Closet/covert narcissism

shanzeek wrote:I've noticed Akuma that you don't talk much about your private life, but you did mention the bakery on more than 3 occasions. Why is that? Does the going to the bakery in the morning bear more relevance to you than one might guess? Is it some childhood memory (it actually reminds me of my childhood..) or am I again over-analyzing here?

I dunno. Since I'm visually handicapped I can't drive a car so having the bakery practically around the corner isa nice thing about the new apartment. In this context tho I think I just mentioned it because it is a sort of supply.
The whole idea of supply in narcissism is a projection in my opinion. Supply, if we symboliez this as any absolutely-good thing that gives is somethign that might be a deep yearning in a borderline f.e. but when we accept that a narcissist has merged his self with such an absolutely-good-giving-object, the need for supply is not there. I think its hard to imagine that there are people who dont need socal interaction, or that dont feel emotions, or that dont have remorse, in the asme way, that there is people who dont look for outside approval. I do realize there is a pretty striking contradiction though in both theory and scientific discourse as to this point around pathological narcissism, so who knows.

Also, based on the results on personality inventory Jasmer posted, I see that your CNPD wasn't picked up by a test (Kimera's was, though, Jasmer's too), can this test be used at all to detect CNPD or are BPD traits that potentially mimick CNPD used to diagnose CNPD too?

No it can't. Its questions are based on the DSM, so no subforms would be found. Its funny though that I didnt even score for SPD, while the MMPI scored me skyhigh on schizophrenia spectrum. I think these tests are of limited value. There is the hypersensitive narcissism scale of course but I have never found an article about how to score it; I read somewhere you need the "highscore" to be classified as HSNPD but I couldnt find any info on where the thing draws the line at all.
Also you ignored my last question about therapy. Nothing going on there?

i did it now.i don't remember what i used to have in the past .and i am a non disordered. but i do score high only on bpd and avpd but not enough to have it. you are impulsive ? this is where i don't score to have it.i am not hostile and impulsive or something. i have the emotional part but not the behavior enough.
maybe the spd is similar with my avoidance ,hides the behaviors i am thinking

you are impulsive ?

Me? No I'm extremely controlled. Last therapy session I hallucinated f.e. and I was like "Ok now I'm hallucinating in this and that way" and we went on with the session like normal.

julllia wrote:i did it now.i don't remember what i used to have in the past .and i am a non disordered. but i do score high only on bpd and avpd but not enough to have it. you are impulsive ? this is where i don't score to have it.i am not hostile and impulsive or something. i have the emotional part but not the behavior enough.
maybe the spd is similar with my avoidance ,hides the behaviors i am thinking

I scored high on disinhibiton - irresponsibility, distractability, impulsivity, as well as "negative affect" - emotional lability, anxiousness; but all these could be explained via ADHD(pretty high chances of something on bipolar disorder spectrum too) that I suspect I might be having, scoring unusually high on that neurodiversity test only confirmed my doubts. But no way could this test have picked up on my potential narcissism as I don't possess any of those antagonism traits (grandiosity, manipulativeness, deceitfulness) and neither do all coverts..

I don't know about hostility lol but I am pretty impulsive. I thought you might score high on BPD too.

Also you ignored my last question about therapy. Nothing going on there?

Can't escape your perceptiveness..
I answered it indirectly here:

I think this topic can now be closed, though, it has helped me a lot in terms of narrowing it down and leading me in right direction, I now need to write it all down and discuss it with my therapist.

..meaning to say I haven't brought any of this up, but am planning to.

Me? No I'm extremely controlled. Last therapy session I hallucinated f.e. and I was like "Ok now I'm hallucinating in this and that way" and we went on with the session like normal.

I am the opposite of controlled.

shanzeek wrote:

everybody lies to some degree, it's really just a case of how honest they are with themselves about lying.

You're right here. "I never lie" would be a lie. I avoided telling the truth to my parents about certain (mostly university related) things, sometimes to spare them, other times for selfish reasons. What I wanted to say is probably what you mentioned below - avoiding to lie about things that would have any impact at all on a person. I just keep in mind how the smallest even most insignificant lie might destroy the trust I feel towards someone, so I try to avoid doing it to another person whenever possible.

