How to go from covert narcissism to overt narcissism?

Akuma wrote:Covert/overt and vulnerable/grandiose are different things so not sure what youre actually asking about. But being more open about one's strengths and successes and allowing oneself to be more self-accepting etc are pretty standard and realistic therapy goals.

Akuma is right, of course.

astraldeath wrote:Are there any methods of going from a vulnerable narcissist with low supply to a more grandiose type?

If I'm interpreting your question correctly, you're more introverted and would like to become more outgoing so you can generate more attention for yourself. There are things you can do to improve your charm and charisma, and make yourself generally more appealing. Is that what you're hoping to achieve?

That will make you a more charming vulnerable narc, not a grandiose narc. It's entirely possible to do that, I think.

ZeroZ wrote:I think I devalued him, I think I saw that type of behavior as childish and idiotic and refused mentally to follow his example, in doing so I hid my Narcissistic side which undoubtedly exists beneath a thin layer of normalcy that can be exposed by any direct challenge to certain triggers. Added to that that I was often shamed for expressing myself in a way that was inconvenient for him and it starts to make sense that I started to deny my true self. It feels like I’m cutting against my true nature to intentionally be grandiose until I am threatened and then like a demon deep inside me is released it attempts to destroy all who stand against me

There is no true self with pathological narcissism do you understand? There never was. Its not some part of quote unquote you. Its not what is thinking the thoughts right now, doing the reflecting. Not you in the past. And only in the realization you will find it. EVERYTHING that you think is you, is not you. YOU dont exist.

-- Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:34 pm --

flightrisk wrote:

Akuma wrote:Covert/overt and vulnerable/grandiose are different things so not sure what youre actually asking about. But being more open about one's strengths and successes and allowing oneself to be more self-accepting etc are pretty standard and realistic therapy goals.

Akuma is right, of course.

Is right because? Or is he right by default. There is no other way to interpret the question. The question is clear and the answer is clear. There is no such thing as a "charming vulnerable narcissist".
Your charming if it suits your current supply needs, and then you discard when they get too close. You make everyone hate you on purpose. Especially the ones that care and love you. Its your supply, its stronger than you.

flightrisk wrote:

Akuma wrote:Covert/overt and vulnerable/grandiose are different things so not sure what youre actually asking about. But being more open about one's strengths and successes and allowing oneself to be more self-accepting etc are pretty standard and realistic therapy goals.

Akuma is right, of course.

astraldeath wrote:Are there any methods of going from a vulnerable narcissist with low supply to a more grandiose type?

If I'm interpreting your question correctly, you're more introverted and would like to become more outgoing so you can generate more attention for yourself. There are things you can do to improve your charm and charisma, and make yourself generally more appealing. Is that what you're hoping to achieve?

That will make you a more charming vulnerable narc, not a grandiose narc. It's entirely possible to do that, I think.

A covert narc is a vulnerable narc, and an overt narc is a grandiose narc. What I was asking was how to go from being the covert one to the overt one. I’m aware they’re different things that’s the whole point of why I’m asking how to convert to the other.

But yeah what you said is pretty much what I’m hoping to achieve. But if I improve myself in these ways how is it that I remain a ‘charming’, ‘outgoing’, ‘charismatic’ vulnerable narc? Wouldn’t these traits make me grandiose?

AProphet wrote:

ZeroZ wrote:I think I devalued him, I think I saw that type of behavior as childish and idiotic and refused mentally to follow his example, in doing so I hid my Narcissistic side which undoubtedly exists beneath a thin layer of normalcy that can be exposed by any direct challenge to certain triggers. Added to that that I was often shamed for expressing myself in a way that was inconvenient for him and it starts to make sense that I started to deny my true self. It feels like I’m cutting against my true nature to intentionally be grandiose until I am threatened and then like a demon deep inside me is released it attempts to destroy all who stand against me

There is no true self with pathological narcissism do you understand? There never was. Its not some part of quote unquote you. Its not what is thinking the thoughts right now, doing the reflecting. Not you in the past. And only in the realization you will find it. EVERYTHING that you think is you, is not you. YOU don’t exist.

Well, that’s depressing, thanks for the pep talk.

