The Remorseless

I am not remorseless. At least, I don't think I am. Recently I over reacted when my son was playing loud music and I felt bad after and apologised for my reaction. Nothing physical, I just swore at him, something I virtually never do.

That said, I'm not sure if I genuinely felt bad that I made him feel bad, or if I simply didn't like the idea that he would think negatively of me.

I have committed crimes involving theft and drugs, but although I know that technically it was 'wrong' I don't actually feel anything about it.

Spaced wrote:I am not remorseless. At least, I don't think I am. Recently I over reacted when my son was playing loud music and I felt bad after and apologised for my reaction. Nothing physical, I just swore at him, something I virtually never do.

That said, I'm not sure if I genuinely felt bad that I made him feel bad, or if I simply didn't like the idea that he would think negatively of me.

I have committed crimes involving theft and drugs, but although I know that technically it was 'wrong' I don't actually feel anything about it.

The fact that you felt bad is literally guilt.

Narcissists couldn't give two f#cks if people like them or not, because people are extensions of themselves, and since the narcissist regards oneself as the ultimate being, also thinks everyone else do, even when they do not.

Midwinter wrote:Narcissists couldn't give two f#cks if people like them or not, because people are extensions of themselves, and since the narcissist regards oneself as the ultimate being, also thinks everyone else do, even when they do not

That doesn't seem completely accurate, otherwise narcissistic injuries would not occur.
It seems there is not much difference between being admired or hated in the sense that the other is giving you their energy in one way or another and somewhat feeding you.
But if the other simply becomes utterly uninterested in you, if you become a nothing to them, and they become indifferent to you, you might experience it as an injury.

Midwinter wrote:So do you think the narcissistic lack of remorse is caused by different psychological mechanisms than that of ASPD? Or do you think a lack of remorse in narcissists is touches of ASPD instead?

Narcissists lack remorse because their subconscious denies it. It's burried away as a protection of their own ego. They don't feel empathy towards others because the feelings of others could be offensive towards them, and therefore they avoid paying attention to them.

People with AsPD lack empathy because they literally cannot feel it, due to upbringing or a brain abnormality. They are not cold-blooded psycho's who plan in advance. They are color blind to the emotions of others. It's not a coping mechanism against perceived threats.

curiousjane wrote:

Midwinter wrote:Narcissists couldn't give two f#cks if people like them or not, because people are extensions of themselves, and since the narcissist regards oneself as the ultimate being, also thinks everyone else do, even when they do not

That doesn't seem completely accurate, otherwise narcissistic injuries would not occur.
It seems there is not much difference between being admired or hated in the sense that the other is giving you their energy in one way or another and somewhat feeding you.
But if the other simply becomes utterly uninterested in you, if you become a nothing to them, and they become indifferent to you, you might experience it as an injury.

I agree with this to the extent that people who require narcissistic supply and hence the regard of others care a great deal about what others think of them. In fact Middie's sig rather gives him away here.

I imagine what we're seeing here is not narcissism the disorder but narcissism the personal identity.

"I imagine what we're seeing here is not narcissism the disorder but narcissism the personal identity."

I often wonder about this. What is the difference between the two, that is, narcissism the disorder versus narcissism the personal identity?

In thinking further about Midwinter's comment about pwNPD not giving a s#$t about other's opinions, I wonder how that would fit with the DSM diagnostic criteria for NPD:

- Grandiose sense of self importance
- Fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance
- Belief in being special and unique
- Requires excessive admiration
- Sense of entitlement; unreasonable expectations of especial treatment
- Interpersonal exploitative
- Lacks empathy
-Envious of others
- Arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

It seems that these behaviors carry an inherent comparison in them - better than, above them, etc. And if that assessment and compliance is not confirmed by the other there is rage. That equation in itself indicates to me a dependency on outside recognition. If you truly don't give a s#$t about other people's opinions than you simply don't and their opinions of you will not cause you to react in any way.
This is very different than having no regard to other's opnions.

There seems to be mass confusion as to how the narcissistic structure really behaves. Let me try to clarify it for you.

The narcissistic personality structure is in need of admiration/validation. That is correct.

However, there is a difference between needing this, and not caring about others opinions. The narcissist will not feel the need to depend on peoples opinions like the histrionic would. He is always seeking to be free of others, yet his bane his that he needs admiration to fuel himself.

This forms itself as a paradoxical behaviour, where the narcissistic structure doesn't care what others has to say to him if it is bad, but he does care if it is good. He is an independent person that doesn't care if someone dislikes him (i.e. not caring about others opinions), simply because people disliking him only confirms that he is better than they are.

Narcissists are not licking ass on everyone to become friends. That is the histrionic. We do not care about you, what you have to say about me (unless it is positive), and we do not need you in our lives if you have no purpose. It's like a filter.

Midwinter wrote:He is an independent person that doesn't care if someone dislikes him (i.e. not caring about others opinions), simply because people disliking him only confirms that he is better than they are.
Narcissists are not licking ass on everyone to become friends. That is the histrionic.

I agree about the histronic personality disorder, but I don't agree with the statement that narcissists don't care about other people's opinions on them.
I want people to see my false self as I want it to be seen. If people dislike me (my false self), they become my enemies and yes, I don't lick their ass as a histronic would probably do.

Perhaps I should define what "care about" means to me when I use that expression.

If I have any reaction to someone's opinion of me - if I become enraged, or enamored, or my ego is inflated or I feel attacked, then I cared about their opinion. It affected me. There was a reflex response inside myself. My reaction to that effect (what I might then choose to do) could be to dismiss the person, to berate the person, to ensnare the person. And that is already a consequence to the effect their option has on me, not my first response.
If I don't care about their opinion then I don't.There is no reaction, internal or external. There is no emotion. There is nothing. If someone tells me that I am an idiot because I like cereal in the morning it will have no effect on me. There will be a blank, a non-response. I don't have to choose to ignore them or argue with them. It will be the same as if someone tells me they prefer oranges to bananas. It has NO EFFECT.

From my perspective the response we have to people's behaviors towards us can be divided in the different steps that comprise it. I don't know what all the steps are but I'm never satisfied with a conclusion that points to "this is a paradoxical behavior". If I have paradoxical behaviors I look further and deeper and I try to tease out where the paradox lays so I can understand it.

First step is the need for the energy from the other (admiration or negative emotions like feeling hurt).
Then you respond to that "feed of energy from the other" by dismissing them - which appears as if you don't care about them or their opinions - or you respond by giving back positive energy which will reinforce it.
Having no regard for other people's feelings or opinions is not what motivates your behavior. I think it is in fact a reaction to how much you actually care about other's opinions. Otherwise there would be no reaction at all (which is very different than a pathological lack of emotions. I'm referring to having zero response in a context but being capable of normal emotional range in general).