Where does self-confidence end, and narcissism begin?

vcrpamphlet wrote:

xdude wrote:By the way for whatever it's worth, I think there are two definitions of self-confidence, but I can only try to put them into words.

1.) In one definition, it's about rising above, though the person still feels deeply threatened.

2.) In the other definition, it's about not feeling threatened, so no need to rise above.

Problem is that #1 is what is often most attractive to others on a primal level (we like our heroic figures), while #2 is so under the radar others may just think of it as a weakness.

That's actually really interesting. Cheers, will give it some thought. At a glance, to me it's the second one that's self-confidence; the first sounds more narcissistic in nature.

What can be non obvious is that even when dealing with the same person, they also can be switching definitions on-the-fly. For the person with NPD it can be a never ending mix of I want the #1 version of self-confidence, then I want #2 version. I doubt most people switch definitions consciously, but for the person with NPD, the constant swapping is understandably confusing.

I am a big believer in evolutionary psychology, and primal instincts (hey just my personal views, again I am not saying this is fact), but to me, I understand why the #1 version is both a primal attraction and a turn off long term. The #2 version is more stable long term, but most people want some excitement in their lives, and #2 is boring

Being afraid of something but overcoming that fear and doing it anyway is courage. In fact it is pretty much the literal definition of courage.

Confidence is the belief/assurance that someone or something can be relied upon. If I have confidence in my brakes it means that I believe they can be relied up to retard my progress when I pull the brake lever. Self-confidence similarly is the belief that my I and my abilities can be relied upon to overcome the challenge with which I happen to be faced.

Greebo wrote:Being afraid of something but overcoming that fear and doing it anyway is courage. In fact it is pretty much the literal definition of courage.

Nod to this thought. Making those big leaps knowing there is risk, but going for it, is indeed courage.

#2 is anything but boring.

Though loads of #1s masquerading as #2s in the angloworld, intense need for validation masquerading as modesty.

Also know of a few people thinking of themselves as #2, glorifying their avoidance but truly terrified of conflicts.

Greebo nailed it.

Confidence is about trust and assurance; self-confidence moves that idea to trust and assurance specifically of the self, without the need to seek external validation, or to show off - the agent no longer feels threatened, but unlike xdude's definitions, whether they're passive or aggressive will be more a matter of their native personality; self-confidence allows greater freedom, to whatever self-image someone has.

I actually think "healthy narcissism" is something in addition to self-confidence - the best leaders, for instance, have a combination of both. They aren't quiet, and will use their virtues mechanically in the service of their leadership.

Confidence alone is more limited to specifics - you can be a confident driver, but an unconfident public speaker.

Public speaking is a good example to tease these things apart, actually: in my own case it was always a matter of exposure and practice in that exposure before I did it without anxiety, which says that it isolates the narcissistic vulnerability, in my case, of having a crowd of mirrors reflecting my self-image; and as - to use Greebo's comment - courage overcame that, and those reflections became positive in affect, narcissism then kicked in full-steam, to allow greater freedom of self in that moment.

This is why self-confidence requires a suitable Aristotelian purpose in order to be secure, and why I kind of struggle with the idea avoidance has anything to do with self-confidence. A realistic self-image is one proportionate to the abilities of your own mind and body and a potential of the two together - without connecting such a self to an external sense of meaning, the tendency is for atrophy to occur and a gradually worsening insecurity to develop.

So it follows that, if someone's virtues have found a realistic and positive and purposeful feedback-loop, they are likely to exhibit nil anxiety at all, and be confident public speakers without there being any narcissism required.

I think a lot of this stuff has to do with upbringing, and how well the family unit reinforced healthy self-esteem through realistic appraisal and a secure emotional environment. Overcoming the opposite of that in adulthood, requires some pretty intensive psychic surgery and, in most cases, the lucky fortune of being capable, and finding the right kind of support.

What this stuff says about members of forums like this isn't all that glamorous - but from experience with thousands of individuals from every social corner, it's usually the case that no-one is entirely self-confident in the solipsistic-psychopathic sense; affluent ultra-successful conservative politicians, for example, are more like fortresses of extremely thick positive narcissism, than transcended beings of infallible self-esteem.

