Closet/covert narcissism

Midwinter wrote:
But sure, hide behind the questions.

I suppose I had it coming..

I dont do stuff to feel guilty for, so no idea.

Some actions I've done did cause pain to others, even though they were not meant to cause anyone pain. I do feel guilty for some, or rather not so much for actions themselves (with few exceptions), but for causing pain to another being.

I care about a certain neighbour who is the current focus of some of my projections since a year but who doesnt know about it.

Why not tell him?
Could you maybe expand a bit on the being one with the people you fell in love with and them "being like little parts of you"?
I am unsure about everything else, but based on what I was previously writing in another topic, I'm pretty sure Quoth got it right when connecting my relationship with what Masterson described (child idealizing others to seek one-mindedness and "basking in the glow" of the idealized object).
Is it possible to still speak about covert traits rather than disorder if the described relation to object is present?
What is the difference between codependency and closet narcissism (I'm guessing a cod. can also be a c. narcissist)?

zZz. These are a lot of questions.

I'm aware it is..I do hope you answer some of them at least , as it'll take forever waiting for another covert narcissist around here speaking from both personal experience and research read.

until I realized humans look at each other in teh street for unknown reasons. Humans are very weird.

Weird indeed, but in an amusing way.

How do you feel about having a nose?

Ok. Gotcha.

Didnt you say three days ago you are sick of labels?

I did. I am tired. Empath is not a real label, if I'm honest with myself. I realize how mentioning it to others more than one might be perceived as narcissistic, or how easy it is to "adopt" it with everything positive that's written about it online, what I mean by it is a guess a mixture of sps, hypervigilance that emerged from codependency (or CNPD?) and increased aff. empathy.
Not only that I'm tired of it, I also fear being labelled anything. The reason I opened this topic is probably because I'm hoping to desperately hold onto someone's - no, you don't have it, you can just go back to your life. As much as I'm hoping to hear this, I'm also aware it's necessary to hear the truth, and accept it, whatever it is, or I'll never see any progress. (I'm also aware there's only one person who can give me this "truth" on paper, and that person does not reside in psychforums..)

Also, thank you for answering all my questions.

shanzeek wrote:Some actions I've done did cause pain to others, even though they were not meant to cause anyone pain. I do feel guilty for some, or rather not so much for actions themselves (with few exceptions), but for causing pain to another being.

Hm dunno. The whole ASPD category of no remorse etc. is based on people doing a lot of "bad" stuff first, without that the whole question is kinda pointless. But a lack of remorse isnt a criterion for NPD anyways.

Why not tell him?

I might at some point, but its hard enough to get any normal contact first :p.

Could you maybe expand a bit on the being one with the people you fell in love with and them "being like little parts of you"?

I think its a function of this caring inversion that Bowlby speaks about in my case...
... cant find quote at the moment >_<.
Basically he describes that he experienced it often that children where caregiving failed at some point very drastically maybe thru leaving or death of a parent that the kid started to take on the role of parent [for other kids], I think he categorized this as a form of compulsive caregiving which would later possibly lead to overprotective parenting, further role inversions etc.
On a neurotic level this will be annoying enough I suppose but on a borderline-narcissistic level there will be diffusion between subject and object, a feeling of annihilation anxiety, that when the object leaves [=gets destroyed] the self gets destroyed [or fragmented -> psychosis].
Apart from that though it had a completing quality and a weird "us against them" quality that is hard to describe. Basically the paranoid background shifted a bit and with the caring for the little twin there was one the one hand side a massively grown strength and security but also a feeling that there was a more accurate perception of the evil forces that tried to harm him.

I am unsure about everything else, but based on what I was previously writing in another topic, I'm pretty sure Quoth got it right when connecting my relationship with what Masterson described (child idealizing others to seek one-mindedness and "basking in the glow" of the idealized object).
Is it possible to still speak about covert traits rather than disorder if the described relation to object is present?

Theres no handbook for when traits becomes disorder, in my opinion ti has to do with how much BPO stuff is in there or how broad the affected reality-range is.

What is the difference between codependency and closet narcissism (I'm guessing a cod. can also be a c. narcissist)?

Codependency comes from alcoholics anonymous and describes a person that is - often unconsciously - enabling an alcoholic, by giving him space to live, maybe giving him money for alcohol etc. I would say the difference is rather obvious, first of all in NPD were not talkign about addiction at all, secondly - have you ever seen a glowing alcoholic?

I did. I am tired. Empath is not a real label, if I'm honest with myself. I realize how mentioning it to others more than one might be perceived as narcissistic, or how easy it is to "adopt" it with everything positive that's written about it online, what I mean by it is a guess a mixture of sps, hypervigilance that emerged from codependency (or CNPD?) and increased aff. empathy.
Not only that I'm tired of it, I also fear being labelled anything. The reason I opened this topic is probably because I'm hoping to desperately hold onto someone's - no, you don't have it, you can just go back to your life. As much as I'm hoping to hear this, I'm also aware it's necessary to hear the truth, and accept it, whatever it is, or I'll never see any progress.