I don't do 'trust' for the most part, for me trust (with a few exceptions) is another word for how well I can predict you. So for me that risk doesn't really exist, it's simply the change from Covert threat to overt threat.

Mostly because I'm a compulsive I tell the truth, or the truth that matters (which is to say that which has a direct impact on anyone's life). I'm not the person you want to ask the opinion of regarding your new haircut. If not dissociated I may give you a sympathetic response but ultimately it will be honest. If dissociated it might be just a flat yes, no, or it looks like a ducks ass.

The time when I might lie is if someone asks me what I had for breakfast I might say that I had a grapefruit rather than telling them the honest truth that I was having trouble with nausea and could only force down some orange juice.

I don't really have a concept of white lies, it seems like a kind of moral and intellectual cowardice to me. Ultimately like many survivors is pushed I'll do whatever I have to to get the job done.

How do you feel about having all these altering personas though? Does it bother you or do you accept it for what it is or something third?

I wrote a long answer to this yesterday but it was something of a ramble and going extremely off-topic (not that I'm not usually anyway).

The personality states realistically tend to relate to how bad the emotional dissociation, hypervigilence & depression, sensory overstimulation are. They're like the presets on a musical equalizer, it's all the same tune but can sound radically different. It differs from BPD who in the same example would be playing a different tune. Ultimately it's a form of emotional dysregulation and as such is a pain in the ass, it's my the trait which I hate the most. Thankfully I'm not really impulsive for obvious reasons.

I have some dissociative identity issues so I might be inclined to spend hours at a time imagining my life as a lorry driver for instance. I tell tales to myself more than anyone else.

I'm a bit confused whether this is to be taken literally or as some kind of a metaphor. Can you explain it a bit further?

Maladaptive Daydreaming, like the schizoids I have a complex internal fantasy world (several in fact) which I can dissociate into. It's just a trauma defence mechanism.

The PID-5 doesn't do much for me either. I hit several of the things in BPD, AvPD, 1 in AsPD (hostility). But because I score very low for risk-taking and impulsivity it doesn't flag me for anything.

In my experience the mmpi is a much better self test, that flagged most of my problems.

I am the opposite of controlled.

Has this always been the case? I mean is it innate?

Just thinking about it I should also say I'm using the term dissociative personality state very loosely here. Dissociative because they relate to personality change with levels of dissociative symptoms which cause a temperament shift. They are not personality states in the DID sense of the word.

^and this unfortunately is compulsive behaviour

["shanzeek"]When I first came here, I suspected having covert narcissistic traits, but I quickly dismissed it when realizing that, unlike many others who wrote about their experiences, I'm still able to feel guilt, positive emotions, compassion, empathy, occasional genuine happiness, I do not seek supply, am not envious nor do I lie or exploit other. i also like people in general and enjoy listening to them, but sometimes feel overwhelmed by their emotional baggage. (I was told I use emotional blackmail and passive aggression)

I'm misanthropic and the search for supply consumes my life. I have surges of envy for youth, good looks, strength, skill, wealth and power. See below on my emotions.

..but after reading excerpts from Klein's book as well as this - https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/874f/924ea2922255ab33981a84945c85fc2d9376.pdf

Some of this, the covert narcissism description hits the nail on the head and describes me to a T. Most of the rest sounded like so much mumbo jumbo, and I'm non-committal about it.

..I realized none of those traits I possess were crucial for dismissing CNPD, and a lot of what's written here is relatable to my personality and the way I'm experiencing the world.
I was separated from my parents from age 1,5-5 and was raised by a person who might be a covert narcissist, I never before took this into consideration when thinking about primary caregiver. My father is a grandiose narcissist, though.
I realize now that what I considered a dreaminess of my character might be CNPD-related fantasies and distorted view of reality. A lot of my traits I was connecting to anxiety, depression, bipolar or BPD, but I now realize it could all have easily been misinterpreted and actually fit the description of closet narcissism.

I'm not going to drag my parents through the mud to justify my problems. Most of the "abuse" I experienced was from teachers in the public school system anyway.

