Reaching out

I know this may be a silly place to post but I'm having a hard time and I could use some advice or reassurance. I guess this post would be targeted to people that have hope in recovery.

So ive been up for like 3 days and the the past 2 weeks I haven't been sleeping much. It's been great I feel like I've been doing some real work in recovery but here is the problem.

I ran into this website http://gettinbetter.com/dance.html
which describes in detail the ###$ up relationship "dance" between NPDS and BPDs
the whole thing pretty much hits really hard because of how much I relate to it.

So I guess right now I'm feeling the role that i need to help this person outside of me, my ex, by kind of helping her at least get some awareness and give her some resources that I have to kind of help her get ouf of feeling like $#%^. I know she wants to get better, she has motivation to not feel so #######5 any more she is raising a kid and I know the thought of making sure her kid is ok would fuel her recovery if she is able to

get awareness
avoid the pitfalls of online narratives painting b clusters as demons.
and get support

im just so wrapped up into fantasizing about helping her right now and I know its BS because its taking away from my own kind of inner self-esteem building and work I've been doing. Its frustrating because there is this restraining order in place and its truly ironic that for the first time I could really help this girl, something Ive been wanting to do for a long long time.

I'm heartbroken. I feel like I'm a very expressive and detailed email away from helping this girl (I know this girl I know how to reach her and kind of breach her defences) but also a step away from

a) jail for violating a restraining order (not cool, ###$ jail)
b) getting sucked back into my old ways with her with the pretense of helping her but ultimatley starving myself of my own needs and sense of self.

so i just feel so split because I feel like I can finally do a little bit that might provide real meaningful progress and health to this girl but I can't because this ######6 restraining order.

if youre wondering about the restraining order, not that it matters, but it was nothing really bad especially when put into the context of the abuse we've suffered at each others hands. anyway thanks for listening I apologize if any of this is unclear I'm quite tired.

im just so wrapped up into fantasizing about helping her right now and I know its BS because its taking away from my own kind of inner self-esteem building and work I've been doing.

Imagining yourself as a savior is easier than accepting you need help yourself. Every type of obsession is a diversion tactic like that, there is a affect you dont want to feel -> obsess about different thing -> voila no more troubles.
Maybe the amount of energy you put into this diversion should give you an idea how badly you should actually seek assistance from a professional.

Akuma wrote:

im just so wrapped up into fantasizing about helping her right now and I know its BS because its taking away from my own kind of inner self-esteem building and work I've been doing.

Imagining yourself as a savior is easier than accepting you need help yourself. Every type of obsession is a diversion tactic like that, there is a affect you dont want to feel -> obsess about different thing -> voila no more troubles.
Maybe the amount of energy you put into this diversion should give you an idea how badly you should actually seek assistance from a professional.

thanks for posting that helps. I was raised to be the "savior" I was always taking care of my "sick" narcissitic dad in fact I wanted to be a doctor so I could help him so its very integrated into my core. I don't have any money for therapy or seeing somebody so right now books and forums is what I have. You're right this obsessing is not helping it's good to hear that from somebody else. I guess part of this was rooted in really caring and wanting to reach out to this person just because, it sucks that people have to feel #######5 but ... its ultimately rooted in guilt i have and its a desire to cover that up. its ######6 rough. this is exactly what happend when I broke through the first time ( I feel like I am remembering a lot of things i realized when i first became self aware) specifically i had this feeling that if I healed myself she wouldn't be interested in my anymore and i really couldn't let go of it matter of fact the thing that spurred this whole second bout of trying is my learning about codependence and kind of finally letting her go. its BS because ive done this exact same thing. gain awareness, help myself, run back to her only to be viciously annihilated by her tactics (not trying to color her evil, just calling a spade a spade)
bahhhh im running in circles i can't stop. thanks for the reply.

-- Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:19 am --

I'm starting to calm down as I accept the truth and starting to feel more like the "me" ive been working on.
thanks again dude

If she is indeed has BPD, you can't "save her". The best thing the people in my life have done for me is to be there. They've loved me, through the ups and downs, and haven't left me. They've shown me that they will not abandon me, even though they know I'm fighting a life long battle. I hate when people try to fix me. Communication and others being expressive always helped. Especially in writing. It gave me time to really absorb it.

The only way an NPD/BPD relationship of any kind will work is if the NPD doesn't trigger the BPD's abandonment fears. Just letting her know that you'll really be there will help immensely. Those were the times I was happiest and didn't feel disordered or unhappy with my life. Knowing that I wasn't worthless and that he loved me even though I was broken was very healing. It was the closest thing to feeling he loved me how I loved him.

