperfections is what gives a great pain of narcissistic injury, and one frantically tries to prevent disclosure of imperfection.

grandiosity also allows for an illusion/denial that weak points don't count whatsoever. in vulnerable stage, that illusion/denials don't work anymore and those weaknesses are killing us.

what interests me greatly is the oscillation between the grandiose and vulnerable stages of narcissism. I saw it clearly in myself, and that reminds me a bipolar disorder (BD). i actually thought a while i might have BD-2, but not sure anymore. as you, i'm sure, know, grandiosity is a part of mania and depression and vulnerability seem similar too.

thanks Akuma for your time talking to me about it. i best discover things by a dialog.

I don’t see how you can call yourself a perfectionist and use no capitalization in your posts.

Ive become friends with one grandiose at work. For me its extremely easy to spot a narcissist I found.
Its about self katexhis? Everything he does is to elicit attention and abuse the girl in love with him. But he doesnt understand she has feelings and I allready checked this by decieving him. An attention seeking abusive automaton. Narcissistic supply. The emotional shallowness and incapability to intimacy is extremely visible. Perfectionism and self images you say. You think about perfection and your ######6 retards hahahahahha. I dont mean this in a pejorative. Its objectively emotional retardation. At least in the poetic. Its them calling it that:

https://blogs.psychcentral.com/narcissi ... true-self/

"I am still an infant. I never grew up. My emotional and moral development was arrested when I was just a very young child, so I only have the emotional maturity of a child that age. That’s why I can’t care about you. It’s why I must always have my way. Can a two or three year old care about YOUR feelings? Of course they can’t, and like a toddler, I can’t either. I am like a mentally challenged person, only my disability isn’t mental, it’s emotional and moral. I’m emotionally retarded."

flightrisk wrote:I don’t see how you can call yourself a perfectionist and use no capitalization in your posts.

LOL, that's my style. i'm a rebel, you know. you don't have to be perfect in everything, just areas that you value. like i said before, i don't value my weak points, only my strong (IMO) ones.


@AProphet,
what exactly does it bring to this discussion besides showing your own insensitivity and putting others down?

Read the letter. You'll learn more about yourself than long monologues about perfection that dont make sence in the slightest. That brings me to the discussion.

Im sorry the truth is insensitive and hurts your feelings which you dont have. I cant have you circlejerking about perfection and your individual uniqueness with your special strain of narcissim.

ddreamer wrote:[

LOL, that's my style. i'm a rebel, you know. you don't have to be perfect in everything, just areas that you value. like i said before, i don't value my weak points, only my strong (IMO) ones.


@AProphet,
what exactly does it bring to this discussion besides showing your own insensitivity and putting others down?

You said a lot of nothing about yourself. Just empty words. Anyone could say it literally anytime. Could mean anything to anyone. I dont know the exact idiom to say this in english. A dictionary tells me Piss and wind. Dont you see that? And anyway should I only just agree with you? What is a discussion then?

thanks psychforum for the ignore function. the perfect way to deal with assholes.

ddreamer wrote:i see. i guess everyone is different. i do have a strong association of narcissistic and perfectionism traits, just like the case studies mentioned in this chapter on narcissistic perfectionists: https://cruxpsychology.ca/wp-content/up ... .43-66.pdf

Lots of text o_O. Gotta read that at a later point.

as for the weak association of grandiosity with perception of imperfection, it totally makes sense to me. while one is grandiose, one feels like one is perfect and concerns for imperfection are non-existent. on the other hand, while in vulnerable stage, imperfections is what gives a great pain of narcissistic injury, and one frantically tries to prevent disclosure of imperfection.

Maybe its in a sense a matter of what one concentrates on. In my case its mostly emptiness, the "its no use" variety, if I'm in a depressed state. You could say I'm then much too emptied and depressive to be concerned with my image, or maybe the image itself becomes worthless, too. But concerns of my image are rather specific and can be very diffuse anyways. We had some other people here in the past where it was much clearer. Most prominently the dude who wanted everyone to ogle at him, which he would interprete as admiration and then become convinced he "looks like George Clooney", which was like the most [sometimes I felt only] important thing to him. It saddened me actually, the guy, he was suffering a lot and it seemed there was nothing one could say to help in any way.

what interests me greatly is the oscillation between the grandiose and vulnerable stages of narcissism. I saw it clearly in myself, and that reminds me a bipolar disorder (BD). i actually thought a while i might have BD-2, but not sure anymore. as you, i'm sure, know, grandiosity is a part of mania and depression and vulnerability seem similar too.

I would assume that BD is caused by splitting mechanisms not unlike those that create cyclothymic oscillation in BPD and the more vulnerable NPD variants. But as I said I'd get a professional diagnosis. There are very delicate intricacies in differential diagnosis if done psychodynamically that are impossible to capture with questionnaires - the latter which are also often problematic if done by oneself.
I actually read something a few days ago though that you might find interesting, too in this context.

Krizan and Herlache, The Narcissism Spectrum Model, 2017, p.22 wrote:First, research has tested the notion that high chronic levels of self-esteem among the more grandiose individuals may nevertheless substantially vacillate from day to day as narcissists face
threats to their status and inflated self-concepts (Rhodewalt
et al., 1998). Although initial findings were encouraging,
they did not replicate well, and a meta-analytic evaluation
revealed that, on the whole, grandiose individuals do not
have especially unstable self-esteem (Bosson et al., 2008;
Giacomin & Jordan, 2014b; Zeigler-Hill, 2006; Zeigler-Hill
& Besser, 2013)
(...)
Finally, researches
have also pursued the notion that narcissists should be especially
likely to aggress following threats to their self-worth,
in accordance with the classic notions of “narcissistic rage,”
which suggest that challenges to narcissists’ fragile sense of
self will lead to immature lashing out at others (Kohut,
1978). Although grandiosity does seem to fuel aggression in
response direst status threats, it does not fuel unrestrained
anger, hostility, or aggressive retaliations following minor
provocations (Bettencourt, Talley, Benjamin, & Valentine,
2006; Krizan & Johar, 2015; Rasmussen, 2016).

thanks Akuma for your time talking to me about it. i best discover things by a dialog.

[/quote]

Youre welcome.

ddreamer wrote:LOL, that's my style. i'm a rebel, you know. you don't have to be perfect in everything, just areas that you value. like i said before, i don't value my weak points, only my strong (IMO) ones.

Fair enough. I don't think that's unusual, by the way. So what areas of your life do you strive for perfection?

Personally I find that when I'm trying to be 'perfect', I'm often focused on the wrong thing and it's counterproductive to what I'm trying to achieve.

flightrisk wrote:Fair enough. I don't think that's unusual, by the way. So what areas of your life do you strive for perfection?

Personally I find that when I'm trying to be 'perfect', I'm often focused on the wrong thing and it's counterproductive to what I'm trying to achieve.

thanks for asking. interestingly, even though i thought i knew the answer, it's not easy for me write it down. i guess it helps me to reflect on my childhood. i was a kid with some (undiagnosed/untreated) ADHD, error prone, forgetful, daydreamer lost in fantasies, acting out on my impulses, but also bullied in school a lot. my defense was to create a facade of a perfect myself who is intelligent, eloquent, well read, and knows everything. my perfectionism was mostly about how hard i worked toward my goals of becoming someone of high status and power. in that sense, it helped me to achieve some of that, but with a side effect of ignoring the kinder, softer, and sensitive self i was inside. unfortunately, the perfectionism also contributed to procrastination and self loathing when i failed to be perfect (obviously often).