For those of you diagnosed with (or suspecting of having) CNPD, I have few questions:

- how do you score on empathy tests (what test?)

I printed out an empathy test a while ago and I'm working on completing it. I like to do these on paper before I fill them out on-line. I find these kinds of tests boring, tedious, of limited relevance to my inner life, leading, loaded, biased, clueless, vague and difficult to answer, so I seldom bother to take them. If I finish this one, maybe I'll get back to you.

- are you able to feel guilt?

I feel guilt often and feel it strongly. Mostly toward family and friends I tend to avoid and neglect, and whom I suspect are hurt by my aloofness.

- do you follow a certain moral code?

Yes. Absolutely. I'm a vegan and a libertarian. I'm very interested in ethical philosophy and consider myself a very principled person.

- do you feel positive emotions?

I feel very little positive emotion. I used to feel positive emotions more when I was younger, but since about age 50, 53, they've pretty much drained away. Hope, excitement, wonder, joy....they're pretty much nonexistent now as life's beaten me down. The closest thing I have to a positive emotion is occasional mild interest or enjoyment of some activities---reading, writing, watching movies and TV shows, running....it's more a contentment, not happiness, but maybe you could call it "schizoid happiness".

- would you describe yourself as emotional?

I'm not touchy-feely or histrionic, but I do have feelings of deep sadness, longing and painful nostalgia for what could have been in my life, but never was. I put on a "warm and friendly facade" when I'm out and about, but when I'm not doing that, and I'm not feeling distraught or anxious, I'm emotionally dead.

- do you care about others?

I care about my two brothers, but most of my other family I feel mainly guilt about, and probably some empathy for their hurt in being "pushed away" by me. I have some concern for the well-being of strangers and donate money to help the needy and all that, but I'm also misanthropic and detached.

- how do others perceive you?

Of course I can't know, but depending on who they are:
Kind, pleasant, cheerful, quiet, introverted...
or (by my family)
Disturbed, mentally ill, schizophrenic, angry, difficult, troubled....

- what were your relationships like?

Stormy, sulky, obsessive, dominating, irritable...

- how did you come to realize you have CNPD?

I don't claim to have CNPD. I don't believe in psychology as a science as much as most members here seem to. To me it's just a theory, or a variety of theories. I believe I fit descriptions I've read and heard on video very closely and that as a theory it has utility in exploring and working on my existential anxiety, melancholy, depression, whatever. I don't grovel to academia, professionals or know-it-alls. I reserve the right to use their concepts and terms in expressing, discussing and exploring my inner problems, even though I'm non-committal toward their ultimate truth-value or validity.

- are you able to unbiasely perceive yourself?

[/quote]

. in what way is your perception of reality distorted?

I believe I have a very high level of self-awareness. I sometimes worry that I may not look as young or as good as I want to, for supply. (My narcissism problem is mainly somatic.)

- how do you feel about having CNPD?

I'd prefer to just call my dynamic "covert narcissism", and it may be sub-clinical. CN negatively impacts my life because it involves at its core an obsession with my looks, my physical appearance, something as I age, I can't control. It's not healthy. It brings me grief. I don't really care about what society or psychologists or mental health professionals think of CN. I only want to overcome it for my own reasons, my own well-being and optimal functioning.

- are you prone to living in denial?

Yes. I've been in denial about getting older for a long time. I thought I was somehow special, above the common heard, almost supernatural, and would not age. I can't ignore the evidence that this is a fantasy, but I'm still not totally out of this denial.

My personal impression of you is that you're too nice and mild to be a narcissist. My feelings of superiority and grandiose fantasies are always with me. If somebody doesn't have these, they don't seem very narcissistic to me. And people who are worried about being a narcissist, per se, because they feel it's intrinsically bad, I also doubt are. But this is just my personal opinion. I don't pretend it's scientific (not that I particularly care.)

