Question from possible non about convert narcissism

I usually appear on the BPD forum for my own problems, but over the years I've been wondering about my own narcissistic tendencies and strongly suspect my mother is a narcissist (and possibly my sister).

My question is: as I understand it, at the base of narcissism is shame and self-hate (correct me if I'm wrong). Now is it possible for someone to be narcissistic but are so ashamed of that narcissism that they hide it? Kind of like:

First layer: Shame, self-hate
Second layer: Narcissism, first false narcissistic self
Third Layer: Shame of narcissism, second false non-narcissistic self

The reason I say this is because I've been living with a strong false self for over 20 years. I can identify with a lot of the narcissism symptoms and sometimes when I find myself thinking that I have more entitlement, more importance and superiority, I feel ashamed of it and try to convince myself that love, kindness and compassion are the way. However, when I try this approach, it also feels false (and inside I'm still hating) and the result of being the "nice person" is that I've just ended up being taken advantage of and terrified of confrontation - it makes my cheeks burn with shame and makes my heart race and I rage behind the scenes. I used to be much more confrontational in my twenties but then that kind of disappeared.

I'm empty and emotionally numb most of the time until I'm triggered by abandonment, (certain other things which I won't mention here) or being "found out" which induces anger..but then so does BPD.
As I'm getting worse and not better, sometimes I wonder if it would be better for me to tread all over someone to get what I want if I didn't think I was going to be found out or feel shame as a result...but then I sort of convince myself that I wouldn't do that and I should be good. Indeed I am manipulative but that's generally kept between me and my partner. I suppose I'm so sick of feeling downtrodden and missing out that my mind has lately been wondering if I should stop repressing my darker side, although I wouldn't know the first way to even begin expressing it, since everyone I know is an acquaintance of my false self, the ghost.

I have no idea if any of this is making sense but I'd be interested in hearing views on covert narcissism.

updown_14 wrote:My question is: as I understand it, at the base of narcissism is shame and self-hate (correct me if I'm wrong). Now is it possible for someone to be narcissistic but are so ashamed of that narcissism that they hide it? Kind of like:

First of all narcissism outside of the DSM box is a very abstract term that can mean "concerning the self" or "concerning self-esteem regulation", but can also be used to mean love for oneself.
Covert narcissism - pathological and healthy one - doesnt have to be caused by shame, it can also be caused for example by someone having learned that he has to constantly be available for others, or that he can only live by others definition etc. so his own [healthy] self-love is suppressed or hidden etc. So theres more possibilities here.

updown_14 wrote:I suppose I'm so sick of feeling downtrodden and missing out that my mind has lately been wondering if I should stop repressing my darker side, although I wouldn't know the first way to even begin expressing it, since everyone I know is an acquaintance of my false self, the ghost.

Well technically this is splitting at work, isnt it. If you are a nice person you will be taken advantage of, if you are doing something for yourself or if you are assertive, then you are showing a dark side.

Akuma wrote:Covert narcissism - pathological and healthy one - doesnt have to be caused by shame, it can also be caused for example by someone having learned that he has to constantly be available for others, or that he can only live by others definition etc. so his own [healthy] self-love is suppressed or hidden etc. So theres more possibilities here.

I would say this is characteristic of the co-dependent variety of self-denial. Anyone that has NPD of the covert variety will be more duplicitous. Cnpd might have some similar tendency and they have indeed not found their own self and self-definition. The covert kind - even if they do find it, it will only be a false sort self created in order to feel special and bring attention to them that they will be stuck with in-constant-need-of-validation mode.

Its possible but really depends on the used definition above all. Theres a book by Ralph Klein I've posted excerpts of here longer ago, that - based on Mastersons formulation of CNPD - sees that as a form of vulnerable narcissism based on nonexistent mirroring of infantile narcissism by the caregiver. For those following that formulation this leads to the grandiose self structure being inverted in a way leading to a dependence on and idealization of the "omnipotent object", making such patients erroneously be classified as "borderline" to the therapist. One should still be able to find the link with the forum search.
I think researchers nowadays rare trying more to differentiate between vulnerable and covert, with again the latter meaning that its not obvious / hidden / suppressed etc.

Interesting comments...

updown_14 wrote:My question is: as I understand it, at the base of narcissism is shame and self-hate (correct me if I'm wrong). Now is it possible for someone to be narcissistic but are so ashamed of that narcissism that they hide it?

Like Akuma said, narcissism is a complex concept.

What i read is that your mother has narcissistic traits. Which means that she was probably threatened by your natural babie's tantrums, your desire to assert yourself, and maybe it was complicated for you to feel natural with her. You always had some little voice saying : be careful, control yourself.

Indeed I am manipulative but that's generally kept between me and my partner.

You mean that you are manipulative with your partner? Or that you tell your manipulations to your partner?

Is it really that you are manipulative, or that you are more complete, more yourself with that person?

Just some thoughts some questions

You´re all kidding yourselves here by trying to find and answer to the

If they were a non I would tell them — trust me you would not wish to convert to narcissism in the first place