NPD - Who is the one abused?

AcidProphet wrote:Yes i guess I wasnt malignant. But certainly was pathological. I dont know for certain that I have cured myself. They say its not curable. That nobody ever saw a cured narcissist.

Depends who you ask. Aforementioned Donald Meltzer, although he never used the terms like narcissist and borderline him having been a post-Kleinian, he apparently saw patients crawl out of what he called the claustrum. But thats long-term, intensive psychoanalytic therapy, several times a week etc. Others I actually forgot I dunno how Kernberg, Kohut, Mastersone etc. have spoken about it and I think I never inquired. And I stopped reading psych books the moment I entered therapy >_>.

And the false self Is far weaker but still takes over in social situations.

Well its supposed to. One of the drawbacks of using an abstract term like false self is that its true for a lot of things. And we all use false selves in social situations and in work for example. I recently stumbled upon this "Smiling Mask Syndrome", which ultimately also is a side-effect of having to play a role. If you go by the original definition not having a false self would land you in prison.
From a technical perspective though the self is a agglomeration of parts, which have to be there to be functional. They cant appear out of nowhere. That was what my question about introjection and identification was about, but it might be too in-depth at this point.

AcidProphet wrote:Im here to talk about experiences, is that so strange? Is that so unimaginable to pwNPD?

NPD is anti-dependent in its core. The whole idea of narcissism in Freudian terms is self-cathexis, or in later terms a withdrawal from outside objects.
For me personally its mostly useless; I dont get why people want to share. We are individuals. I can share experiences if asked of course, but I prefer sharing knowledge and pointing out what I think are mistakes in logic, because the real path of healing is an individual one that in most cases requires assistance of a trained person in real-life and which in the case of PDs takes a very long time and is mostly unpleasant. There is no magic pills or something for Cluster A or B PDs. So if someone thinks he has had some "insight" then the only thing I can do is point towards problems in his reasoning. I mean you cant use a faulty machine to repair itself - but thats curiously not obvious to a lot of people. Just in the same way that lots of people with mental illness for some reason refuse to acknowledge they are ill or refuse to get help.

Akuma wrote: I mean you cant use a faulty machine to repair itself - but thats curiously not obvious to a lot of people.

What I used was the feeling I had for her. The love I felt. Something my false self denied to me. Would never allow me to think of her that way. Wouldnt allow me to explore my feeling. First by imagining how to love someone and a date with her, confessing my love, buying her a beautyfull meteorite necklace. Practicing my confession, reimagining every situation, at every moment I could have said that I knew she was in love (only becouse I fell in love with her I even knew, they say it shouldnt be possible with NPD. I shouldnt be able to fall in love. First time I was in love) and it would have ment so so much to her. That I even knew. Waiting for me for months. Idk sounds pathetic and Im uncomfortable but at this point I think I should share it. I knew what it means to love first and the face of love (desperate please dont hurt me). Then I understood that there were at least two other girls in love with me at the same time.

I knew I heartbroken her, that was obvious that she felt the same way. I would never know that the heart realy hurts during a heartbreak. Then the true self was becoming strong enough to develop object constancy. It took months to understand how much she tried to do for me. How much she needed me. That she had to do anything for me, even if I didnt care, even If I hated her for it, thats how the feeling works. That in every moment I could have had her, saying anything would be enough.
I understood that there must have been something realy realy wrong with me, that I still didnt know she was still in love. Its becouse my false self knew exactly, saw her just with the corner of the eye and made sure I dont find out. I was powerless, being held captive. Even when I felt her heart breaking I was only strong enough to know that there is a true self and it is hurting her (we dont want her to be with us). At the moment nothing seemed wrong, I didnt even notice that its a WE. Non existant self reflection. Its the biggest guarded secret that the false self is not you. That memory only came back later. I think its becouse I could share in her empathy when we were both in love with eachother. I had that before with my mom. I have memories of her proud when I hated her. When she demeaned me in front of the family.

First I experianced all the feelings the way the false self feels them, I didnt know they are not the same ones she was having. While being narcissistic supply defficient. Was unimaginable to me that there is emotional empathy - feeling the same thing another person is feeling. I was two steps removed from that. I had to learn that there is a false self and it does not love her. It cannot love. All the feelings are fake. It simulates the emotion and its affect, the physical sensations. It decides what its apropriate to feel instead of feeling it. The second step was to learn emotional empathy from the photographic memory. And it was horrifying. I was scared. I couldnt belive the way I treated her, being lied to that its the right thing to do. AND THAT SHE STILL LOVED ME DESPITE THAT. Despite being a monster like that. So horrifying. Just endless agony from waking to night. All the emotions were extreme. So extreme I was puking, especialy after dmt use. But it was good, cleansing puke. It helped me deal with the pain. Fear, sadness, grief, despair, shame, disapointment anger, jelousy, remorse, indignation, even hate. I didnt understand hate. That you WANT to hurt the other person. A narcissist cannot hate. I learned that emotions work in such a way that you feel it out and your better, at least for a short while. If you cry it out. You dont have that as a narcissist. You need constant external affirmation, without it you disintegrate.

So now Im at the stage where I can be my true self even in social situations, not always but sometimes. Its still ######6 dissapointing but she wouldnt fall in love with me if she didnt want the heartbreak. Only an insane person that hates love would heartbreak HER. And If we just had our perfect love, none of us would get to learn negative feelings.
It still realy hurts that she thought she fell in love with the biggest idiot. Im trying to tell myself that. It wasnt me, and it doesnt matter what she thinks of me, she has no idea what im dealing with. That the only oppinion of me that matters is my own. But being the biggest idiot still realy realy hurts. Enragingly stupid. Disapointing her like that, when she belived in me. When it was so simple to let love change me. In two weeks I knew how to NEVER loose her. If I was just allowed to trust my feeling. She couldnt belive that she tried to do anything for an idiot like that. "Please, I love you, please dont break my heart". It was too much. Begging god for me to fall in love with her. Being cute just for me. Idiot didnt know she was in love, broke her heart by ignoring her and then fell in love. She will never know I was in love the whole time. Just held captive, my false self waiting to administer the blow. "she hates you, is angry with you, time to trust your feeling".
I want to fall in love again.

Would be prudent to insert how I learned selfless love. Wasnt immediately obvious to an NPD.
"I wanted to show you something" "Its a meteorite, means it fell from the sky, of extraterrestial origin"
"Like a shooting star?"
"A shooting star is a meteor. Means it burned up in the atmosphere. If it hits the ground its a meteorite, a mineral. Theres about 107 known meteorites"
Them explaining this to someone else. She finishes the sentance "A shooting star is a meteor. Means it burned up in the atmosphere. If it hits the ground its a meteorite, a mineral." Learning, becoming a better person with me. And the face of love. Extreme pride, almost crying happyness.

Akuma wrote:because the real path of healing is an individual one that in most cases requires assistance of a trained person in real-life and which in the case of PDs takes a very long time and is mostly unpleasant

It was realy unpleasant and It only kept me alive that it wasnt me. That I had no choice. Can you just go threw it with your knowledge, you have 1500 posts for what its worth, you must be somewhat trained by now. I think I managed to identify my core wound (being hated by my mom,she was a narcissist) Do you think fixing your core wound is what constitutes the path to recovery? And tell me about yoursef. So you have a diagnosis but dont belive that there is a true self abandoned in your psyche somewhere?

AcidProphet wrote:What I used was the feeling I had for her. The love I felt. Something my false self denied to me. Would never allow me to think of her that way. Wouldnt allow me to explore my feeling. First by imagining how to love someone and a date with her, confessing my love, buying her a beautyfull meteorite necklace. Practicing my confession, reimagining every situation, at every moment I could have said that I knew she was in love (only becouse I fell in love with her I even knew, they say it shouldnt be possible with NPD. I shouldnt be able to fall in love. First time I was in love) and it would have ment so so much to her. That I even knew. Waiting for me for months. Idk sounds pathetic and Im uncomfortable but at this point I think I should share it. I knew what it means to love first and the face of love (desperate please dont hurt me). Then I understood that there were at least two other girls in love with me at the same time.