^thank you that is very helpfull.

i relate so much with the positive emotions and how you describe that part.
actually i can feel too much from art but not much in real life.
but i don't relate with the obsession about supply nor envy. i am not misanthropic in that sense.
but i do not trust people so i want to be as egotistical as them.
strange that i do not feel quilt that much. i mean when i feel it i try to fix the problem because it makes me sad. but a lot of times i feel if i hurt someone they deserved it or i consciously think i should act egotistal.

i don't feel nostalgia of what could have been at all. my coping mechanism is letting go of everything emotionally literally. i am the opposite of nostalgia where i hate it and want nothing.or i want only something new.i do feel deep sadness in general.

i also agree that these all are labels and the point is just to help you get better and impove your life and not label yourself just for the sake of labeling.
i think she is too nice and mild to be a narcissist too. but she does seem unhealthilly obsessing for the love of a narcissist.
i saw law and order last episode (was shocking) and and one sister was jealous that she didn't get abused as a child from her father ,while her sister was abused. she was so jealous and wanted the abuse.she end up killing a guy that looked like her father.

*****
The spd combination of @akuma might make it different.
I am curious about the hallucinations.
i feel controlled too to be honest. that annoys me .

Everything is so similar.they confuse often bpd with bipolar too. I don't know well about ADHD. How is it ,makes you more energetic? It does look similar with the other 2 in impulsivness.
I score moderate on disinhibition and high on detachment and negative affect.. I mean it makes me more superficially high functioning but it sucks in relationships.this is why i think i do not have bpd because i am not as dramatic and impulsive in comparison.but i do not fear critisism nor judgement as much avoidants,i actually would enjoy screaming or intensity and expessing emotions.


i feel like coverts are the ones who act like your friend and then are happy when you are hurting.aren't they.@shazneek why you think they are not?
I split on people but i do not have that envy nor anger nor hate. But i might lose it for a minute if i am overwhelmed .But i see narcissists obsess more .After 5 minutes i forgot why i was angry. but because i don't trust them it makes me lose empathy and become egotistical.i feel most nons are anyway very egotistical but do not have problems in relationships like me.
to not be able to trust anyone at all never like me ,is very upsetting and annoying.

The time when I might lie is if someone asks me what I had for breakfast I might say that I had a grapefruit rather than telling them the honest truth that I was having trouble with nausea and could only force down some orange juice.

Horrible.
What about when you're at fault or make a mistake? Do you own up to it or would you cover it up with dishonesty? (I'm asking because you said you're prone to lying about parts of yourselves you can't deal with at the moment, but never about things that have direct impact on others - this kind of fits both categories)

I just imagined what it would feel like not trusting a single person I know, and perceiving threats everywhere I go, always looking behind my back and never feeling "safe" (is this exaggerated? it's at least how I picture it in my head)...it doesn't sound like a pleasant life.

I wrote a long answer to this yesterday but it was something of a ramble and going extremely off-topic (not that I'm not usually anyway).

This stopped being solely "my" thread, I don't mind sharing it. Feel free to share it if you still have it saved, I wouldn't ask if I wasn't interested to hear it.

Maladaptive Daydreaming, like the schizoids I have a complex internal fantasy world (several in fact) which I can dissociate into. It's just a trauma defence mechanism.

I did hear about this, a close friend was describing what she does in free time and it seemed slightly out of the ordinary lol so I googled it and found this. She hasn't suffered any trauma as far as I know, it's just a coping mechanism for dealing with reality to her.
This might come as insensitive, but I actually wouldn't mind having this ability (especially in relation to what I'm studying), as long as it's under control and not interfering with your everyday life. I do have this ability, partially, but it doesn't come close to what my friend described.
Btw, I'm kinda confused to how someone with such complex inner world and imagination could possibly lack creativity? Were you being completely honest with yourself when saying this?

I hit several of the things in BPD, AvPD, 1 in AsPD (hostility).

The need to clarify which trait exactly in terms of ASPD made me smile.

^and this unfortunately is compulsive behaviour

Got it.

In my experience the mmpi is a much better self test, that flagged most of my problems.

Sounds like something I should look up. Just have to first find out what it is exactly, as I've never heard about it lol.

Has this always been the case? I mean is it innate?

I'm honestly not sure. I don't remember being that impulsive at younger age, but then again, I was mostly on some kind of hypervigilant auto-pilot while living with my father, impulsivity might have started showing at later time, but it also might have been present all along, just suppressed. :don't know: