Where does self-confidence end, and narcissism begin?

ZeroZ wrote:I don’t think most people on here have a clue what constitutes Narcissistic personality disorder. That’s the problem.

Beyond the DSM criteria and controversy over the DSM criteria, that very much applies to me. But the fact is, you really don't present as a narcissist on PF, so figure you'd be a good case to learn from.

Is this kind of sharing something you're not comfortable with?

Just going through the wikipedia entry again, which mentions the same grandiose/overt and covert/vulnerable distinction Akuma described, as well as a sh*tload of sub types, the DSM controversy, and criticism of the disorder in general - have to say it doesn't come across as anything other than confused, given the sources behind these sections are all fairly credible.

I don't see much point in reading the literature of subtypes when there's practically zero sense of unity at the top.

If you're able to fill in some gaps of the NPD misunderstanding, it'd be appreciated.

vcrpamphlet wrote:I think - and perhaps you agree - the logic is drifting from a mutual line enough, to thank you for the contribution, it was actually very helpful to read/write these behemoths.

Just to be clear on one point - no frustration from my end at any stage; even when the divergence didn't make sense (to me personally), it was still a helpful difference as it gave more dimension to the discussion. Appreciate what you've taken the time to write.

Thats cool, but I would still like to know what your concrete motivation was.

Patting the steak...

The link I posted explains it better than I can. It took about a year of going through my life history and determing how I interact with people, what my childhood was like, tracking my moods, it’s not one thing and It could also be a number of other combinations of things:

I have borderline traits for sure, and I was also diagnosed ASPD over a decade ago by a criminal psychologist. I don’t particularly think the labels or making distinctions between any of it matters. If I can work on the individual issues that is all that matters to me.

Akuma wrote:Thats cool, but I would still like to know what your concrete motivation was.

For this question?

If it's only part of the self that's in question, then what's stopping proven methods of total self dissolution, very much superintending of these facets, from having a meaningful impact on an egotistical/narcissistic thinking style?

-- Tue May 21, 2019 11:54 pm --

Cassandre wrote:Patting the steak...

As in masturbating?

You spelled gorilla wrong.

-- Tue May 21, 2019 11:57 pm --

ZeroZ wrote:The link I posted explains it better than I can. It took about a year of going through my life history and determing how I interact with people, what my childhood was like, tracking my moods, it’s not one thing and It could also be a number of other combinations of things:

I have borderline traits for sure, and I was also diagnosed ASPD over a decade ago by a criminal psychologist. I don’t particularly think the labels or making distinctions between any of it matters. If I can work on the individual issues that is all that matters to me.

To be fair, was a bit mentally-rapid when you posted that. Will have a closer look tomorrow.

Does anyone around you in your personal life recognise you to be narcissistic at all?

vcrpamphlet wrote:For this question?

For the thread and its main question. Since I have a migraine I'm not going to try any analysis here but I'm just gonna say - also motivated by your misuse of self beign a "delusion" as opposed to "illusion" and your jumping from the meaning of self as a psychological entity to a "self-feeling" apparently very freely - that part of the drifting and lack of clarity overall seems to have causes in yourself. I'm just wondering if that is because you are unclear about your motivation so there is no clear anchor for the concepts or if you are as I said before "beating around the bush" for another reason.

-- May 21st, '19, 15:11 --

ZeroZ wrote: I have borderline traits for sure, and I was also diagnosed ASPD over a decade ago by a criminal psychologist. I don’t particularly think the labels or making distinctions between any of it matters. If I can work on the individual issues that is all that matters to me.

Its probably offensive to a lot of people but I actually think that its indicative of one not having started the work really if one cares too much about labels. Labels are very meta and defensive in their own right imo.

Yes, The people who know me closely do, the most obvious thing is the devaluation of everyone. It’s constant and everyone hates it. If you ask me if I’m better than everyone I would say I don’t think I’m those terms but everyone else Is an idiot and a piece of shlt so by default I guess I am

Basically if you were raised to think you don’t count and you are a piece of shlt it’s kinda hard to see anyone else as anything else

Akuma wrote:

vcrpamphlet wrote:For this question?