Also, thank you for answering all my questions.

Well it might be a necessary point at the moment, but as soon as you find yourself in some depth-oriented therapy, such labels become very meaningless.

this is what confuses me.
a codependent with the narcissist attract each other like magnets, while 2 codependents will not attract like this .most probably they will repel each other.
but in couples you can see often 2 narcissists,it's a famous couple with 1 covert and 1 overt narcissist.(or at least with people narcissistic traits.)
or also another famous couple the borderline /narcissistic.
so a covert narcissist can be the codependent of the overt.
or if is a borderline and a covert narcissist couple,who is the codependent?
i imagne codependent is the one who has the preoccupied attachement,or it doesn't matter at all and it just means you are the enabler and the giver,while the other is the receiver.
so overt narcissist with borderline = borderline the codependent
but covert narcissist with borderline= covert the codependent?
and although they say 2 dismissive attachments do not match so well,apparently you can see couples with 2 overts narcissists also

if you see a couple with 2 borderlines who is the codependent?

-- Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:17 pm --

or it just means none is the codependent. they are just 2 borderlines with codependent relationship

-- Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:20 pm --

i relate that with the op because obviously you were in a codependent relationship.maybe you were the codependent with covert traits ,not having the disorder

I would say noone in such relationships ic codependent. Co-dependent means that your partner is dependent on a substance and you are co-dependent on him and indirectly the substance. It has to my knowledge never been used in literature on PDs, I'm not even sure if its an accepted psychological concept at all.
Why people on this forum have become accustomed to calling themselves codependent in regards to their [supposed] PD'd Exes I dunno.

you are addicted to a person.it started from alcoholics but it can be used in relationships because is like addiction and you enable the person with the pd in the exact same way the family of the alcoholics does.you have same behaviors.if you saw my mom you would have a very clear view of what it means.
when you are in a codependent relationship you feel addicted like drugs to the other person

-- Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:41 pm --

the person with the pd is the one addicted and his family enables him and justifies him,so you are codependent on him and indirectly to the pd

-- Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:42 pm --

there is also dependent pd

It might feel like it but its pretty different.
A borderline for example is not addicted to anything. Theres no need for a kick or something, its just that the use of splitting and projection and the lack of detailed inner object-images [or encodings] makes emotions be felt very intensely, which can subjectively be perceived almsot like a high. But its pretty different from being a drug addict, basically the borderline situation itself even makes the whole chasing-high impossible, because in "true" borderliners the splitting makes them forget the split-off part. So if you are devaluing an object [and the self] there is no current knowledge of the "high", it has been forgotten and therapists need quite a while to remind pwBPD over and over again sso they start making these connections.
In pwNPD its not so different, the self-ideal is just that, a stable identification, and if you are "understood" ergo mirrored correctly, that is awesome and feels good, and if not, then you will not integrate that object into the grandiose-self but ignore it. But here, either, there is no addiction, its just that an object either fits or doesnt, and again the intensity of the emotion is based on the whole system being borderline.

you know the "without him i want to die" feeling seems like drug addiction. at first you get high and everything is sweet but like drugs at the end you become sick .sicker and sicker and is difficult to stop.
the most disordered would sacrifice everyone to just be with their person

-- Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:51 pm --

at first you feel the high ,at the end after time the high is more difficult to get and the low more painful and unbearable. but then again it doesn't happen often to me. i find it rare. the feeling of just simply devaluing someone is easier with most people

Yea sure it will probably acivate the same [reward] centers in the brain. And having been in both situations I would maybe also have trouble distinguishing them if I just went from the emotional situation. But from the psycholgoy of things they are rather different scenarios. Another example would be this thing they call "love addiction", I think thats a word they liked to use in USA for a while; used it for what is Erotomania, so they mix up an addiction with a disorder of the psychotic spectrum. That would become an annoying obstacle in treatment if that happened in a clinic or therapy >_>.
But anyways, I just wnated to point it out, so many ppl here use codepdendency, its not going to change anyways hehe.

Akuma wrote:But anyways, I just wnated to point it out, so many ppl here use codepdendency, its not going to change anyways hehe.

I use the term codependent to describe children with at least one cluster B parent (not necessarily abused?) who often display narcissistic, borderline and other cluster B traits but do not fit the criteria for a full-blown PD, that later end up in toxic relationships with a cluster B, it's possible I'm the only one to agree with this "definiton", though. I do think there should be (or there is, but I am not aware of it?) a term to describe people like me, jullia, potentially EE, who share various traits of their parents but don't fit any of the cluster B disorders. Neither of us knows their exact dx, so I often used the term codependent in lack of a better word.