Do empaths have empathy when it counts?

by **Quoth** » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:53 pm

shanzeek wrote:
Quoth wrote:So stop using them then

Take a look at your comments about art and being surrounded by artistic friends then compare to akuma's descriptions of the the mechanics of CNPD if you think it's only in a relationship.

So, should I stop using labels or should I adopt the one you're offering here?

No need for eye-rolling, I'm aware I possess some narcissistic traits, I'm just confused and trying to figure things out.

Sorry that was a little sharp, I meant that the emotional causes of codependency run deeper than just relationships. For the record I don't think you have NPD of any stripe (which is also true of some of the "narcs" here) but narcissism is a scale running from normality to disorder on which we all sit to some degree and codependents in rl with pwNPD tend to sit closer to the line.

In some of the darker cases codependents can be the enablers of the physical and sexual abuse of their own children, which is not to say that applies to you anymore than the fact that many people with EPCACE become abusers applies to me. My point really was to demonstrate that like anything else there is a soft end and an extreme end.

As for empathy, what we're really talking about here is a sensory issue specifically one relating to sensory nuance. Accepting that there are some neurophysiological issues in play in my case, but the extreme end of that spectrum is no more or less maladaptive than their PD counterparts. In reality the most useful people are those who sit a little way onto the spectrum, much in the same way that a little bit of narcissism is actually healthier than those without. ''Empath" though is a term a bit like "pro-social psychopathy" in that it wants the pros without the horrific downsides. The_essentials was actually right on that one, at the extreme end people either live their lives in a suit of psychological armour or they withdraw from the world, either of which is alienating.

-- Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:59 pm --

julllia wrote:i like his youtube channel

at 20:22
https://youtu.be/YtSJUkP_yic?t=20m22s

at 22:23
https://youtu.be/YtSJUkP_yic?t=22m23s

-- Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:41 pm --

codependents sacrifice others and themselves for the narcissist.and they like it. they are not healthy individuals

I enjoyed the other dude with his empathy pie more. :lol:

I've watched some of Ross Rosenberg's stuff and while I think he's another unqualified parasite making money off people with psychiatric disorders, he isn't wrong here. Have you seen some of his stuff on BPD? it's a bit on the harsh side

- the false self defends against a range of painful affects - including anxiety, depression, panic, rage, guilt, helplessness, hopelessness, and emptiness and void - which are known collectivelly as the abandonment depression- Everyone with the disorder of the self experiences (or rather, defends against experiencing) each of this painful feelings to some degree

- where the borderline struggles to find a way to feel connected to the object, the narcissist feels fused with the object, he experiences no separation between himself and the object. His thoughts, needs and feelings are, he believes, identical to those of the object and furthermore must be. Masterson has explicated this experience of fusion in terms of like-mindedness: The narcissist expects the other to be on the same page, so to speak, as he is with regard to feelings, perceptions and agendas, in other words he expects the object to feel the same way, perceive and understand reality in the same fashion, and share the same concerns, with the same sense of urgency and priority. Only the experience of "perfect mirroring" or matching of his beliefs, concerns, and needs will support this defense

- narcissistic patient experiences abandonment depression as the self fragmenting or falling apart

- the patient's clinical picture looks borderline (depression, difficulty with self-assertion, apparent clinging in relationships, difficulties with anger, an inadequate sense of self, denial of destructive behaviour)

- there is an emotional investment in the omnipotent object, rather than in the grandiose self. While the exhibitionistic narcissist seems impervious to the object, the closet narcissist is exquisitely dependent on and vulnerable to the object

- rather than seeking mirroring of the grandiosity by others, the child idealizes others still seeking "one-mindedness" but in this case by "basking in the glow" of the idealized object

- the abandonment depression is precipitated in the closet narcissist either by efforts at self-activation or by failures in the ability to idealize the other and so bask in the reflected glow

key area of differentiation between BPD/CNPD:
- there is a qualitative difference between idealizing and clinging. The bpd patient who is clinging will accept a few words of approval, whereas the closet narcissist seeks perfect admiration all the time
- the closet narcissist's depression is marked by feelings of humiliation and shame and of the self falling apart
- "it is so painful for you to focus on yourself that you turn to me in order to defend against, or soothe, the pain"
- developmental history:" ..essentially, this meant to be on call" for the father, he remembered most vividly his mother telling the children not to disturb their father and to obey him.."
- the individual with a narcissistic disorder of the self fails to appreciate (in any way other than intellectually) that others are indeed distinct-having needs, wishes, thoughts and feelings separate from his own
- this refers to the ability to identify one's genuine wishes and to take autonomous action both to express those wishes in the world, and to defend them when under attack, the ability to self-activate in individuals with disorders of the self, owing to the child's having been either punished for attempts at genuine self-activation or /