For the thread and its main question. Since I have a migraine I'm not going to try any analysis here but I'm just gonna say - also motivated by your misuse of self beign a "delusion" as opposed to "illusion" and your jumping from the meaning of self as a psychological entity to a "self-feeling" apparently very freely - that part of the drifting and lack of clarity overall seems to have causes in yourself. I'm just wondering if that is because you are unclear about your motivation so there is no clear anchor for the concepts or if you are as I said before "beating around the bush" for another reason.

To be honest, was hoping you'd agree the conversation was going no-where. Sorry if the more personal stuff/ my appraisal of your thinking is emotionally unresolved; typing these posts out on a phone, while good for thumb dexterity, isn't that appealing to me when a discussion devolves into jive. The stuff you said about vipassana is b*llshit - I'm a student of 5 courses and 2 as a server, it can very much be approached in a secular fashion, the theory you cited has no bearing on 10 day courses (as in the strict, traditional Buddhist ones) and the whole point of the technique is its daily non-spiritual practice after a course completes. I actually tried to persuade you into attending a course once, and you weren't open to the idea. The stuff about you not being pessimistic is perhaps an error of mine based on our interactions more than a year ago, and the general obstinancy of your style of interaction as seen in this thread. Same goes for mentioning your sources as obscure - again a potential err of mine based on stuff you said last time we got into depth, where you cited a different set of sources to those listed in this thread (haven't gone back over those posts because it just doesn't interest me) - but by the point you'd made that post, had very little motivation to correct / clarify / own those things. Going to the hyperbole of suggesting I had you backwards when much of the problem in communication was your literal taking of points without placing them in the straightforward context they were presented to you, appealing to confusion unnecessarily, and kind of being (no offense) retarded in your flippancy at times, suggested things were getting emotional owing to how I was interacting with you. The stuff you just mentioned is again more jive - just because The Self Illusion is the more commonly used catchphrase, there isn't a semantical problem in interchanging illusion and delusion whatsoever; one means misapprehension, the other means false impression; and delusion is actually incorporated within illusion's meaning anyway; and could easily write an essay on how both apply to the self with equal merit at their most distinctive but the simpler reality is the two terms very much overlap. The stuff about drifting is straight-up smacktalk clearly written to justify the false narrative my thinking in this thread has been less clearly presented than your own; that the self is a psychological entity logically allows for the term "self-fixation" - a fixation with the abstraction - the term "self-feeling" has only shown up once in this thread, in your post just now. I also gave a reason for the question of the thread inasmuch as our relationship and your understanding required as a courtesy - that it relates to my recovery process, inferring it to be helpful with my introspection on the topic, which to get self-indulgent was based on the fact I was surprised to find that I was more self-confident during rehab than I was accustomed to at that point of recovery, and yet still had many thoughts that were narcissistic in nature, easy enough to be mindful of but there as a kind of residual to the headspace I go into as a drunken stoner - and coming back to online forums of which that old thought style is grafted, it very quickly became obvious that my narcissism can quickly become prominent again if I don't make efforts to stick to my goals, which align with my sense of meaning and purpose, which meaning seems to have a valve effect on whether my narcissism is healthy or unhealthy - so there's recently been a rare sober situation where I've experienced both, and making a thread about it gives me an opportunity to think it through in writing with the benefit of differently educated minds having a helpful input. I tend to experiment with different thinking styles as I have an unusual cognition enabling me to do this - I reached the advanced stages of vipassana practice far more rapidly than normal, for example, and even did my last course with a lumbar/glute injury which progressed to a sciatica aggrevation and still did the whole 10 days entirely in the main hall cross-legged without ever breaking a sit of adhiṭṭhāna (1-hour sittings of 'strong determination' wherein students musn't move their bodies whatsoever) which resulted in an injury that took more than six months to heal - point of which being I let my narcissism run more freely in these kinds of spaces so I can understand it better, as it's had a positive impact on my personal life to know its full scope - and threads like this help me to stimulate introspection in a way rehab doesn't. But the more curious thing today has been my obsessiveness, which led to my eating being irregular, which led to a degree of hypomania, which led to even more narcissism which peaked in my response to ZeroZ on the previous page where I basically railroaded his helpful input like a demon on speed.

Anyway, no disrespect intended; I guess it was interesting to see how you'd react to some constructive ball-busting, and now I have a fair idea, at least when there's also a migraine in the mix.

ZeroZ wrote:Yes, The people who know me closely do, the most obvious thing is the devaluation of everyone. It’s constant and everyone hates it. If you ask me if I’m better than everyone I would say I don’t think I’m those terms but everyone else Is an idiot and a piece of shlt so by default I guess I am

Basically if you were raised to think you don’t count and you are a piece of shlt it’s kinda hard to see anyone else as anything else

Cheers for sharing. Now it makes sense why you seem fairly normal here. What subtype does it come under?

To be honest, was hoping you'd agree the conversation was going no-where.

I do which is why I asked for the point of it. Your reference to rehab was so small that I completely overread it. I think overall you underestimate your vagueness and variance in the use of concepts though. I might be very stubborn and stiff but you are on the other end very open to using lots of ideas almost interchangeably, which might add to your problems when concepts really become contradictory. For example you keep on talking about the self as an illusion, while I pointed out that the self in the psychological sense does have real functions which would get eradicated once this self would vanish. Or in simpler terms, an illusory self would only have illusory functions.
Thats not complicated logic, or contradictory, it becomes contradictory because you superimpose a spiritual "illusory" self on a situation, in which a very real self is faced with real issues. Because in this way you can put the spiritual insight stuff in there, which in essence is just as much a magic pill as drugs are - I dunno if this connection is clear to you, or if you will start becoming angry about it. But ok, if you want to stick to the "spiritual" version of the self dissolution then I would point you towards Dharmaoverground and co; places where the people who do hardcore meditation hours everyday for months in a row up until the point of stream-entry - peopel who get to the point of consciousness blips due to overpracticing, they will all tell you that enlightenment does not fix psychological problems or personality disorders. Theres an interview with Daniel Ingram even where this is explicitly stated about personality disorders that he thinks there might be enlightened narcissists and sociopaths (or something, dont quote me on this but its the gist of it).
Its a bit paradoxical, but from my perspective eventhough I argue much more abstractly than you, you seem to be much less strict in applying the concepts you use to judging your own abilities and progress - while I am sticking to my stuff almost autistically you seem to be using whatever suits your inner state and your magical thinking. I think, if it aint already, that will become a hindrance on your path, but of course its your path and your decision, so I wont comment on this stuff any further and leave it at that. For real .

I also gave a reason for the question of the thread inasmuch as our relationship and your understanding required as a courtesy - that it relates to my recovery process, inferring it to be helpful with my introspection on the topic, which to get self-indulgent was based on the fact I was surprised to find that I was more self-confident during rehab than I was accustomed to at that point of recovery, and yet still had many thoughts that were narcissistic in nature, easy enough to be mindful of but there as a kind of residual to the headspace I go into as a drunken stoner - and coming back to online forums of which that old thought style is grafted, it very quickly became obvious that my narcissism can quickly become prominent again if I don't make efforts to stick to my goals, which align with my sense of meaning and purpose, which meaning seems to have a valve effect on whether my narcissism is healthy or unhealthy - so there's recently been a rare sober situation where I've experienced both, and making a thread about it gives me an opportunity to think it through in writing with the benefit of differently educated minds having a helpful input.

Youre really good at being vague. But ok, so if I get this right your problem is that you want to catch the moment where your thinking becomes unhealthy? But thats control behavior isnt it. Control is narcissistic. Now what do you do!