ZeroZ wrote:

AProphet wrote:

ZeroZ wrote:I think I devalued him, I think I saw that type of behavior as childish and idiotic and refused mentally to follow his example, in doing so I hid my Narcissistic side which undoubtedly exists beneath a thin layer of normalcy that can be exposed by any direct challenge to certain triggers. Added to that that I was often shamed for expressing myself in a way that was inconvenient for him and it starts to make sense that I started to deny my true self. It feels like I’m cutting against my true nature to intentionally be grandiose until I am threatened and then like a demon deep inside me is released it attempts to destroy all who stand against me

There is no true self with pathological narcissism do you understand? There never was. Its not some part of quote unquote you. Its not what is thinking the thoughts right now, doing the reflecting. Not you in the past. And only in the realization you will find it. EVERYTHING that you think is you, is not you. YOU don’t exist.

Well, that’s depressing, thanks for the pep talk.

‘You must accept the truth’

astraldeath wrote:A covert narc is a vulnerable narc, and an overt narc is a grandiose narc. What I was asking was how to go from being the covert one to the overt one. I’m aware they’re different things that’s the whole point of why I’m asking how to convert to the other.

The question stems from that both narcissistic grandiosity and vulnerability can show in overt and covert forms. So becoming more overt doesnt necessarily mean becoming less vulnerable.
I would find it interesting to ask though, if you want to walk a path of transforming your personality anyways, which will necessarily include a lot of long-time work in all likelihood with a professional, why not aiming for getting rid of narcissistic pathology as a whole.
At least in terms of overtness I've found that therapy does affect that, and in a stable way - its a very slow process though. Vulnerability I guess will be harder, we had several people here though who managed to get more stable in that regard, too. Sadly they tend to disappear from forums as this then heh.

AProphet wrote:Is right because? Or is he right by default. There is no other way to interpret the question. The question is clear and the answer is clear. There is no such thing as a "charming vulnerable narcissist".
Your charming if it suits your current supply needs, and then you discard when they get too close. You make everyone hate you on purpose. Especially the ones that care and love you. Its your supply, its stronger than you.

He's right because he's well-read on the topic.

And I don't mean he's read Vaknin.

He also doesn’t fake his sources nor fabricate elaborate love affairs with women he’s never met.

^^^ Funny (and true)

astraldeath wrote:But yeah what you said is pretty much what I’m hoping to achieve. But if I improve myself in these ways how is it that I remain a ‘charming’, ‘outgoing’, ‘charismatic’ vulnerable narc? Wouldn’t these traits make me grandiose?

Forget about the narcissism for a moment. Let's say we're just talking about introverts and extroverts. An introvert can learn how to behave more like an extrovert -- take bigger social risks, become a stronger public speaker, learn how to become a more engaging story and/or joke teller, etc. These are all skills that can be learned. But you'd still be an introvert. You'd just be an introvert with some mad extrovert skills.

flightrisk wrote:^^^ Funny (and true)

astraldeath wrote:But yeah what you said is pretty much what I’m hoping to achieve. But if I improve myself in these ways how is it that I remain a ‘charming’, ‘outgoing’, ‘charismatic’ vulnerable narc? Wouldn’t these traits make me grandiose?

Forget about the narcissism for a moment. Let's say we're just talking about introverts and extroverts. An introvert can learn how to behave more like an extrovert -- take bigger social risks, become a stronger public speaker, learn how to become a more engaging story and/or joke teller, etc. These are all skills that can be learned. But you'd still be an introvert. You'd just be an introvert with some mad extrovert skills.

What if the individual actually prefers human company but is forced to categorise themselves as introverts because of the social anxiety of interacting with others? If the ‘introvert’ then learns all these skills you talk of and become confident exercising them, wouldn’t they then shift to their underlying extrovert self that was initially struggling to be realised because of that barrier of low confidence and anxiety?

My question is what makes an introvert, really? If an “introvert” wants to be an extrovert, then clearly they aren’t happy with how they are, so couldn’t that suggest in some circumstances that they are in some sense extroverts but this extroversion is maybe short-lived or non existent due to inhibitions, rather than it being simply because they want to be alone and want social isolation?