Someone like Noah Yuval Harari is an excellent example of self-confidence removed from narcissism altogether - might be considered a positive narcissist by some, but it's just as, if not more likely a case of his having such a strong sense of utilitarian meaning. He's also a hardcore Vipassana meditator who goes on a 45 or 60 day course each year, and practices two hours daily. I think that, as compared to the politicians just mentioned, supreme self-confidence comes from the development of an attention entirely towards meaning, and away from the self altogether.

vcrpamphlet wrote:it's usually the case that no-one is entirely self-confident in the solipsistic-psychopathic sense; affluent ultra-successful conservative politicians, for example, are more like fortresses of extremely thick positive narcissism, than transcended beings of infallible self-esteem.

I agree, they appear like fortresses but there is a fragility somewhere.

vcrpamphlet wrote:I think that, as compared to the politicians just mentioned, supreme self-confidence comes from the development of an attention entirely towards meaning, and away from the self altogether.

I think that would be subjective though... We all need meaning, I certainly need a lot... But some people are content with some meaning. I would argue that devoting oneself entirely to meaning is a subjective choice... Nothing wrong with that!

Completely agree. There seems to be a false suggestion here that people aught to be 100% self-confident - the same as how people aught to "find happiness" for themselves. Who said humans were meant to be either of these things?

We're an imperfect species - evolved from mud like anything else - which imperfection needs to be embraced if you're to ever find contentment. Insecurities, and how they're dealt with, can often be what makes people so endearing. There is nothing remotely wrong with a bit of self-indulgence, if that's an accepted part of your value system; and this stuff applies to the land of the less disordered (there is no such thing as a complete "non" if you ask me) as much as it does to members here.

vcrpamphlet wrote:there is no such thing as a complete "non" if you ask me

When I felt crushed by some issues, my attitude toward "normals" was one of defiance (and a bit smug to be honest). But now that I feel more like a functional element of society, and a cog so to speak, albeit special and unique, I realized everybody's nuts!!

See I spent so much thinking it was just me, that I did not realize, everybody's struggling! Right after this realization, it felt very unsafe: " how can I navigate this crazy world without risking something blowing up in my face at every step".

But now I feel that it's just great, it's a joyful chaos out there ...

Bottom line, I agree, I can say with conviction that I am a non this or non that (e.g. non schizoid), but no absolute non. Most people have traits of something.

Cassandre wrote:

vcrpamphlet wrote:there is no such thing as a complete "non" if you ask me

When I felt crushed by some issues, my attitude toward "normals" was one of defiance (and a bit smug to be honest). But now that I feel more like a functional element of society, and a cog so to speak, albeit special and unique, I realized everybody's nuts!!

See I spent so much thinking it was just me, that I did not realize, everybody's struggling! Right after this realization, it felt very unsafe: " how can I navigate this crazy world without risking something blowing up in my face at every step".

But now I feel that it's just great, it's a joyful chaos out there ...

Bottom line, I agree, I can say with conviction that I am a non this or non that (e.g. non schizoid), but no absolute non. Most people have traits of something.

Do you feel like participating in everyday life having to face situations where you are disappointed, things didn’t go as good as you thought they would. Do you think that has helped curb your grandiosity?

vcrpamphlet wrote:Completely agree. There seems to be a false suggestion here that people aught to be 100% self-confident - the same as how people aught to "find happiness" for themselves. Who said humans were meant to be either of these things?

We're an imperfect species - evolved from mud like anything else - which imperfection needs to be embraced if you're to ever find contentment. Insecurities, and how they're dealt with, can often be what makes people so endearing. There is nothing remotely wrong with a bit of self-indulgence, if that's an accepted part of your value system; and this stuff applies to the land of the less disordered (there is no such thing as a complete "non" if you ask me) as much as it does to members here.

Yea, what a strange thing to have learned, 'I must always be confident'. Huh, why? Once you get your head around that paradigm shift, really see it, then a lot of the self pressure can be lifted.

And yes, fully agree there really is no such thing as a "non" It took me a long time in life until I finally saw everyone is walking around with issues they carry (and display too). Again once you see it, some of the pressure is lifted to try and be an archetype of some sort.