I realize this is how I was describing my previous relationship, and relevance of art, or of my boyfriend being from the same "world". I never thought there's anything strange about that. If I hadn't actually written it down myself in that thread, I don't think anyone would be able to persuade me the above described is the dynamic in my relationships. The close resemblance to BPD also makes sense and explains the confusion..
I still hope this can mean I only have traits rather than a personality disorder. CNPD was the first thing I (superficially) checked when I first got here, I just fear that I might have blocked the thoughts of having it because I don't want to have it..my reaction to reading Akuma's link is anything but a healthy one.

by **freyja** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:31 am

My guess is that the 'nons' who post on this forum are not a representative sample of emotionally healthy empaths so generalizing from personal experience is bound to lead to erroneous conclusions by them and pwNPD are not going to be able to judge affective empathy since that tends to be in short supply.

Notwithstanding all that I'm in the corner of people who have posted to the effect that co-dependents and others involved in voluntary long term relationships with pwNPD are, as a whole, intensely narcissistic people themselves.

by **Arthur** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:57 am

Do you guys agree that people with NPD can never feel empathy or be supportive of someone who is going through a hard time? That seems rather extreme and I disagree with that.
In fact, I'd say that one of the ways that I managed to become less NPD and grow as a person is by having the opportunity to care for other people.

I'm also skeptical that empathy is necessarily enabling a narcissist and a bad thing.
I thought that a lack of empathy was one of the things that caused NPD. For example a parent dismissing or invalidating a child's feelings (esp feelings of shame, worthlessness etc).

by **MalvaBlue** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:08 am

Nah enabling is enabling. Empathy within boundaries is good.

by **1PolarBear** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:35 pm

Brutus in the play Julius Ceasar, is a good empathic character.
http://www.markedbyteachers.com/gcse/en ... ar-3.html#

Whether you could count on him depends on the side of the knife you are on.

by **shanzeek** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:42 pm

OneRinger wrote:Brutus in the play Julius Ceasar, is a good empathic character.
http://www.markedbyteachers.com/gcse/en ... ar-3.html#

Whether you could count on him depends on the side of the knife you are on.

This comment (with its supporting documentation :lol:

) nails it.

by **Pangloss** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:40 pm

Quoth wrote:
Pangloss here is just idealising her own child and devaluing someone else's. Also labelling a child as a narc...really....

Curious that once again the PDs show greater understanding than the self titled "empaths"

This is absurd, there is nothing to idealize here, I was debunking another poster's claim that there are no empaths. It was a description of a natural born empath who is at one extreme of the spectrum. He isn't a co-dependent, however, he possesses traits that are consistent with being an extreme empath. This in itself isn't healthy. It isn't normal, and it doesn't make him an "angel", there's no such thing. He has other issues related to other aspects of his personality which I'm not going into as this has nothing to do with the OP.

I have witnessed his friendship with his former best friend for 1.5 years and have come to my own conclusion about the other's narcissistic traits, especially N Rage, N Injury, and Projection. It doesn't make him a pwNPD. It means that he thinks, behaves and acts in ways consistent with someone who is further on the narcissistic spectrum. It was a very difficult and hurtful friendship for my son, yet he stuck with this friend, forgiving and forgetting, until they went to separate classes and he found a new good friend. :shock:

It was something I find incomprehensible as a few other kids whom former best friend tried to get close lasted a few weeks before angrily distancing themselves, according to my son's account. My observations are my own, and by no means reflect what my son thought or felt. He is intelligent enough to learn his own lessons.

Take or leave the anecdote of the dynamic I'm sharing, it might interest some, it might mean nothing to others. It was meant first of all to debunk the post that declares empaths do not exist, and that they are mirror-narcissistic "co-dependents". :roll:

In the end, it's difficult to exit one's filter - it is futile to even begin to bring views from the outside into a fiercely protected bubble. One can make endless assumptions from within the echo chamber in self-perpetuating cycles about "empaths", "nons", "co-dependents" and sundry others who are "worse" than...(fill in appropriate PD).