You sound a bit like me when I was a teenager. You're obsessive and youre projecting a lot, too. It also reads like you have not actually talked with her, you have been imagining a lot, her "real feelings", her "waiting", your "monstrosity", even her heartbreak, you say "it was obvious", which implies you dont even know. You sound like you've merged your hopes with reality - using hallucinogenic drugs on top of that - until it became unclear which is which.
Feeling love is just that. Its just a feeling. It proves nothing in relation to a PD, even some people with ASPD can feel love. And as I said I've been in love myself, have idealized the guys I was in love with a lot, thought they could or would love me back. But theres a saying about Borderliners I've read a longer while ago that always comes up in this context and which is very true. "Intensity aint Intimacy".

AcidProphet wrote:It was realy unpleasant and It only kept me alive that it wasnt me. That I had no choice. Can you just go threw it with your knowledge, you have 1500 posts for what its worth, you must be somewhat trained by now. I think I managed to identify my core wound (being hated by my mom,she was a narcissist) Do you think fixing your core wound is what constitutes the path to recovery? And tell me about yoursef. So you have a diagnosis but dont belive that there is a true self abandoned in your psyche somewhere?

The self is a vast network of associative connections, basically its a list of data that has the "self" flag in relation to the "not self" flag, a division which can become broken in psychosis. Theres other dimensions, too but it suffices to say that a "core wound" doesnt exist like that; that , too is a pop-psychological thing. Psychological wounds are manifold in all people and can lead to all sorts of issues, including somatic and cognitive ones. Some psychological traumas have more impact than others, either because they appear on top of a fragile or fragmented structure, or because they are repeated very early on and reinforce defensive or maladaptive behahior. Having said that if you had a mother who was abusive or who was unavailable then that will damage a lot of parts of a lot of structures in lots of different ways and intensities. Therapy is about looking at all sorts of different parts and slowly trying to grow new ones so to speak and to learn to tolerate stuff more. So in light of this, a True Self is not a monadic thing hidden somewhere. If you feel compelled to use this word, then the true self is those parts of the network that are authentic, spontanous, healthy. Its quite a low-level thign and is ultimately based in part on drive theory. Or as Winnicott, who coined the term originally said

Winnicott wrote:The True Self appears as soon as there is
any mental organization of the individual at all, and it means
little more than the summation of sensori-motor aliveness.

But in light of the whole mental system being a network, then the False Self and the True Self are interconnected, almost indistinguishable and splitting them into True and False is - well - splitting. And as that, is not insight but a defense mechanism.

Akuma wrote:You sound a bit like me when I was a teenager. You're obsessive and youre projecting a lot, too. It also reads like you have not actually talked with her, you have been imagining a lot, her "real feelings", her "waiting", your "monstrosity", even her heartbreak, you say "it was obvious", which implies you dont even know.

I didnt know at the time, but I saw her a lot and had photographic memory of every interaction, so I had everything I needed to understand what she was feeling, and what even happened. I remembered everytime becouse it was significant, becouse we were both in love with eachother.

Akuma wrote:Feeling love is just that. Its just a feeling. It proves nothing in relation to a PD, even some people with ASPD can feel love. And as I said I've been in love myself, have idealized the guys I was in love with a lot, thought they could or would love me back. But theres a saying about Borderliners I've read a longer while ago that always comes up in this context and which is very true. "Intensity aint Intimacy".

I also thought I was in love before but It was just idealization, not love. In fact my false self knew I will fall in love with her, before I did. Its the only explanation why I couldnt just lovebomb her like the other girls, why she didnt exist.