If a pwBPD trusts that you won't abandon them, they will open up to you. I wanted to talk and work through our issues together, with my ex. It just didn't work out. Being cluster B's would have created an environment for honesty and the potential for healing with someone you love.

-- Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:29 pm --

b) getting sucked back into my old ways with her with the pretense of helping her but ultimatley starving myself of my own needs and sense of self.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

beesknees wrote:The only way an NPD/BPD relationship of any kind will work is if the NPD doesn't trigger the BPD's abandonment fears. Just letting her know that you'll really be there will help immensely. Those were the times I was happiest and didn't feel disordered or unhappy with my life. Knowing that I wasn't worthless and that he loved me even though I was broken was very healing. It was the closest thing to feeling he loved me how I loved him.

It is literally a disordered relationship. It will never work unless the BPD desires total lack of choice caused by an extreme controlling behaviour and jealousy.

Midwinter wrote:
It is literally a disordered relationship. It will never work unless the BPD desires total lack of choice caused by an extreme controlling behaviour and jealousy.

It is a disordered relationship, I agree. I don't desire those things, but it is the dynamic I grew up in. I love my ex and my dad, both have NPD. I won't choose not to have relationships with them just because our relationships are disordered. I love them through it.

Yeah sure I'll elaborate. My relationship with her was always, among other things, based on the idea that she was hurting and I wasn't hurting (because I am a narcissist, I am so strong I don't need help or have needs) and I had value because here I was this strong person for her to lean on. It's really ###$ up. She thought I could solve all her problems. I did too. I recognize now that I can't help her, she can only help herself. It's something I've been reflecting on a bit, but mostly I understand that within the context of understanding how critical it is to help myself.

Notwithstanding this clarity, I feel some kind of compassion. Sympathy, hell I'll take it a stretch and say I might even be empathizing. Maybe not. I was doing some reading about how Shame and the inability to kind of tolerate or process shame in a healthy way in some ways is a core feature or core wound of the disorder. It feeds into a shame-based identity or feelings of worthlessness that quickly and desperately need to be covered up with narcissism. I also realized lately that I do have feelings of abandonment. I linked them this kind of tipping point in my childhood where I stopped trusting my parents and began feeling truly isolated. In fact I've had specific dreams about the emotions pertaining to that event, and I've always remained distinct memories of what was going through my mind through that time. Basically I felt like I could no longer trust my parents and I had no safe place or person to confide in. My only friend in the face of otherwise insane isolation and loneliness centred around feelings of worthlessness and toxic shame was the illusion that I was strong.

So i've read that it is the difference in the way that you kind of deal with those feelings that separates NPD from BPD at least with some respects. Same pain. Different strategies. Core feelings of worthlessness. Isolation. Loneliness.

Anyway so I've been reading about how to kind of identify and stop reinforcing toxic shame and understanding the benefits of healthy shame. I have to say it has really been helpful. It's of course not the only thing I don't really want to get into it some of it is quite personal.

Long story short I'm feeling like this feeling of wanting to help her starts off in a good place, but easily gets hijacked by romantic fantasies. When im feeling clear headed and I have the mindset of

"I want to help you but I know you ultimately only help yourself. (Not saying support is worthless). I'm also cognizant of my own need to continue supporting myself. So long as my own progress isnt thwarted by assisting you, I think I would actually love to be there for you."

eventually ill recognize how all of this hurts her intense fear of abandonment and I'll want to kind of "rescue" her from that by overcompensating and being "more" than i actually am. The truth is I I don't think It's responsible for me to be in a relationship right now. Like what if I hurt her again. (I've hurt her very badly) what if she hurts ME? Again not trying to demonize or say anything bad about NPD but I have seen some pretty hurtful tactics when she has basically created the conditions for a breakup because she is so afraid of being left.

So I don't want to give her false hope that we can be together, frankly I'm not willing to compromise my god damned health that I feel like im finally starting to get a ######6 grip on. anyway.

What I really feel like I would do if I could is just help her through the process of awareness and navigating the stigma safely it was such an impediment to my own progress. Shes a truth-seeker I have a feeling with the right info she can start helping herself. Shes just in the dark right now of her own condition. in the dark about the ######6 light that is out there available to her. maybe im being overly optimistic about both our prospects for recovery. I truly don't believe so. It's rough $#%^ but I know I'm making progress.

-- Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:45 am --

Sorry realizing I didn't answer your question.
When I overcompensate with narcissism it shuts the door to any progress.
You can't improve if you are already perfect.

So if I am overcompensating so I can feel like I can help her, feel valuable and strong in the face of my truth weakness and powerlessness. Feel like I can cure her with my love and understanding. Feel strong.