With that I exit this chamber. :waves:

by **Pangloss** » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:18 pm

Another thing I need to point out is that the friendship was also detrimental to the other boy's growth and development because he didn't receive the right push-back from my empath son. My son just got hurt and didn't know how to react, he was unable to bring himself to exact revenge, he didn't know how to leave his best friend for his own sake, etc. He didn't need this friend like a "co-dependent", he just couldn't bring himself to do anything he thought might hurt him. That is an empath's "sickness". In fact, with his peers' aggressive push back, clear and unambiguous boundaries, the other boy has learned to curb certain traits, for his own good, to get along better with the others. The split ended better for all involved.

by **Quoth** » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:30 am

Sure you did...

First you establish your son and his "credentials".

Pangloss wrote:I beg to differ. My son, for example, is an empath from a very young age. He absolutely cannot tolerate any killing, even small insects. He would fight off kids he saw stomping on spiders or centipedes. I can't kill the ants crawling around the apartment without upsetting him. When he made the association between meat and animals from about age 5, he refused to eat any identifiable animal parts, including fish or chicken. I had to give him meat in a form that he didn't recognize, eg steak, sausage. He cries when he watches a sad or moving film. He likes giving change to the homeless.

You present evidence of behaviour relatively common in small children and use it to demonstrate that your son has magical powers. In much the same way as the narcissistic parent you've taken minor events (e.g. Slightly above average reading ability) and blown it out of proportion (e.g. Evidence of genius). You could just have said he was highly sensitive like 20% of the rest of the population, which frankly would have been believable.

Next you create a parable of your own relationship with a narcissist.

Pangloss wrote:He became best friends with a narcissistic boy and really suffered, eg he did many things against his own wishes to accommodate this friend, he was the punching bag for anything that went wrong.

I tried talking to the similarly narcissistic mom of his friend but she only took offense and devalued my son.

He finally distanced himself after a year when they went to separate classes and is now really happy with his current best friend, an intelligent, kind and good hearted boy whom I suspect is also empathetic.

Meanwhile, his ex best friend tried to find other best friends but they lasted at most a month - normal kids just don't like/get along with self-centred kids. My son still hangs out with this ex best friend, but he leaves whenever he misbehaves. He understands and appreciates the true friendship he has with his current best friend, they are really happy hanging out together and confide 100% in eachother, support each other, etc.

You set up two sides, the good empath boy and his empath mother on one and the narcissistic child and his narcissistic mother on the other. The rather obvious devaluation is projected on the other mother.

In the second half there is a moral lesson as to the fate of bad people.

Finally you reassert the claim and use it to validate your own identity

So it is completely untrue that empaths do not exist. My son is definitely one by nature/nurture, and he tolerated abusive behavior from a narcissistic friend who "chose" him, longer than many normal kids would, and too long for his own good. He now understands the difference between a balanced 2-way friendship and a 1-way friendship.

Notice the similarity between the description of his behaviour and your attempt to validate your own co-dependent behaviour.

Pangloss wrote:As an empath, [...]
The more narcissistic persons I have encountered usually possess a strong sense of entitlement. Those around them are only as good as what they can provide for them. They are not aware that relationships are a 2-way endeavor, it's all taking on one end, and when the nons (including empaths) start to feel "depleted" they usually begin to distance themselves. The empaths are the ones who stick around too long for their own good.

But you're quite right, others may read it differently.

Pangloss wrote:Take or leave the anecdote of the dynamic I'm sharing, it might interest some, it might mean nothing to others. It was meant first of all to debunk the post that declares empaths do not exist, and that they are mirror-narcissistic "co-dependents".

In the end, it's difficult to exit one's filter - it is futile to even begin to bring views from the outside into a fiercely protected bubble. One can make endless assumptions from within the echo chamber in self-perpetuating cycles about "empaths", "nons", "co-dependents" and sundry others who are "worse" than...(fill in appropriate PD).

It always amuses me that you think this always has to do with some sort of validation of narcissists or hatred of co-dependents, just as you did with C-PTSD. Rather than that being treated for both issues with SPS and being, what for the sake of brevity we will call, a torture survivor, gives me significant insight into both issues. Certainly enough to recognise when someone is urinating on my foot and calling it evidence of precipitation.

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