Thoughts on malignant narcissists/psychopaths?

ZeroZ wrote: One guy I knew had his front teeth knocked out of his head for talking back to his father when he was like 13 years old.

Thats horrible. Im a bit surprised I react to that, but that shocked me .

ZeroZ wrote:I also wonder if there have been any studies to look into if certain types of abuse are responsible for different adaptations, NPD vs ASPD?

Maybe this here is a starting point for further investigation?

http://www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artvit/cohen2013.pdf

Akuma wrote:

ZeroZ wrote: One guy I knew had his front teeth knocked out of his head for talking back to his father when he was like 13 years old.

Thats horrible. Im a bit surprised I react to that, but that shocked me .

Perhaps this is a good example of the difference between NPD and AsPD. People with NPD can still be shocked, and feel something. People with AsPD have so shut down (or cannot due to biology) that they feel nothing.

xdude wrote:

Akuma wrote:

ZeroZ wrote: One guy I knew had his front teeth knocked out of his head for talking back to his father when he was like 13 years old.

Thats horrible. Im a bit surprised I react to that, but that shocked me .

Perhaps this is a good example of the difference between NPD and AsPD. People with NPD can still be shocked, and feel something. People with AsPD have so shut down (or cannot due to biology) that they feel nothing.

Makes sense, I would think to survive such an environment at a young age you would have to shut down or break completely mentally.

-- Wed May 22, 2019 8:46 am --

Akuma wrote:Maybe this here is a starting point for further investigation?

http://www.sakkyndig.com/psykologi/artvit/cohen2013.pdf

I’ll definitely read through that later when I get home.

ZeroZ wrote:For instance I would think that NPD is more of a product of neglect, mental abuse and shaming and embarrassment by the caregiver, the child feeling his needs unmet.

All who had a difficult childhood were subject to neglect, mental abuse and shaming. None of them (disordered or non disordered) had their needs met.

Critically speaking, not having their needs met and being subject to abuse is not enough to delineate NPD or ASPD.

NPD is concerned with image, NPD holds a mirror in front of them. and will swing the mirror around to present an image that will garner them admiration. So some authenticity is relinquished to garner support for the image. It is the product of a type of parenting who cares more about how the child's behavior will reflect on them than what the child is experiencing.

ASPD is the product of a parenting style less concerned with image, more concerned with a rawer relationship to dominance. But here as well what the child is emotionally experiencing is overlooked. I think the consensus is that ASPD is "worst" than NPD (I disagree). Since their emotions are not as tied to their image, they may not appear as vulnerable, and as such less in touch with their emotions but is it a factor to take into account when prognosing recovery? Not convinced...

So different types of neglect indeed.

Children are naturally "entitled": I want this, I want that. In the sense that they know no boundaries. The NPD parent, instead of taming this instinct tactfully, and teaching the child to be in charge of their emotions, will encourage this entitlement, maybe insufflate some of his own in the name of specialness. This is true of covert narcissism as well, where it is more discreet. But could be combined with any other type of abuse really.

ZeroZ wrote:Makes sense, I would think to survive such an environment at a young age you would have to shut down or break completely mentally.

Experts on this write about two forms of NPD. Simple and Compensatory (but there are other words for this used too).

I am going to make some broad generalizations here, that are not entirely correct, but just to make a point of the difference -

Simple - Think of some wealthy or in power parents who taught their children, you are special, entitled.

Compensatory - More or less the same kind of abuse that people with BPD go through, but to compensate, the child chooses a NPD way of coping.

Outwardly they can appear to be the same thing, but inside their motives are very different. Both may react to ego challenges, but the simple case is motivated by but mom/dad told me I am special and I refuse to hear otherwise, while the later is about I have been hurt over and over and must protect myself.

Personally I find that I can enjoy the company of the compensatory types (once you get to know them better), while the simple types are hopeless. It's a kind of abuse either way, but the compensatory types (in my mind) tend to be deep thinkers and feelers, while the simple types, bah, they just believe they are 'special' for breathing air like everyone else does.

p.s. Sorry if this posts offends anyone, and even though I am moderator, feel free to disagree. This is just me as a human writing about something I can relate too.

I appreciate you having convictions and be willing to discuss them as a mod.

The only thing I can't quite wrap my head around with the compensatory type is, how do you develop entitlement from being hurt alone? That does not make any sense.

I'm considering the possibility that people you would archive in the compensatory type would not meet the criteria for NPD.

But also, this forum is witnessing many a person with NPD, whom in an attempt to rescue the image, eviscerate narcissism of all of its symptoms (no judgement there, it is part of the defense). Case in point Akuma in a recent post: https://www.psychforums.com/narcissistic-personality/topic202556-20.html#p2107473

To which VCR replied a little below:

You don't seek supply, don't seem to need an external validation; so how are you specifically an NPD?

I guess, for me too, something is not quite adding up. Though I am convinced that most NPD people compensate for low self-esteem by cultivating an elitist image of some sort, but as for the pwNPD in my life, regardless of the amount of abuse that was directed to them, the common denominator is parents either failing to channel their narcissism or downright encouraging it.

Either way I'm curious..

Cassandre wrote:But also, this forum is witnessing many a person with NPD, whom in an attempt to rescue the image, eviscerate narcissism of all of its symptoms (no judgement there, it is part of the defense). Case in point Akuma in a recent post: https://www.psychforums.com/narcissistic-personality/topic202556-20.html#p2107473

I'm diagnosed with NPD but have a subtype for which grandiosity, manipulativeness etc are not features. Instead features of this are feelings of emptiness, depression, low self-worth etc. You could check the studies about vulnerable narcissism or look into the Hypersensitive Narcissism Scale to get a feel for the different types.

Cassandre wrote:I appreciate you having convictions and be willing to discuss them as a mod.

The only thing I can't quite wrap my head around with the compensatory type is, how do you develop entitlement from being hurt alone? That does not make any sense.

I'm considering the possibility that people you would archive in the compensatory type would not meet the criteria for NPD.

But also, this forum is witnessing many a person with NPD, whom in an attempt to rescue the image, eviscerate narcissism of all of its symptoms (no judgement there, it is part of the defense). Case in point Akuma in a recent post: https://www.psychforums.com/narcissistic-personality/topic202556-20.html#p2107473

To which VCR replied a little below:

You don't seek supply, don't seem to need an external validation; so how are you specifically an NPD?

I guess, for me too, something is not quite adding up. Though I am convinced that most NPD people compensate for low self-esteem by cultivating an elitist image of some sort, but as for the pwNPD in my life, regardless of the amount of abuse that was directed to them, the common denominator is parents either failing to channel their narcissism or downright encouraging it.

Either way I'm curious..

I think people fail to realize sometimes that these symptoms can take on different forms. Grandiosity by devaluing others.

I watched an interview with someone diagnosed NPD and the psychologist got specifically into how entitlement worked having talked with the patient before. And his view was that he took what he could because nobody would ever help someone like him, so in his eyes he would never have anything if he didn’t take it when he could. Which is entitlement just not in the screaming child stamping his feet sort of way, or perhaps it is just the thought process behind the action is different.

I personally can identify with both types, I swing from high self worth to feelings of worthlessness and thought of suicide. Not even in a sad way just like it makes sense, I don’t care about anything or really anyone so what’s the point type of deal. The symptoms sometimes are not so obvious that’s why it takes some people years to be diagnosed.

Cassandre wrote:The only thing I can't quite wrap my head around with the compensatory type is, how do you develop entitlement from being hurt alone? That does not make any sense.

I guess, for me too, something is not quite adding up. Though I am convinced that most NPD people compensate for low self-esteem by cultivating an elitist image of some sort, but as for the pwNPD in my life, regardless of the amount of abuse that was directed to them, the common denominator is parents either failing to channel their narcissism or downright encouraging it.

Either way I'm curious..

I am no expert, and can't speak to everyone else's reasons, but

It's a sort of FU reaction, I refuse to be belittled, not sure there any words for this.

It's a primal instinct to survive and thrive but it still hurts much to be tossed under the bus by the people who should have cared for us.

It's why I find compensatory types very likeable once you get past the coat of armor. Sorry words are failing me here, I can only vaguely describe my views on this topic.

ZeroZ wrote:I personally can identify with both types, I swing from high self worth to feelings of worthlessness and thought of suicide. Not even in a sad way just like it makes sense, I don’t care about anything or really anyone so what’s the point type of deal. The symptoms sometimes are not so obvious that’s why it takes some people years to be diagnosed.

This is the classic, overt or grandiose strain. When you dont get enough validation self esteem swings down. Abusive to others.
The other subtype is the inverted narcissist (covert, narcissist codependant). For this one supply is destroying, demeaning, hurting himself. Creating drama. Aplogizing profusely. Desnt seek attention and detests praise. Abusive to himself.