This takes away from my own self esteem because Its hollow and fake. It is the fear of facing the truth. That I am small and weak, which is actually a strength if I can face it. Or the beginning of strength. It takes away from my progress because believing you are already perfect is an impediment to learning and progress.

also I think one of the main reasons that her fear of loneliness is so hard (for me) to bear is that I am covering up my loneliness already by feeling strong. I have a desire to cure her loneliness yet paradoxically because i am not able to face my own (loneliness) I have no true help for her because I cannot even truly be intimate. (obviously not how I am feeling now, but very afraid of all this going down)

A slightly interesting aspect of this thread is that, unlike in other threads, there is an obvious difference here between the OPs perception of that little girl who needs help and love and him being able to give that to her, and the real person who has apparently issued a restraining order, so holds upa big "stay the ###$ away" sign and wants nothing to do with him, or is even afraid of him.
Whats striking is that both beesknees (so basically the pwBPD side) and BeauReal (so the - xNPD? side?) are ignorign this and acting like this no big deal and both go on fantasizing about very specific situations where there is cure and healing through love and so on - so about very borderline concepts which dont exist in reality. I hope its not too offensive if I say this, but it's been a while since I have seen this quality of fleeing into fantasy on the forum.
I'm just throwing this out there, because I think its weird that its not noticed.

Sorry wanted to clarify. I'm afraid of her hurting me so much because I recognize it could trigger some pretty pointless defence mechanisms (narcissistic rage) which is detrimental to both of us.
So i recognize I am not yet comfortable enough in vulnerability to effectively help another person.

Yes I recognize it is a fantasy, and I disagree. I am able to see her as she is ( to a relative extent) I recognize the BASE of her Actions are rooted in pain. I recognize that same pain in me. Like I said it's more like an original feeling of kind of brotherhood for this person who suffers so much like me, has suffered so much with me.
So i recognize the actions she displays are indicitive of a hurt person. They are one in the same they are not disconnected. I also happen to know this individual. Despite our difficulties we occasionally did connect, even if it was just in identifying how #######5 we felt. There is a lot to this that is just me trying to heal the pain from this relationship. Like I said I'm starting to recognize more and more between the "hijacked' fantasies and a authentic desire to help rooted in compassion.

So to clarify there are two distinct things going on.
1) A desire to connect interpersonally based on authentic feelings
2)A susceptibility to old thinking patterns. and a strong urge to get the insane dopamine fix of our "love dance" I am so intimately acquainted with

I wouldn't describe myself as an EX NPD
I still fall back all the time ( as you can clearly see from this post)
The goal is to build, heal, to a point where these primitive defences are all but obsolete.

Thanks to everybody that responded

just wanted to do a bit of an update while I've got a clear heart and head.

there is no cure for NPD
you need to get out of that mindset if you are going to heal
cure implies sickness, which is too related to the toxic shame. hits all the bad feels.
instead there is a struggle, a journey, towards health.

rooted initially in envy of other people's healthy lifes relationships etc
and the recognition that the status quo is not satisfying.

thats why a classc narc can't admit they are narcissist. if they got their supply locked down they are straight.
a "covert" narc isnt. which is why I am inclined to think it's these individuals that can be reached.

although those last two points are just my own speculation, not rooted in anything i have found anywhere else.

Also nobody is "a narcissist'
you can't be defined by something shared with other people, it is not as individual as you are, and doesn't encompass your "legit" uniqueness not your "fantasized" uniqueness

"I am a narcissist" wrong. you are you.
"I suffer from narcisisism" would be more accruate
but honestly the dsm is a joke. and there is a myriad of filth and things that are blatantly false circling the "conversation" about narcissism taking place. You gotta watch out.

It does a better job making a people that have "narcissism" feel #######5 than it does for any kind of meaningful help. I realize it's a diagnostic manual, but sadly often times its the most secure footing people have on this thing in the first place.

I've come to start viewing it as a kind of arrested development stemming from C-PTSD. In this context it can be helpful to start moving towards viewing things as childish or mature. This is a helpful context to frame this disease in.

You really just need to stay away from triggering the toxic shame when you talk about narcissism. When you start to address the shame based identity and gain a capacity for healthy shame.

you must have this root and be nurturing it before you can expect any kind of results in an interpersonal sphere.

For the longest time I was afraid of Frederick Nietzsche because I thought he was supposed to be "dark" and I didn't want to "push myself over" to to speak but his work is especially insightful for understanding hot to heal this pain. People suffering from narcissism developed the damn thing in the first place to stay safe from

being vulnerable
feeling "bad" feelings

based on a shame-based identity

due to childhood trauma. (in my case perceived abandonment)

there is a lonely cold cave where the soul of a narcissistic person hides.

but they are people. who suffer. unnecessarily i might add.


Peace and love y'all <3