Akuma wrote:The self is a vast network of associative connections, basically its a list of data that has the "self" flag in relation to the "not self" flag, a division which can become broken in psychosis. Theres other dimensions, too but it suffices to say that a "core wound" doesnt exist like that; that , too is a pop-psychological thing. Psychological wounds are manifold in all people and can lead to all sorts of issues, including somatic and cognitive ones. Some psychological traumas have more impact than others, either because they appear on top of a fragile or fragmented structure, or because they are repeated very early on and reinforce defensive or maladaptive behahior. Having said that if you had a mother who was abusive or who was unavailable then that will damage a lot of parts of a lot of structures in lots of different ways and intensities. Therapy is about looking at all sorts of different parts and slowly trying to grow new ones so to speak and to learn to tolerate stuff more. So in light of this, a True Self is not a monadic thing hidden somewhere. If you feel compelled to use this word, then the true self is those parts of the network that are authentic, spontanous, healthy.

But in light of the whole mental system being a network, then the False Self and the True Self are interconnected, almost indistinguishable and splitting them into True and False is - well - splitting. And as that, is not insight but a defense mechanism.

Yes I understand what you've been trying to say. And have been re-reading some of your posts. If you prefer to talk about capacities than abstractions like the "false self" and "true self", thats exactly what i mean by true self. My capacity for self expression, self reflection, and emotional empathy were nonexistant and I practiced and worked on those in light of the situation. Thats what I ment when I said "discover and nurture the true self". Growing those spontaneous, healthy capacities.

Akuma wrote:even her heartbreak, you say "it was obvious", which implies you dont even know.

Dont you think this is an error in logic? we both had the same feeling, and both had the same sensation of heartbreak. Its not an assumption. Also saw her suffering right after.

AcidProphet wrote:

Akuma wrote:even her heartbreak, you say "it was obvious", which implies you dont even know.

Dont you think this is an error in logic? we both had the same feeling, and both had the same sensation of heartbreak. Its not an assumption. Also saw her suffering right after.

Well you wouldn't use the word "obvious" if you would've talked with her. And you cant know what she felt if you didnt.
Are you still using?

Akuma wrote:And you cant know what she felt if you didnt.

I can. Thats how empathy works. I can know what she felt just by looking at her. And feel it FOR HER. I wouldnt have known that before this.

Im still using. I want to break threw on the dmt and finally see hyperspace. But Im depressed by the negative feelings, still waiting - everytime I smoke I just revisit these.

Also one friends, that saw the moment I fell in love, and then helped her get my attention so she can confess gave me narcissistic injury. "you idiot she was in love with you, you broke her heart" He didnt say that, it was the look. He thought im so stupid that I was in love with her and didnt know she was in love with me. I was even stupider. I knew she was and never said. Wasnt important. You cant be this stupid. He is stupid. I knew she was and hated her for it. I had an incurable mental illness.

You seem adamant that this is all my imagining and projection. It doesnt matter. The feelings are whats real. It wouldnt matter if I imagined all this under hallucinogens. The lesson is the same.

But I will write the facts in sequence of what happened for you, if thats what you wish. So you can challenge me on them.

Please stop pointing out I never spoke to the girl while we were both in love with eachother. Its so painfull. I needed her desperately. My first love in 29 years. I didnt even get to meet her. My false self would never allow that. Wouldnt even let me look at her when she wanted to confess. Thats what It took to understand I guess. That there is something wrong with me.

AcidProphet wrote:You seem adamant that this is all my imagining and projection. It doesnt matter. The feelings are whats real. It wouldnt matter if I imagined all this under hallucinogens. The lesson is the same.

Just that you are feeling something doesnt mean its real. Theres people that are totally afraid of elevators or spiders, yet elevators and spiders pose no intrinsic danger. Just because you feel that someone likes you doesnt mean they like you, and especially it doesnt mean that you can feel something for them, since you are seperate people. So basically that girl never spoke to you, yet you are convinced she loved you and was heartbroken, and that friend of yours, too didnt say what you think he said, but you imagined this by the way he looked.

*mod edit*